Author Topic: Bushcraft Fire Rolling  (Read 8168 times)

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Offline Chekmate

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Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« on: March 28, 2016, 10:59:38 AM »
I've seen fire rolling videos before but always in a controlled environment using milled lumber. I haven't been impressed as a woodlore or bushcraft skill. Wayne from "Kullcraven Bushcraft" takes this method to the bush.  Now this is something I have to learn and try.

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Offline Electric Cowboy

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2016, 06:10:56 PM »
Nice Find, I will be trying this.
Thanks for posting............ .
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Offline Aven

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 06:46:01 PM »
Never heard of a fire roll.

Thanks for sharing.
Seriously people, stop expecting normal from me.... We all know it's never gonna happen.

Offline Chekmate

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 06:45:51 PM »
Boggy Creek Beast has a whole youtube channel devoted to the fire roll.   Now I just have to take the things I always carry to the woods and see if I can make it work as a fire roll.

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Offline wolfy

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 07:09:41 PM »
I've never seen that method before.......works pretty well!  Be nice to actually use that method with natural 'found' material.  Certainly worth remembering and experimenting with.  Thanks for the share! :cheers:
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Offline madmax

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 08:29:49 AM »
That's very cool.  I've never seen that either.
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Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 11:28:13 AM »
I wonder if milkweed fluff would work?

Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2016, 12:09:48 PM »
Well, I am Gobbstopped.  What do the ashes do for the process?  There are soon going to be so many ways of starting a fire, your fire kit will need its own backpack.  But this is a good reason to carry jute twine.

OK, found another video on the subject and the guy does not use ashes (but says they help): http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1105326/pg1

He also says any natural plant fiber will work although some work better than others.  PFM!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:38:17 PM by Quenchcrack »
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2016, 02:31:06 PM »
Interesting and not anything I have heard about before.   :-\
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Offline Chekmate

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2016, 07:55:18 PM »
Before I saw Wayne at Kullcraven Outdoors do it in a wilderness setting.  I just thought it was a fad.   But now I've watched many videos done on "YouTube" by BoggyCreekBeast.   I'm gonna try to do the fire roll with what I carry when I go to the woods.  I always have cotton balls with Vaseline with me and jute twine.  Maybe I can combine the two.  Or just need to see what else I can use from the woods to get an ember with the fire roll.

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Offline weedeater64

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2016, 08:52:42 PM »
Wow that is way cool.

Gotta try that with some other materials found naturally.
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Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2016, 03:57:45 PM »
Really cool.  I'm going to try that.  What is the large-handled blade being used in the Kullcraft vid, does anyone know?

Offline wolfy

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2016, 04:11:30 PM »
I don't know but it looks like a cross between a knife and an English dueling pistol. ???
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Offline Aven

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Seriously people, stop expecting normal from me.... We all know it's never gonna happen.

Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2016, 05:54:25 PM »
I don't know but it looks like a cross between a knife and an English dueling pistol. ???

Yep!

I think it's a Silky Gomboy.
http://www.silkysaws.com/Silky_Saws/Folding-Straight_2/Silkys-GOMBOY-210mm-MED-Teeth-Hand-Saw

Thanks Aven.  Am I mistaken in thinking he had a large recurve blade and that saw?  I am also extremely curious about the ash's role as Quenchcrack asked.  Is it just being used a char to hold the spark, or is it important to the chemistry of the friction fire?

Offline Aven

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2016, 05:58:08 PM »
They make straight and curved blades.  Not sure about the Gomboy specifically, but I am positive about making both curved and straight blade folding saws.
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Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2016, 06:33:07 PM »
They make straight and curved blades.  Not sure about the Gomboy specifically, but I am positive about making both curved and straight blade folding saws.

I don't want to derail the the thread, but check out 4:33 of the vid, it's not a saw..  Silky Rocks BTW.  Anyway, I can't wait to try this method...

Offline Aven

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2016, 06:57:20 PM »
LOL  I should have known you were looking at the large blade.

The saw comes out at 1:55.
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Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2016, 07:26:41 PM »
LOL  I should have known you were looking at the large blade.

The saw comes out at 1:55.

LOL - You know what I like!

Offline Aven

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2016, 07:45:06 PM »
Yup I do.
 
I also know that once you get a good handle of this kind of friction fire, you'll teach it to your scouts, 'cuz that's just how you are.

I really want to give this method a go the next time I'm out in the piney forest.
Seriously people, stop expecting normal from me.... We all know it's never gonna happen.

Offline Chekmate

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2016, 05:35:30 PM »
Hey! Everyone,

Well it's easier than a bow or hand drill friction fire.  But still a bit of a learning curve.  I didn't have any ash but I did have some wood charcoal from the other night.  Friday night I ground up the charcoal and added it to some a cotton ball.  Then split a dry aspen (poplar) log smoothed both sides and gave it a try.   No good!   You don't want to smooth the wood to much.

On to Sunday evening.   Time for another try.   Split another aspen log, didn't prep it as much.   This time I mixed the charcoal with some wood dust when I cut the log and tried again.   Took a couple of tries.   The cotton ball ended up making two rolls.   But I did get a really good ember in one roll.  With a good birds nest even damp had a ember that would have started a fire.

Well to busy this week.  But I'll try again next weekend and with just what I usually carry and let you know how it's going.

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Offline Carson

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2016, 07:41:21 PM »
I just did a quick try on a short piece of 2x12 with a broken 8" piece of 2x4 to see about this method. It took me about 2 minutes to prepare the cotton ball/ash roll nice and tight then finish the tight roll with the two wood surfaces and start the back and forth. It took all of ten seconds to get a coal. I could smell it and took the cotton roll up and broke it in half and had two orange, smoking coals.

now I want to construct the parts from some cut firewood I have and try some natural tinders. With a cotton ball this surely is a whole lot easier than the bow drill...
Nor had I erred in my calculations, nor had I endured in vain. I at length felt that I was free. -Edgar Allen Poe

Offline Chekmate

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2016, 08:14:46 PM »
That it is Carson.   I've been working with the bow drill off and on for the last year.   I'm a long way from mastering it.    But I can see mastering the fire roll in a few months.   I always like to add an additional trick to my woodlore.

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Offline Carson

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2016, 01:41:09 PM »
I'm not sure sure but I'm guessing that the ash helps with the friction. Like in the video my cotton roll looked unburnt but it was wafting smoke that was coming from the inside of the roll. That is the only place it had an ember at first till broken open and ventilated.

I looked up wood ash and it looks to be all over the place with its properties, might contain potassium, sodium, zinc and carbonate and
Quote
Scanning electron micrographs showed large porous carbon particles and inorganic particles which reacted with water to form clusters of rosettes. X-ray diffraction patterns suggested that calcium silicate hydrate may be responsible for some of the swelling that occurs when ash and water react. 
Probaly depends on the heat that the wood was burned. I got my wood ash from my wood stove which leaves pure white ash.

Anyway it took me far less time to just do it than to type this post. I decided to try this 15 minutes before dinner, did it from scratch and still had time to pick a couple splinters out of my palm before dinner. It surely works.
Nor had I erred in my calculations, nor had I endured in vain. I at length felt that I was free. -Edgar Allen Poe

Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2016, 02:10:59 PM »
So the wood planks aren't really necessary for the fire roll to work, right? As long as you have something reasonably dry, and with enough friction to "grab" the cotton, it should work.


I wonder if juniper bark and ashes could be made to work...

Offline Chekmate

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2016, 06:34:34 AM »
I re-tried this morning after watching this video by "Boggycreekbeast" it worked right away.

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Offline Carson

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2016, 03:51:46 PM »


I wonder if juniper bark and ashes could be made to work...

I tried some well seasoned juniper bark and could not get it to stay together in a roll, it just disintegrated into power and small particles, fell apart. It is very easy using a cotton ball and I have easily replicated the first success. I tried it after a good hard rain when the air was full of humidity and no problem. Right now I don't see this as something that will be easily done from found materials like a bow drill though. At this point I would have to have cotton balls. It is fun to do and very easy but a mini Bic and BSA Hotspark are going to make more sense for my day to day wilderness tramping.
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Offline wjhames

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2016, 07:38:05 AM »
Very impressive.  I can't wait to try it.
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Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2016, 05:40:20 PM »
I was sitting at my picnic table and picked up some bark fiber and decided to try lighting them with this method.  I like it!


Offline Aven

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2016, 05:54:33 PM »
Nice job M.  This looks so easy to do.  Well, as long as you remember to pack real cotton balls.   :doh:

Hey, you you think it would have worked if you had used the table itself?
Seriously people, stop expecting normal from me.... We all know it's never gonna happen.

Offline mneedham

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2016, 06:20:24 PM »
Nice job M.  This looks so easy to do.  Well, as long as you remember to pack real cotton balls.   :doh:

Hey, you you think it would have worked if you had used the table itself?

Lol - Thanks.  I could have used the table, but it had a bunch of paint peeling off, so I thought I would use the board.  I'm going to try some natural materials in place of the cotton I think...  Thanks Chekmate, very cool!

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2018, 10:36:47 AM »
I posted this in May of 2016 on another forum in this link.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleoplanet69529/fire-roll-and-cord-drill-t63683.html
There is a list of vids that I found to be the most helpful when first learning this method in the link above.

My post mentioned above:



Been meaning to post about the Rudiger Fire Roll since at least the winter of 2014/15. Before that had heard of the concept yet was unable to locate any written or video how to's. This is what I had written back then but never posted here:


Anyone experimenting with the Rudiger Roll technique? This simple, easy, quick friction fire technique is also known as the Fire Roll aka Wool Skating aka Fire Skating. As far as I have been able to find so far this technique was first posted on the internet to PaleoPlanet on 12/23/2007 in posts #11 and #13 of this thread: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/2770/Fire-by-all-possible-ways   
Post #11 cites German TV. Post #13 cites this vid posted to YouTube by Rene "Baca" Ponya on 02/16/2008 of a German TV clip that aired in 2007.   
 

The brief backstory is Rudiger Nehberg, a German survival instructor, is universally credited with spreading this technique. There are rumors that people in WWII concentration camps used this method. BoggySwampBeast credits Gullrica with naming it the Fire Roll. Grigory1, BoggySwampBeast and Edu Gordo are the current masters of this technique having the most vids using the most materials. Tletlcalli Casa del Fuego and Rene "Baca" Ponya also have some good vids on this technique. David West has some instructional videos on the Rudiger Roll.

While it may not be documented to have been connected to any primitive cultures, the Rudiger Roll has been amply documented to easily make an ember on the spot with entirely natural materials gathered in situ using only paleo tools.

So far I have been successful with cotton plus ashes and milkweed stem fibers plus ashes. Grigory1 points out that overly processed cotton (such as medical grade) does not work as well as more natural cotton fluff. Dozens of natural fibers and grits/accelerants have been successfully used. Grits or accelerants are not necessary with all fibers but do tend to make achieving an ember faster and easier. Smaller, tighter rolls (such as using 1/3 of a cotton ball rather than a whole one) tend to work better.

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2018, 10:42:29 AM »
... Be nice to actually use that method with natural 'found' material.  Certainly worth remembering and experimenting with.


Your wish is my command! lol

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2018, 11:18:39 AM »
I wonder if milkweed fluff would work? 

In my limited experimentation it did not. The fibers do not "bind" aka "hold together" enough.


Perhaps with the addition of some other fibers? Native Americans mixed charred materials with uncharred to catch the sparks from F&S for centuries before European contact.

More than a decade ago when I was first experimenting with uncharred plant "downs" aka "fluffs" (milkweed, several thistles, etc) as primary tinder (replacing char) for catching sparks with F&S: I folded them. For some odd reason I was stuck on quantifying the exact best amount and method. You know, rather than just getting it to work more often than not! lol. Meanwhile a fellow posted that he was having consistent success with them by simply rolling them into a cotton ball like mess.

I tried that a few times...
And it has been my go to hundreds of times since.



So who knows what someone will come up with next?? Exciting!!!



Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2018, 11:27:29 AM »

Belated Congratulations to Checkmate, Carson and Mneedham!

Welcome to the club.
(My first success was in summer of 2013.)

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2018, 11:53:42 AM »
Nice job M.  This looks so easy to do.  Well, as long as you remember to pack real cotton balls.   :doh:

Hey, you you think it would have worked if you had used the table itself?
 

It may interest you to learn that there are more than two dozen natural fibers that can be gathered, processed and used to produce an ember right then and there using the Rudiger Fire Roll method of Friction Fire with nothing but paleo tools also made in situ. Of course modern tools and materials make things faster, easier and more reliable.

In other words, cotton balls are entirely optional. Just as charred cotton cloth is the easiet material to begin learning F&S with, so too are cotton balls and wood ashes for learning the Rudiger Roll. However in both cases they are only the tiny tip of a massive iceberg.

Yes. Any two surfaces that are rough enough to spin the Rudiger roll without shredding it can work. Rocks, bricks, driveways (asphalt or concrete), dimensional lumber (purchased from a hardware store), field expedient split wood, knife blades and handles, shovels, sanding block handles, sanding sponges, shoes, tables, etc have all worked.
 
Following the link I posted in my first post in this thread will get you started.

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2018, 12:00:25 PM »
Well, I am Gobbstopped.  What do the ashes do for the process?  There are soon going to be so many ways of starting a fire, your fire kit will need its own backpack.  But this is a good reason to carry jute twine.

OK, found another video on the subject and the guy does not use ashes (but says they help): http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1105326/pg1

He also says any natural plant fiber will work although some work better than others.  PFM! 
 

The grits (such as ashes) are not necessary with all fibers. They do seem to increase friction, making achieving an ember faster and more reliable. Pretty good link, thanks. Glad to see this method is picking up steam.

Offline theJman

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Re: Bushcraft Fire Rolling
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 08:58:10 PM »
What is the large-handled blade being used in the Kullcraft vid, does anyone know?

It's one of Tanners knives.  I believe he calls it Jessica X.