Author Topic: Random thoughts and observations  (Read 891 times)

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Offline Old Philosopher

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Random thoughts and observations
« on: June 11, 2018, 01:13:00 AM »
A couple days ago I was standing in line at our local grocery store.  There were three people ahead of me. The guy who was checking out was wearing an M1911 on his right hip.  The fellow just behind him was carrying something in a rawhide sheath about 10" long that obviously didn't come from a box store, and the woman just ahead of me had a nice little custom blade about 5" in a wet-formed sheath.
My first thought was, "God Bless Montana!".
But then a second realization came to me.  "Always be polite to a woman with a knife on her belt. She probably knows how to use it!"
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 06:23:27 AM »
A couple days ago I was standing in line at our local grocery store.  There were three people ahead of me. The guy who was checking out was wearing an M1911 on his right hip.  The fellow just behind him was carrying something in a rawhide sheath about 10" long that obviously didn't come from a box store, and the woman just ahead of me had a nice little custom blade about 5" in a wet-formed sheath.
My first thought was, "God Bless Montana!".
But then a second realization came to me.  "Always be polite to a woman with a knife on her belt. She probably knows how to use it!"

  Not many stores of any kind like that left in this country today,  maybe a few down your way and some up in New Hampshire,  sad, really sad,  in my state carrying exposed or carrying a fixed blade knife or folder with a blade over 2-1/2" unless you're hunting, fishing, or camping will get you arrested,  they call it menacing, go figure. 
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Offline madmax

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 06:59:25 AM »
While in FL we don't have open carry I travel to states that do every year.  One instance we were eating in a small southern diner and an elderly couple sat down next to us.  His gun peeked out from under his shirt.  It was a revolver in a very worn holster.  I had my pocket pistol in my pocket but I thought about how much quicker that geezer could draw that old revolver than I could dig out my semi- auto.  I felt pretty good knowing he was there and probably half the diners were carrying.


But this is FL.  And we have some real rabid nuts.  On both sides of the issue.  I decided long ago open carry here would cause more problems for 2A people than it would help.  We can open carry camping, fishing, or going to/at the range.  Pretty much everybody open carries when the Kracs camp.

We were in Arizona many moons ago.  I think Sedona.  We went into a shop with hides for sale.  The owner had a revolver on his hip.  A couple came in and the wide eyed woman asked if those skins were real.  Then she saw his sidearm.  I've seen some meltdowns along the years but she took the cake.  We left quickly but heard her for blocks.  My guess it was her first time out of SoCal.
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Offline hayshaker

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 07:31:15 AM »
i remember back in 1987 when i first came to fla,
i saw some folks open carry like the guy at the grocery store
with a 8,in bbl 357mag under his arm. but that was then mabey the commies took over since then.

Offline wolfy

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 08:28:14 AM »
We have to obtain a CCW permit to conceal here in NEBRASKA, but I can't even remember when open carry was not permitted.  Not many people carry unconcealed around here.....or probably even carry concealed for that matter, but of course I have no way of knowing that for certain.   Most of my friends are are 'gun nuts' and hardly any of them carry on a regular basis.  I've known of only ONE gun-related murder in my town in my entire lifetime and even if the victim had been armed, it wouldn't have done him any good.  About the only time your life would really be endangered around here would be from the occasional ornery varmint or catamount that wanders through looking for a mate.  I carry a 1911 in the pickup since my unfriendly encounter with a feral pit bull a few years ago, but I've got more than enough crap in my bib pockets now, without adding a 3 lb. handgun to the mix. :coffee:
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 03:21:18 PM »
In my nearly - fifty -year's life I've only seen OC a couple of times outside of in the field during hunting seasons. Once was 2 years ago at a movie theater that was posted 'no firearms' so that surprised me. The disconcerting thing was that it was in a $10 holster that had no structure or retention.  ;D Most folks here that carry tend to CCW (as I do ). On the plus side OC offers quick access to the sidearm but I prefer to keep a lower profile.

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 03:26:57 PM »

My first thought was, "God Bless Montana!".


I was hoping to move to Montana. Recently I had some job interviews inn Montana,  Idaho and Washington.  Wound up taking the one in Coeur D'Alene. Idaho has great gun laws so I think it will work out fine. There should be ample opportunities for bushcraft there.  8)

Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 03:41:36 PM »

My first thought was, "God Bless Montana!".


I was hoping to move to Montana. Recently I had some job interviews inn Montana,  Idaho and Washington.  Wound up taking the one in Coeur D'Alene. Idaho has great gun laws so I think it will work out fine. There should be ample opportunities for bushcraft there.  8)
Isn't Ruby Ridge in Idaho?  ???
Just stay straight with the authorities there. Every sheriff, constable, trooper and dog catcher is someone's brother, nephew, cousin, uncle, spouse, or all of the above.
Coeur D'Alene is a great part of the state.  It's far enough south of Hayden Lake, and northwest of the lava fields that you should have a good time hunting, fishing and boating.
I spent a lot of time around the Lake when I lived in Spokane.  I spent a year+ in a little town east of Boise, also.  Recreation-wise, I prefer the northern part of the State, as long as you don't get TOO far north.  Remember the movie "Deliverance"?
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 04:45:04 PM »
Haha, I assumed Deliverance was in the south but it has been several decades since I saw it. :D  Hopefully I'll have time for plenty of camping and some fishing. I think maybe they have salmon there?

Offline lgm

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 04:57:22 PM »
I have seen open carry a fair amount here.I assume everyone I meet is armed, a armed society is a polite society.
Our church even has a security force staffed from the parishioners.
I saw a man open carrying once with a empty mag well. I discreetly pointed out what I though was a lost mag. He told me he keeps the mag in his pocket.  Not the way I would go but whatever. I see fixed blades less often.
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Offline crashdive123

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 07:02:57 PM »
I love open carry.  Should be legal everywhere.

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 09:54:10 PM »
I love open carry.  Should be legal everywhere.

I'm not a fan at all.  Let me hasten to add that I'm not bothered by other folks doing it nor do I want the practice banned- far from it.  But I don't think it makes much sense (again, speaking only for myself).  Lots of folks will say that being visibly armed will deter attacks.  That's certainly possible, although I'll note that cops still get attacked despite being visibly armed and even though most folks understand that they wear body armor.  In my mind, a gun grab is a serious risk but it's hard to imagine anyone grabbing your gun if they don't know you have one. ;)  I'd rather be low profile, broadcasting nothing to anyone.  That extends to my attire, and while I do own some firearms related clothing I normally limit it to range trips or camping trips (although I'll admit that today I wore my Aimpoint ball cap, the only clean/presentable one I could locate on the way out of the house).

How other folks conduct their lives is certainly no business of mine, and if you and I ever cross paths and you're OC'ing I will certainly not be offended or hold it against you. :D  Mine however will be concealed. 8)

Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 12:20:52 AM »
Haha, I assumed Deliverance was in the south but it has been several decades since I saw it. :D  Hopefully I'll have time for plenty of camping and some fishing. I think maybe they have salmon there?
Same mind-set, different neighborhood.
Yes, they have salmon that run through Idaho up the Clark Fork River.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 12:31:14 AM »
I love open carry.  Should be legal everywhere.

I'm not a fan at all.  Let me hasten to add that I'm not bothered by other folks doing it nor do I want the practice banned- far from it.  But I don't think it makes much sense (again, speaking only for myself).  Lots of folks will say that being visibly armed will deter attacks.  That's certainly possible, although I'll note that cops still get attacked despite being visibly armed and even though most folks understand that they wear body armor.  In my mind, a gun grab is a serious risk but it's hard to imagine anyone grabbing your gun if they don't know you have one. ;)  I'd rather be low profile, broadcasting nothing to anyone.  That extends to my attire, and while I do own some firearms related clothing I normally limit it to range trips or camping trips (although I'll admit that today I wore my Aimpoint ball cap, the only clean/presentable one I could locate on the way out of the house).

How other folks conduct their lives is certainly no business of mine, and if you and I ever cross paths and you're OC'ing I will certainly not be offended or hold it against you. :D  Mine however will be concealed. 8)
I was sorry to see my neighbor across the road move.  He carried his Glock even when mowing his lawn. He could have left a pot of gold in the middle of his yard, and there would have been no takers.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 12:32:41 AM »
... an armed society is a polite society. ...

:cheers: :hail:
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 06:15:08 AM »
  I'm also not a fan of open carry nor am I offended by it,  my reasons are that many if not most of us live in a time where firearms have been so demonized that the mere sight of one in a picture offends some people and with others the mere presents of one makes them visibly ill, it's sad, but true.
  I understand that there are pockets of conservativism in this country where more people than not go armed every where every day, in the bordering state of NH it's almost impossible to go anywhere and not see someone carrying a firearm, many exposed,  I've read that in some of the western states it's the same way.
  But up here in the north east and in other areas of the country, many sadly,  probably more people than not are afraid of guns, and likely,  more afraid of people who carry them,  so in those areas where guns don't scare people and where they are common then open carry is fine by me,  but in my opinion where they scare or offend folks concealed carry is the better option.
  Now I know that this is just about the time where some folks reading this are ready to jump ugly with me saying "If they're scared or offended by my gun, screw 'em, it's my right under the Second amendment, I don't give a crap what they think or want",  well, you should care because they may be the people who are sitting on the fence about gun control, and your scaring them may just push them over to the anti side.
  I had a friend once (he crossed over) named Frank, I don't know much about his early life but I do know that after high school he joined the Army, ended up in the Air Cav and flew slicks in Viet Nam doing insertions and extractions, he loved history, was a rabid conservative,  and was big into re enacting (rev war and civil war).
  Frank also never missed an opportunity to teach people about our American history and the importance of the role that an armed citizenry played in it,  Frank used to spend hours researching local history and one day stumbled on an old RI law that gave RI citizens the right to carry a firearm without licensing if they were carried in plain view, he made a bunch of copies of the document, stuck one in his wallet and from that time on Frank would always be seen carrying a 1911 on his belt where ever he went except for schools and public buildings.
  To most Rhode Islanders carrying a gun without a license is against the law, and open carry is not allowed,  so Frank in the beginning got himself arrested quite a few times, but in each case as soon as he produced his copy of the old out dated (late 1800's) forgotten about law he judge was forced to let him go without a fine or court costs, it didn't take long for the word to make the rounds of the local LE agencies in the state and while Frank was deemed a bit quirky, he was left alone.
  Frank was one of the smartest guys I've ever known, but when it came to making that one point I really think he did more harm to the Second amendment than he helped it,  he managed to effect ordinary citizens in a negative than a positive way every time he walked into a Dunkin' donuts, Walmart, or gas station and scared the crap out of an attendant or soccer mom customer that he met up with.
  I also remember reading about a woman open carry champion who started a riot somewhere in the Carolina's at a Pop Warner baseball game one day when she climbed into the bleachers armed with a big pistol strapped to her hip, another woman spotted the gun and ran off the bleachers with her kids in tow and screaming GUN,  a couple of people grabbed the woman with the gun and in the process of disarming her beat the crap out of her,  it was determined that she was carrying legally and no charges were brought against anyone involved,  but in retrospect, the smart thing to do would have been to leave the gun at home, or get a conceal carry license.
 
 
 
   
 
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 09:03:58 AM »
I'd like everyone to look up the word "hoplophobia".  But Moe is right, you can't argue with, or convince a psychotic of anything.
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 02:27:12 PM »
True, the social aspect is a valid point. But for me it's more of a tactical concern; I'd rather keep my capabilities to myself.

Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 03:07:53 PM »
The issue, as I see it, is that if a thug or would-be shooter starts to act out, by the time someone who is CC responds, the situation as already escalated to a lethal level.  I firmly believe that open carry is a deterrent, and can prevent an incident from even developing.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2018, 04:34:28 PM »
I'd like everyone to look up the word "hoplophobia".  But Moe is right, you can't argue with, or convince a psychotic of anything.

I KNOW! I KNOW!  I don't even have to look it up. 8)   HOPLOPHOBE is the term coined by Col. Jeff Cooper to describe people who are scared to death of even pictures of GUNS. :shocked:
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Offline Orbean

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 06:13:26 AM »
I too am not a fan of open carry. I recently saw a man in a restaurant carrying a large revolver, 8 inch barrel on his hip with a gun belt. There is no way he could get that weapon out fast enough if he had too. I believe he wore it because he thought it looked cool. Love the idea of concealed carry even if you have to get a license for it. I too believe an armed society is a better behaved society.

If I thought I had to be armed to mow the yard moving from that area would be a  priority. There is such a thing as over the top and unfortunately I see it way too often.
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2018, 02:09:55 AM »
The issue, as I see it, is that if a thug or would-be shooter starts to act out, by the time someone who is CC responds, the situation as already escalated to a lethal level.  I firmly believe that open carry is a deterrent, and can prevent an incident from even developing.

I suppose there's a risk that this could spiral down into anarchy like most OC vs CC threads do at the gun forums, so with it's with some trepidation that I'll interject my $.02 worth, with the caveat that it's simply my opinion.  I'm no secret squirrel and I've never served door as gunner on the space shuttle, I'm Just A Regular Guy. O:-)  Just anecdotally I'm aware of some situations where a guy pulled back their shirt or coat to reveal a sidearm and instantly diffused a bad situation, so I know it happens.  But I'm also aware of at least a couple of well documented cases where an OC'er had someone grab their gun and at least one where a guy was outright robbed and had his OC'd gun stolen at gunpoint.  At a minimum anyone OCing needs to have excellent situational awareness and really should have some unarmed skills, especially some training/practice at retention drills.  It would always suck to get shot but it would have to suck even harder to get shot with your own gun.

Let's say you're out and about and something goes down.  Maybe you're in a C-store and someone walks in with a shotgun and tells the cashier to empty the register.  If you're carrying concealed you have some options; maybe you'll just watch, maybe you'll wait and see how it plays out.  Maybe you'll "wait your turn" and draw when the bad guy's attention is elsewhere.  But I feel that if you're open carrying and the bad guy sees your gun, the issue will be forced.  If you draw against the drop you might have a very bad day but if you don't the bad guy might simply shoot you or demand your gun.  That's a scenario with more bad options than good ones.

Again, you might see if differently than me.  I get that and I understand.  I'm just explaining my viewpoint based on my skills and prior planning.  YMMV. :cheers:
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 02:15:43 AM by Phaedrus »

Offline Orbean

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2018, 06:10:32 AM »
True, the social aspect is a valid point. But for me it's more of a tactical concern; I'd rather keep my capabilities to myself.

Basic tenant of self defense. Outside my family and close friends nobody knows I studied Kempo for well over twenty years. I don't broadcast my abilities, takes away the element of surprise. At my size, 160lbs and 5'10" I have surprised more than one wantabe bully
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2018, 06:16:30 AM »
The issue, as I see it, is that if a thug or would-be shooter starts to act out, by the time someone who is CC responds, the situation as already escalated to a lethal level.  I firmly believe that open carry is a deterrent, and can prevent an incident from even developing.

  Well I can't argue with you there OP,  and that's what makes these debates a little silly sometimes, usually there is no cut and dried case to be made for one over the other,  what gun or what mode of carry is not best in all situations, it's the situation at hand that determines what's best at the time, certainly not the one in possession of the weapon,  you can decide for yourself what's right for you,  but each event is different in some way, and your's way may not be the best way every time.
  One example that proves your point,  the Wife and I used to spend much of our off time camping and vacationing on Cape Cod,  it's only about an hour and a half drive for us to get to the tip of the Cape,  there isn't anything on the Cape that's not fun or exciting.
  As the kids got into their mid teen years they were more pre occupied with doing teen things and came with us less often,  we especially liked camping in the fall, the weather is better, the crowds have thinned out,  the prices have gone down, and the trout fishing gets better.
  So one fall a couple of years before I retired we managed to grab a long weekend,  packed the Van and headed for Brewster and our favorite State run management area and camp ground,  just before the Wareham exit off the highway there's a rest area with toilet facilities, it's another 25 minutes to the camp ground, so we pull off to take care of business,  while my wife is occupied I'm having a look around (it's the cop in me), and spot a handful of motorcycles bunched in one corner of the lot, there's also a car and small pop up trailer, the bikes have the car boxed in and there's a bunch of people around a picnic table.
 They are about 150 yds. away so I grab my field glasses to get a better look,  I see a young couple sitting at the table and about six or seven rough looking bikers standing around the table,  and they don't look like they are traveling together,  as my wife climbs back into the van I tell her what I've seen and it looks a bit squirrely  to me, so I drive the van closer,  I'm carrying my mod.1911 Commander and my wife (also a PO at the time) has her off duty weapon with her as well,  I got out of the van and walked over to where they were all at and asked for directions to the Cape Cod Canal,  as soon as the young couple saw me approaching they looked relieved,  as I stood there waiting for one of them to answer I placed my hand on my hip in such a way that it moved my jean jacket just enough to put my 1911 in plain view,  then I said that we were just about to make some coffee and would they like a cup.
 The bikers didn't seem to be elated at the site of my Colt, they made some excuse and quickly got on their bikes and left, the young couple then thanked me and the man said that the bikers had been making lewd remarks about his wife and that they had been acting menacingly.
 I can't say for sure what they'd have done if I or my handgun hadn't have showed up when we did,  but I can say that as soon as it became the elephant in the room the bikers wasted no time moving on.   
 
 
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2018, 09:45:46 AM »
Moe, I have more than one story like that.
Sometime carrying has indirect benefits.  My 2nd wife and I were coming down the White River Road to Hwy 410 in western WA one miserable October day. We noticed 2 guys trying to hitch a ride on the hwy, and nobody was stopping.  I motioned them from across the road, and they came to talk to us.  They explained their p/u was stuck on a logging side road up the mountain, and they were trying to find help, but nobody on the pass hwy would even stop.
We told them we'd take them back to their rig and see if we could get them out, since I had tow chains in the Scout we were driving.  My wife crawled into the back seat of the Scout and I told the guys to double up in the passenger seat (so they wouldn't be behind us).
When we got to the 'jeep trail' they had called a logging road, we headed down about 1/4 mi until we found their truck.  The job looked easy enough, so we all piled out of the Scout. One of the guys says, "Not many couples would take two strangers into the woods like this. Thanks!"
The wife and I were wearing heavy jackets, and removed them to get to work hooking up the tow chain. That's when the other guy saw I was packing my .357 Dakota. He looked around and saw my wife had my S&W .357 in a cross-draw position on her belt.
"Crap! No wonder you guys weren't nervous!", was his first remark.
So...moral of this little tale is that we were able to help out two stranded guys because we were confident we had the upper hand, if they did turn out to be hijackers on the highway.
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Offline Orbean

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2018, 12:29:10 PM »
Here is one for not carrying. I was panning with my brother outside of Ouray Co on a claim that belonged to a friend. There was notorious jerk who also prospected and panned in the same area. He was well known to law enforcement, a real ugly speed freak. I ran across him and had a very scary encounter. He came up behind me while I am panning, kicks me in the back with his pistol out. Screaming I was on his claim and telling he had every right to shoot me. Before he left he told me that if I had been armed he would have shot and bragged how he would call it self defense.

I am sure with his rep he would have been charged with something, but i am convinced he truely thought he would have gotten away with killing me. Last i heard he was in the supermax in florance co.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2018, 01:28:02 PM »
Here is one for not carrying. I was panning with my brother outside of Ouray Co on a claim that belonged to a friend. There was notorious jerk who also prospected and panned in the same area. He was well known to law enforcement, a real ugly speed freak. I ran across him and had a very scary encounter. He came up behind me while I am panning, kicks me in the back with his pistol out. Screaming I was on his claim and telling he had every right to shoot me. Before he left he told me that if I had been armed he would have shot and bragged how he would call it self defense.

I am sure with his rep he would have been charged with something, but i am convinced he truely thought he would have gotten away with killing me. Last i heard he was in the supermax in florance co.

The problem with most anecdotes is the "what if" factor. In your scenario, what the fellow said may well have been his mind-set, and this truth. But the question arises: if you had been armed, would he have been so bold?  Would he have just potted you without warning, not wanting to risk his own life, or would he have been deterred knowing you had the capability of returning lethal force?  If the guy was truly psychotic, we need to take the outcome of the encounter at face value, and count you lucky.

I had an encounter at a liquor store in WA.  I was shopping and apparently walked in front of a guy just standing there, perusing the the shelves.  He came unglued!  He harassed me in the store, and then followed me out to the parking lot.  I got in my car and rolled down the window.  I was wearing this big sunglasses that fit over my eyeglasses, and he was hurling insults at me, and making fun of my glasses from about 20 feet away, telling me to get out of my car so he could kick my butt.  He paused in his ranting for a second, and I said, "You are a complete idiot. You can't see the look in my eye, but I have a .45 pointed at you behind this door, and believe me, that won't slow it down much at this distance. If I were anyone else, you'd be dead right now, and never see it coming."
Of course, I was lying like a rug, but his eyes got about the size of 50-cent pieces and he beat feet for his truck as fast as his fat little legs could carry him.  In retrospect, I wondered what I would have done if he'd called my bluff, or pulled out a weapon from fear.  Hahahaha
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2018, 03:25:31 PM »
OP's story reminded me of a friend of mine who was driving along I-25 in Denver and got into one of those road incidents.  The driver of the other car was mad about something and giving him the finger and cursing.  My friend is a plumber and had a 10" piece of black iron pipe in his front seat and held it on the widow sill of his vehicle pointed at the driver of the other vehicle who was driving on the left land of the two lane road.  When the other guy saw the pipe pointed at him he whipped out a real pistol and aimed it towards my friend who slammed the brakes on.  That ended it but my friend felt both relieved and dumb. 

As noted there is no answer to whether OC is good or not.  I think it is but not in every situation.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
(Mark Twain)

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Random thoughts and observations
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2018, 10:54:10 PM »
Yeah, there's probably not a single "right" answer applicable in every application.  The way I see it, if I'm carrying concealed I can always reveal my sidearm if there's a good reason to do so.  But it's not always easy to hide the sidearm if you're OC'ing.  As Old Philosopher points out being armed often makes you feel free do things and I can appreciate that.  I've stopped to help people knowing full well that if it was a ruse on their part I had an HK P2000 on me.  Of course, I try to make sure that being armed doesn't make me overconfident and lull me into entering a situation when I should know better.