Author Topic: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century  (Read 998 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« on: May 25, 2018, 04:29:22 PM »
Don't know if any of you hear about this, but it did make National news 3 days ago.

I figured the incident might be good for a few comments....

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cougar-attack-washington-isaac-sederbaum-911-calls-sj-brooks-today-2018-05-23/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/us/washington-cougar-attack-leaves-mountain-biker-dead/index.html

I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Online wolfy

  • Supporting Member
  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18351
  • "You want a toe? I can get you a toe." -Sobchak
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 04:50:37 PM »
Yup...I did. :coffee:   Didn?t read the links, but I read that the cat was emaciated....only 100 lbs.
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
Augustus McCrae.....Texas Ranger      Lonesome Dove, TX

Offline madmax

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 9360
  • The Phoenix
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 05:25:00 PM »
   Kelly and I have been stalked by grizzlies twice in the Rockies.  Both times we met up with another group and the bears lost interest.  But they were pretty visible.  I think one was on Going to the Sun Road in Glacier.  Road closed.  Early spring.  Another in Canada.

    Mountain lions scare the $hit out of me.  They don't always let ya know they're there.  I've had house cats maul me.  No way I wanna die at the claws and fangs of a mountain lion.

     RIP.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving pretty with a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways in a cloud of smoke, thouroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, Wow! What a ride!" 
Hunter S, Thompson

Offline hayshaker

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 864
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2018, 08:18:20 PM »
In my early 30's i was preyed on by cougars many times.
it was when i was in hawaii. i survived though,
see they were all two legged kine.

Offline wsdstan

  • Supporting Member
  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 8621
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 09:21:25 PM »
We have a fair number of Cougars in the area we live.  Lots of young males who are looking for territory.  I think about five or six have been killed over the last five years or so.  No attacks.  I think this Washington Cougar was, as wolfy notes, suffering some kind of problem from an injury or disease and was looking for an easy meal. 
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
(Mark Twain)

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 10:21:49 PM »
Yup...I did. :coffee:   Didn?t read the links, but I read that the cat was emaciated....only 100 lbs.

Wolfy, you should have read 'em.

Well, when I first heard about this I was pretty grumpy.  I heard the cat weighed 100 lbs.  The guy who first got bit jumped on his bike and rode 2 miles to get a cell phone signal to call for help...while his female companion was dragged off and killed.  I wasn't sure how a guy could live, knowing his lady friend was killed while he took tail and ran from a cat he outweighed by probably 75 pounds.

Then I found the second article in my OP.  Her parents wanted her death reported as Sonja J. Brook...her birth name.  However, "S.J", as "he" was know to his transgender friends will be sorely missed in the biking community. From the picture in the article, S.J. probably weighed about 200 pounds, or more.  When "his" friend, Mr. Sederbaum, finally contacted 911, he was distraught and nearly hysterical.  A motorist who encountered him said, "He was very afraid, and wanted out of the woods".

This type of scenario in the past has generated a few comments about what some of us might do under similar circumstances.
I can only speak for myself, but I can't see myself abandoning my partner unless I was incapacitated myself. 

I spent many years hunting and fishing north of North Bend, WA just where this happened. I never even went fishing without being armed.  In those parts of the Cascades you might as well be in the middle of British Columbia.  These folks apparently didn't even have bear spray, let alone any kind of firearm. (Eeek! Guns are evil).
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Moe M.

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 8248
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2018, 06:29:04 AM »
 Not to stray too far from political correctness,  but you're right OP,  in my LE career I've had to work with and quite often against people caught up in situations that they could not fathom or ever imagine they'd be faced with,  there's a segment of our society who are inherently self reliant,  they recognize that there are real dangers in this world and that those dangers don't follow any rules of fair play or organized society, then there's those who don't have a clue,  quite often they're only armed with their ignorance and a good bit of arrogance.
 I've seen many big mouth citizens who actually believe that they can do or say anything they want to because they have a legal right to insult or to antagonize someone else without fear of retaliation suddenly become dumbstruck when they find themselves sitting on the ground with a busted nose.
 I remember one incident when I was called to a residence that was once a nice farm,  the new owner was from the suburbs and wasn't quite in tune with rural life,  anyway,  a young White Tail deer had gotten into the owners old barn and couldn't find it's way out,  the property owner demanded that I kill the deer and get rid of it,  like somehow that was my responsibility.
 I told him we had a few options but killing the deer needlessly wasn't one of them,  I told him that he could call the animal control officer,  he could call a nearby animal farm/petting zoo not too far away,  or he could simply open the barn doors and let the animal find his own way out and likely take to the woods in a hurry.
 At this point I received another call of a more serious nature,  about an hour later my dispatcher called out the rescue unit to the farm I had been at earlier,  seems the home owner figured he had wasted enough of his day worrying over the intruder in his barn and decided to take matters into his own hands (literally),  so he opened the barn door and stepped inside to try to hurry the deer off his property,  the deer it seems had more sense than the property owner.
 As soon as the deer saw an opening to escape being blocked by the menacing human he charged the opening,  to this day I have no clue why the owner just didn't step aside and let the deer pass,  but he didn't and the deer went at him striking out with his fore legs,  the home owner wasn't hurt seriously but was pretty beat up,  hopefully he learned a valuable lesson that day,  that some people and mother nature seldom do the expected,  and most of the time the only immediate help you can expect is at the ends of your own two arms,  oh, the deer got away clean.

 Thing is, if you don't know what you're doing, it's best to not do it until you get some advice from someone who does. 
 
   
   
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Online wolfy

  • Supporting Member
  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18351
  • "You want a toe? I can get you a toe." -Sobchak
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2018, 07:22:47 AM »
Well, Ol'P, I took your advice when you said I should have read the linked articles, so I went back and read them :hail:  In essence, it was pretty much the same information I'd already read.:coffee::coffee: We also have nationally syndicated newspapers and are hooked to internet news services & cable TV here in NEBRASKA, too, ya' know.  :lol: :cheers:

Did you see THIS.....
.
Wolf, dog, dogman or some mysterious creature? Montanans look for answers - www.greatfallstribu ne.com
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 08:21:16 AM by wolfy »
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
Augustus McCrae.....Texas Ranger      Lonesome Dove, TX

Offline hayshaker

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 864
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 07:52:51 AM »
be it woman or partner one should never abandon thier loveone .geeze'o pete what a coward.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 08:19:59 AM »
Not to stray too far from political correctness,  but you're right OP,  in my LE career I've had to work with and quite often against people caught up in situations that they could not fathom or ever imagine they'd be faced with,  there's a segment of our society who are inherently self reliant,  they recognize that there are real dangers in this world and that those dangers don't follow any rules of fair play or organized society, then there's those who don't have a clue,  quite often they're only armed with their ignorance and a good bit of arrogance...

Yup. There is a bike trail along the Sammamish River that runs from Gasworks Park to Lake Sammamish State Park, which my wife and I have ridden. It's 35 miles long and paved the whole way.  I think these guys thought there was no difference between that, and riding a logging road in the mountains above North Bend.  Roger on the ignorance....
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2018, 08:22:39 AM »
...

Did you see THIS.....
.
Wolf, dog, dogman or some mysterious creature? Montanans look for answers - www.greatfallstribu ne.com
Yes, I did hear about that. If we ever do get DNA results published, I vote for it being a coy-dog.  The short legs and coat seem to me to indicate domestic dog in there somewhere.
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Online wolfy

  • Supporting Member
  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18351
  • "You want a toe? I can get you a toe." -Sobchak
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2018, 08:24:33 AM »
...

Did you see THIS.....
.
Wolf, dog, dogman or some mysterious creature? Montanans look for answers - www.greatfallstribu ne.com
Yes, I did hear about that. If we ever do get DNA results published, I vote for it being a coy-dog.  The short legs and coat seem to me to indicate domestic dog in there somewhere.

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. :cheers:
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
Augustus McCrae.....Texas Ranger      Lonesome Dove, TX

Offline Phaedrus

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2018, 12:07:12 AM »
I can't imagine being unarmed in an area with dangerous animals.  Well, to be honest I'm armed most of the time, and while in more remote woods I often carry two sidearms.  I don't spend a lot of time in bear and big cat country but when I do I supplement the guns with Counter Assault bear spray.  This just my $.02, but I'm not sure how much I can blame the guy that fled. We all like to think we're heroic but being unexpected attacked by an apex predator would be a very scary thing.  Many years ago I dated a girl that worked for a zoo, and she took me in when they were closed to give me a tour.  The zoo had a pair of mountain lions there.  It was the first time I'd seen one in the flesh and it was astonishing!  Reading about them is one thing but when you're six feet from one it's hard to process just how big they look.  A two hundred pound cat looks like a horse!  And if you've ever handled a pissed off five pound cat imagine one forty times bigger.  The natural impulse would be to get the heck away from it.

Offline Mannlicher

  • Water Stone
  • ***
  • Posts: 2334
  • A Florida Cracker, and an original Kracaneuner
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2018, 05:41:12 AM »
not that I would engage in profiling or anything like that, but looking at the pictures of those involved answers a lot of questions.

Offline Moe M.

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 8248
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2018, 06:11:47 AM »
I can't imagine being unarmed in an area with dangerous animals.  Well, to be honest I'm armed most of the time, and while in more remote woods I often carry two sidearms.  I don't spend a lot of time in bear and big cat country but when I do I supplement the guns with Counter Assault bear spray.  This just my $.02, but I'm not sure how much I can blame the guy that fled. We all like to think we're heroic but being unexpected attacked by an apex predator would be a very scary thing.  Many years ago I dated a girl that worked for a zoo, and she took me in when they were closed to give me a tour.  The zoo had a pair of mountain lions there.  It was the first time I'd seen one in the flesh and it was astonishing!  Reading about them is one thing but when you're six feet from one it's hard to process just how big they look.  A two hundred pound cat looks like a horse!  And if you've ever handled a pissed off five pound cat imagine one forty times bigger.  The natural impulse would be to get the heck away from it.

  There are many ways to be armed,  such as recognizing that certain threats exist in the area you'll be staying in or traveling through, using situational awareness, having various weapons available capable of countering the threat such as a compressed air blast horn, bear spray, or firearms, a reaction plan in the event a threat does materialize,  and most Important the presents of mind to remain in control of your emotions and natural instincts.
  The problem for many people especially in today's world is that they aren't raised to recognize a lot of every day threats and dangers, that's why almost everything we buy today comes with an operations manual that contains about twenty pages of information, the first fifteen pages explain all the dangers that could be associated with using the product, the other few pages explain the product and how it functions, back in the day when I was raised my folks taught me to recognize dangers and take the necessary actions to avoid them,  like don't stick your tongue in an electric outlet, watch where you're stepping, don't piss off the neighbors dog, sharp things cut,  and don't pick fights with people and animals that are bigger, stronger, and dumber than you .
  Today kids are protected from thinking of or recognizing dangers or from having to deal with scary things,  they aren't allowed to fail anymore, in kids sports there are no more winners and losers, scores are no longer kept, college students now have cry rooms and safe rooms so that they can escape the responsibility of having to deal with things that they find disturbing,  is it any wonder that they are so easily prone to becoming victims of human or animal predators or even of their own emotions.
  I also hesitate to use the word coward to describe the young man who fled to find help, I'm sure fear had a great deal to do with his actions,  but I think it was more from the fear generated from not knowing what to do or how to react that caused him to take the actions that he did.
  One of the first things a person that is expected to face danger every day such as a police officer, fire fighter, or soldier learns is that training, role playing, and proper planning all work together to keep him/her alive and well,  in a stress situation the mind automatically starts searching it's stores of information for a solution to the problem that it is being confronted with,  if it has no training, no plan, and is not pre equipped to deal with the situation it either does nothing or chooses an action that distances them from the threat as quickly as possible.
  I think the guy that ran from the scene didn't even know what he was doing when he did it, he may have regained some of his senses when he was far enough from the action and decided the best thing to do was to get help for his injured friend,  but a doubt very much that he was thinking "better him than me, I'm out of here",  he wasn't being a coward, his mind didn't know what to do,  so it chose to get him as far away from the threat as possible in the shortest possible time. 
   
 
 
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline madmax

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 9360
  • The Phoenix
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2018, 06:33:29 AM »
   The recent problems with people in mind boggling ignorance are approaching and leaving food out for bears in the Smokies then complaining that the bears don't seem to care that the bears are invading the peoples' space come to mind.  There is no shortage of warnings to these touristas.

   Any summer's day, driving through Yellowstone you can observe the rangers trying to stop tourists from getting mauled or gored by wildlife.

   While snickering a little at Mannlicher's observation (I'm probably going to Hell for it),  I agree with Moe.  The man that ran was in "fight or flight" mode.  You can't predict that.  And it can be overwhelming.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 06:52:47 AM by madmax »
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving pretty with a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways in a cloud of smoke, thouroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, Wow! What a ride!" 
Hunter S, Thompson

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2018, 11:31:30 AM »
Good observations, Moe.
According to the one article, the two did everything they were supposed to do. The yelled, waved their arms, and on the first approach by the cat they even hit it with one of their bikes (weapon?).  But then they let their guard down, thinking it was over. That's when the survivor was first bitten on the head and neck.  The cat came back for a second attempt at a meal.  It was determined.  But had they not mistakenly assumed the event was over, they might have put up more of a fight.
As Moe said about training, most folks these days have never had to deal with bodily injury, pain, or even been in a real fight.  One of the things LEOs are trained in is knowing what's a lethal injury, and what is just an inconvenient injury.  A lot of officers have died just because they were shot, and assumed that was the end.  In a few cases, they died of "non-lethal" injuries.
Like the woman the survivor encountered said in the background on the 911 call, "You're not going to die!".  He probably thought he would.  We've all agreed in survival situations, you mind is your greatest survival tool...and it can be your worst enemy, also.
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Phaedrus

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2018, 01:32:52 AM »

  There are many ways to be armed,  such as recognizing that certain threats exist in the area you'll be staying in or traveling through, using situational awareness, having various weapons available capable of countering the threat such as a compressed air blast horn, bear spray, or firearms, a reaction plan in the event a threat does materialize,  and most Important the presents of mind to remain in control of your emotions and natural instincts.
 

I can't remember who first said it, but I recall reading a guy repeat that anyone that hasn't unknowingly or knowingly been stalked by a mountain lion hasn't much time in their territory.  One pretty common theme in Big Cat attacks that I'm aware of is that most of the time the animal is on you before you even know it's there.  They're extraordinarily stealthy which is probably why they're been around for so long.  Situational awareness is great but it's often no match for a lion.  And of course, in this case the cat was not dissuaded by noise having apparently been emaciated and starving.  You have a point- someone more experienced might have had a better idea what to do.  But it appears the cat was desperate for a meal so being armed with knowledge might not have been enough.  Knowledge and a weapon would have been better.

Offline Orbean

  • Water Stone
  • ***
  • Posts: 1188
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2018, 07:07:11 AM »
I ride a mt bike and lion attacks are definitely on my mind, the bike seems to trigger cats. Most recent attacks have happened to mt bikers. Having said that what kills me it that some involve people riding together, there is no reason for that person's death. If you ride in the woods and don't know about cougar attacks and mt bikes then well you get what you deserve. When riding I always go with at least on person, and armed, I carry either a pistol or spray, usually spray.

I might be an ass but I have almost no feelings for the people that get caught in these situations. One scenario that makes me shake my head is when tourist get lost and die in the desert here in NM. Last year a family from france went hiking at white sand national monument, on an easy trail, with very little water, no navigation skills and in the middle of the summer. The previous year, a couple of young kids got lost in the desert, one kid stabbed the other kid at the request of the victim, and then was later rescued. I remember as a kid at my grandpa's ranch, they would always make us carry canteens when we were out playing, and my dad made sure I had a bic lighter on me.

Encounters with cats is becoming more common. I hear first hand accounts more and more. A guy who has place in the Jemez had his two dogs killed, my cousin was followed by a cat while he was on a horse last year, and me and other family members heard one screaming last summer. Hell this is nothing, wait till wolves are back and the grizzly ends up back in its natural areas of NM. 
Nice matters

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2018, 07:50:27 AM »
.... Hell this is nothing, wait till wolves are back and the grizzly ends up back in its natural areas of NM.

One thing about wolves and bears: they don't view us as food, like cats often do.  With them, you are either seen as a threat, or you'r left alone.

Just my opinion, but I think the reason bikers are often targets is because cats are attracted to moving objects. Just watch you pet cat.  A person whizzing along on a bike doesn't spell "human" to them.  It's too similar to a running deer.
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Orbean

  • Water Stone
  • ***
  • Posts: 1188
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2018, 08:38:56 AM »
.... Hell this is nothing, wait till wolves are back and the grizzly ends up back in its natural areas of NM.

One thing about wolves and bears: they don't view us as food, like cats often do.  With them, you are either seen as a threat, or you'r left alone.

Just my opinion, but I think the reason bikers are often targets is because cats are attracted to moving objects. Just watch you pet cat.  A person whizzing along on a bike doesn't spell "human" to them.  It's too similar to a running deer.

I agree, it creeps me out, they hit mt bikers from behind. Cats are ambush predators, they have to be really hungry or sick to try prey their own size or bigger head on. However I have recently seen a youtube video of a mt biker spraying a couple of males hunting together, they did not do much to hide their approach. All I have been told and read it that they hunt solo and ambush you, but a hunting pair is beyond scary. The guy that lost his dogs thinks they were killed by a pair hunting in cooperation.

When in cougar country I am always on guard, my family's ranch is prime territory. When we  have family outings, there are kids and dogs to worry about. When biking I always look for what  could be an ambush place, it might be silly but the thought of a 150 carnivore bitting the back of my neck attempting suffocate me and begin to eat me while I lay there with my neck broken, maybe still alive. Cougars are the ONLY animal I fear in the woods. A black bear will eat you, but you get a warning and at least one chance to stop it, wolves will eat you but only when other animals are hard to find, and like a bear will confront you. A lion gives you no warning

 

 There are many cases of wolves eating humans throughout history, the only reason there not many wolf attacks in north America is because there are not many of them. I do agree they don't live and den near humans but when your are in their "hood" all bets are off. A young hunter in catron county nm was stalked and cornered by a pack several years ago. His cool thinking and family close by ended what could have been ugly. 
Nice matters

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2018, 09:07:17 AM »
.... Hell this is nothing, wait till wolves are back and the grizzly ends up back in its natural areas of NM.

One thing about wolves and bears: they don't view us as food, like cats often do.  With them, you are either seen as a threat, or you'r left alone.

Just my opinion, but I think the reason bikers are often targets is because cats are attracted to moving objects. Just watch you pet cat.  A person whizzing along on a bike doesn't spell "human" to them.  It's too similar to a running deer.

I agree, it creeps me out, they hit mt bikers from behind. Cats are ambush predators, they have to be really hungry or sick to try prey their own size or bigger head on. However I have recently seen a youtube video of a mt biker spraying a couple of males hunting together, they did not do much to hide their approach. All I have been told and read it that they hunt solo and ambush you, but a hunting pair is beyond scary. The guy that lost his dogs thinks they were killed by a pair hunting in cooperation.

Two males hunting together would be unusual, and scary.  A mother teaching her 2-year-old hunting techniques wouldn't surprise me.

When in cougar country I am always on guard, my family's ranch is prime territory. When we  have family outings, there are kids and dogs to worry about. When biking I always look for what  could be an ambush place, it might be silly but the thought of a 150 carnivore bitting the back of my neck attempting suffocate me and begin to eat me while I lay there with my neck broken, maybe still alive. Cougars are the ONLY animal I fear in the woods. A black bear will eat you, but you get a warning and at least one chance to stop it, wolves will eat you but only when other animals are hard to find, and like a bear will confront you. A lion gives you no warning

 

 There are many cases of wolves eating humans throughout history, the only reason there not many wolf attacks in north America is because there are not many of them. I do agree they don't live and den near humans but when your are in their "hood" all bets are off. A young hunter in catron county nm was stalked and cornered by a pack several years ago. His cool thinking and family close by ended what could have been ugly.

I have 11 documented wolf packs ("tribes") living within a 40 mile radius of me.  Attacks on humans here is virtually unheard of, and now that we have a hunting season for wolves, they understand they're not at the top of the food chain anymore. LOL
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Orbean

  • Water Stone
  • ***
  • Posts: 1188
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 11:15:54 AM »
There have been over seventy wolf attacks both aggressive and non-aggressive  on humans in the twentieth century in Canada and Alaska my source ( a case history of wolf-human encounters in Alaska and Canada. By Mark McNay. Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Wildlife Technical Bulletin 13. 2002) and I stand by what I say with the re-introduction of wolves into national forest that are also used by humans it is inevitable human wolf interactions will end up with dead people. I have more studies, this was the handiest one. People are eaten every year in Siberia.


Just like Mountain lion attacks are increasing, the reason an increase in their populations and human activity in lion habitat. Wolves will be the same way. The arguement that wolves have stayed away from people is because where you live is a game rich enviroment, but what about  here in the southwest, where not every hunting tag gets filled and the best hunters can get stunked. When game is scarce where will wolves look for a meal, where ever they can find one. Wolf behavior i would think is influenced by the  enviroment it lives in.
Nice matters

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2018, 12:27:20 PM »
There have been over seventy wolf attacks both aggressive and non-aggressive  on humans in the twentieth century in Canada and Alaska my source ( a case history of wolf-human encounters in Alaska and Canada. By Mark McNay. Alaska Department of Fish and Game. Wildlife Technical Bulletin 13. 2002) and I stand by what I say with the re-introduction of wolves into national forest that are also used by humans it is inevitable human wolf interactions will end up with dead people. I have more studies, this was the handiest one. People are eaten every year in Siberia.


Just like Mountain lion attacks are increasing, the reason an increase in their populations and human activity in lion habitat. Wolves will be the same way. The arguement that wolves have stayed away from people is because where you live is a game rich enviroment, but what about  here in the southwest, where not every hunting tag gets filled and the best hunters can get stunked. When game is scarce where will wolves look for a meal, where ever they can find one. Wolf behavior i would think is influenced by the  enviroment it lives in.
I agree with you on all your points. 
When wolves and people live together, there is a symbiosis that develops.  Mutual respect, if you want to call it that.  Of course there are conflicts, that's why Montana now has open season on wolves...not to eradicate them, but to maintain balance.  When a wolf invades human territory, they risk getting shot.  When an unprepared human invades wolf territory, they run the risk of a lethal response.

When wolves expand their territory, it's a normal assimilation for the wolves, wildlife and human inhabitants.  But when wolves are artificially "dumped" into unfamiliar territory, their first instinct is to survive...and that means preying on anything weaker than themselves.  Conversely, the relatively rapid change to the environment (e.g. wolves where they haven't been in decades) is not appreciated by local humans who haven't been conditioned to recognize the situational change.  There will be more conflicts under these circumstances, due to ignorance both on the part of the wolves, and the humans.

The conversation went from cougars to wolves, but we don't "re-introduce" big cats into forests the way we do wolves, so threat assessment where wolves are concerned is necessary.  Where wolves have been transplanted, folks need to understand that it ain't "the same old neighborhood" where they used to hike with no worries.
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline wsdstan

  • Supporting Member
  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 8621
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2018, 01:28:13 PM »
You say that Bears don't view us as food..........
Polar Bears do.

My source is Ray Mears and Wikipedia. 

Here is a bit about black bears as well.  Just drop down to bears on the list of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-eater#Bears
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
(Mark Twain)

Offline Phaedrus

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2018, 02:57:12 PM »
Mountain biking is particularly fraught; it seems to strongly trigger the prey drive of wolves and big cats.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2018, 03:34:12 PM »
You say that Bears don't view us as food..........
Polar Bears do.

My source is Ray Mears and Wikipedia. 

Here is a bit about black bears as well.  Just drop down to bears on the list of animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-eater#Bears
I noticed that for Black Bear, the one and only recorded death in NJ was also the only one in the CONUS for that period (7 years).
Brown Bear and Griz (or together if you believe that), are a whole different story.  The only excuse they need to eat you is if you piss 'em off, and almost EVERYTHING pisses 'em off!
It's also noteworthy that the only Griz attacks in the CONUS were in or near Parks, where any type of hunting or discharging firearms is prohibited (until recently).  Bears might have small brains, but they ain't stoopid.  No fear of consequences = everything is on the menu.
With such small snippets of details, I noticed that the Notes always referred to 'body'.  It never mentioned "remains".  Although the attacks may have been predatory in nature, it's open for conjecture that the goal was to actually eat the victim.  There have been plenty of reports from Canada, Alaska and the Yukon where partially devoured remains have been found, but even then the feast could have ensued postmortem by wolves, coyotes, wolverine, etc., etc.

For the record, I have the utmost respect and caution toward N. America's apex predators.  I try to understand them, and be wary of their individual idiosyncrasies.  Live, and let live, I say.  I've had close encounters with all of them, and we've both walked away in peace.  I think a lot of the fear instilled toward wolves, black bears and cougar are unsupported by personal experience with them.  I brought a dog back with me from my 3 years in Alaska who was 3/4 gray wolf.  He was an amazing animal.
That said, the one exception I make is brown bear/grizzly.  They are near sighted, ill-tempered, irrational and I want nothing to do with them.  My introduction to brown bear was along the Cassiar-Stewart Hwy just south of The Yukon. One night the mini-motorhome started rocking and we thought it was an earthquake. The next morning I found muddy paw prints on the roof gutter 11 feet above the ground.  Then ran into a guy who saw the boar, and he said it was the size of a Camero!  No thank you!
:cheers: :popcorn:
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Online wolfy

  • Supporting Member
  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 18351
  • "You want a toe? I can get you a toe." -Sobchak
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2018, 04:18:34 PM »
FROM BWCAW.COM....
"Jul 12, 2017 In the last month, there have been four black bear attacks with two fatalities and three hurt in Alaska, Wisconsin and Colorado. Three of the four were confirmed predatory attacks."

I have canoed wilderness areas in parts of this country & Canada that are frequented by both grizz and black bears. I  have only seen 4 grizzlies from a semi-comfortable distance in all of my years.  However, I've seen and had more 'up close & personal' encounters with black bears and felt in much more danger than I ever felt from a grizz.  If I never saw another one I wouldn't feel a bit bad about it.  Just their sheer numbers and being more tolerant and actually preferring inhabiting areas where more people generally travel make them MUCH more dangerous to humans than catamounts or grizz.....IMHO.  I hate the sunzabiches!  :pissed:
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
Augustus McCrae.....Texas Ranger      Lonesome Dove, TX

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 16212
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2018, 08:43:49 PM »
When I was in Alaska, there was a female surveyor working a lake across Cook Inlet south of Fairbanks.  She debarked the pontoon plane in which she arrived, and spent some time taking measurements and making notes along the shore.  Finally she waded out to a small shoal at the lake shore and was making some final notes when a black bear attacked her from behind.  She and the bear fought in the water until her pilot maneuvered the plane close enough he could ram the bear with a pontoon, and got it between her and the bear. He had to help her onto the float and into the plane.  Back in Anchorage, she got out of the hospital minus both arms.

Around the same time on the Kenai Peninsula, a fellow was walking  from his car to the mouth of a tributary of the Russian River at a place called Clam Gulch.  It's a very popular place with sometimes 100 cars parked along the highway and access road when the salmon are running.  There's a road all the way down to the beach, but the mouth of the creek is to the east, and there is a large grass meadow about 200 yds across that some people cut through as a shortcut.  This guy was walking along the shortcut trail in grass about waist high when a brown bear took him.  Deader'n a hobnail in 8 seconds flat.  It all happened within 100 yds of maybe 75 people and nobody even heard him yell.

Pick yer poison. Nothing with fangs and claws is 'safe' when you're in their living room.
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Phaedrus

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: 1st fatal cougar attack in Washington in nearly a century
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2018, 10:42:09 PM »
If a critter gets me I hope he has to spit out a dozen empty brass casings as he chows down!  I plan to go down swinging- ie shooting, stabbing, maybe punching as a last resort.