Author Topic: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS  (Read 29065 times)

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Offline vallehombre

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2015, 08:54:11 AM »
When I think about GMOs, the Irish Potato Famine comes to mind because of the lack of diversity within crop stocks that allowed it to progress as it did. The other part of the story, although less well known, is that at the same time folks were starving, Ireland was exporting grain to England. A lot of it. A fact that might get to the business side of food production. Or may not be relevant at all.

I'm not someone who thinks a few heads of free range broccoli are going to make everything all sweetness and light but I do know enough biology to understand the utility and necessity of diversity within systems and that seems a significant, if not the major drawback, with GMO, especially when mono cropping approaches are the industry norm.

From what you describe about the business of farming it seems require more of a commitment to something besides a paycheck to keep at it... especially since in terms of agricultural policies anyone outside of a major corporation seems to be treated as a necessary inconvenience.

I'll remember this discussion next time I buy bread.

Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2015, 10:52:09 AM »
The Irish suffered through the potato famine, mainly through the political machinations of the British.....

https://mises.org/library/what-caused-irish-potato-famine

History proves, that if it were not for the direction of the political winds of the moment and those who purport to know what is best for those producing the food, life as a farmer would be FAR easier and much more lucrative.   No doubt, the blight-resistant GMO potato would have lessened the plight of the population of Ireland......IF they'd have had it available at the time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26189722
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Offline Unknown

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2015, 02:21:59 PM »
Look up Monsanto's stock performance over the last ten years....

http://www.monsanto.com/investors/pages/stock-performance.aspx
https://www.stocksplithistory.com/monsanto/

Just more interesting and eye-opening reading that may be of interest....

http://www.ibtimes.com/india-losing-2000-farmers-every-single-day-tale-rapidly-changing-society-1232913

From The Motley Fool on Monsanto....

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/30/do-gmos-and-monsanto-deserve-their-villainous-repu.aspx

Hi Wolfy. I realize the stock market is a long term game. In the article I posted it was actually generic brands of roundup being cited for a goodly portion of their current losses not consumer reactionary spending habits, but we will have to wait to see what happens next with glyphosate, and GMO labeling and its affects.

The article on India's farmers was a little hard to sort. Numbers of land owning farmers is way down, numbers of agricultural laborers is up. This seems to support the notion that native farmers lost their foothold during the Green Revolution, and it continues with the high price of GM seeds still contributing to their problems. Because as you point out higher yields does not necessarily translate to higher profits for the farmers. (or is seldom never translates to higher profits a better way to say it?) All those laborers have to be working for someone, the article does not say who exactly only: "The rise in agricultural labor could be explained by the falling size of land-holdings over time,"

It is a complex issue and I don't intend that we should try to sort it all out here. If I understood the numbers quoted, India has 25% of the population are Cultivators. Which I think to mean land owning farmers. An additional 30% are ag. laborers. That is 55% of the pop. involved in some type of Ag. That is eyeopening. I may have misunderstood what was said, but could you imagine 55% of US pop in AG?

Sorry I didn't have the stamina to wade through the Motley Fools, or EU side any further.
  As said I don't expect our humble discussion to resolve any issues or alter opinions. I like to think we are wise enough, as a group representing a somewhat different view of things natural and consumable than those caught up in the distractions of contemporary society, to realize no one group or point of view has the solutions to our present predicament.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2015, 03:51:50 PM »
It's interesting that, in relation to the rest of the world, we spend FAR less of our earned (or unearned) income on food than does ANY other country or nation in the entire known universe.  So, even if you choose to never eat even a single bite of GMO food, and you can, there ARE sources for organically grown, non-modified foodstuffs.  It will, no doubt, cost MUCH more than that from a source of GMO food, BUT it will still cost you much less than that which anyone else in the whole wide world pays for theirs......organic non-organic, modified or non-modified.

Here's an interesting chart, from an independent source, that vividly illustrates that relationship.....

http://wsm.wsu.edu/researcher/wsmaug11_billions.pdf

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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2015, 10:25:28 AM »
Although I do not agree with all Madeleine Albright (former Secretary of Agriculture during President Clinton's administration) espouses, she was in Nebraska speaking at UNL on the merits/demerits of GMOs yesterday at the Food Factory of the Future conference.....

http://www.omaha.com/news/education/at-unl-madeleine-albright-discusses-how-food-rich-america-can/article_576b2afa-fd7f-11e4-b300-e3ad08494f6a.html?mode=jqm
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Offline wolfy

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Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2015, 11:47:48 AM »
I think the bee habitat thing should take the spread of killer bees into consideration.

Offline NantanLupan

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2015, 11:04:34 PM »
Well, I figure that GMO's and whatnot can be a good thing, and also a bad thing. I have qualms about putting 'terminator' genes into the crops to prevent farmers being able from re-use seeds from the last harvest on a large scale. IOW, the vast majority of seeds from a harvest of GMO crops will not be able to be used. It's somewhat similar to the hybrids you can find at places like Lowe's, Walmart, Tractor Supply, etc, the difference being that hybrids aren't the same thing as GMO's. In fact, you'll not find GMO seeds available for the average gardener. GMO's are pretty much exclusively for the large-scale farmer. It's my understanding that the process of creating GMO's is different than hybrids, part of it being that the scientists creating GMO's use DNA for things like some sort of fish that aids the process or something. Of course, you've got your big GMO corporations that sue the little farmers who sell seeds that hybridized from their neighbor's crops and their own crops.

On the other hand, we've got the big corporations growing massive amounts of food that can be used to feed the poor all over the world. Some folks can say that it causes cancer, some don't, there's not really a whole lot of reliable information from either side that I've seen.

Look, we still don't really understand the long-term consequences of this--what is called--"frankenfood". It was a few years back that I heard about GMO trees being created that would maybe be softer for paper products, or harder for construction applications, etc. Now if those seeds travel outside of the designated area, whether it's for food, or for trees, or whatever, what will happen then? What if a lumber mill accidentally winds up with a fair number of trees that, unbeknownst to them, were originally designed to be softer for paper products? What if some sort of environmental catastrophe completely changes the landscape so that there are major crop failures with GMO's? Or if GMO crops bring a plague of super-locusts? We don't really have those answers. Would these super-locusts wipe up all the corn--GMO or not--in the United States? What if some sort of fungus causes major crop failures linked to Monsanto in some way? Now, sure, there have always been crop failures throughout history. But what if GMO crops wind up causing the crop failures due to the overuse of GMO's and their linked herbicides and pesticides?

And then we've got the United States government actually sending diplomats to foreign countries and pressuring(sometimes threatening) other countries to legalize GMO's and pressuring them to use GMO's and actively seeking economic targets in other countries if they don't get their way on this issue? Do the GMO manufacturers know that their GMO's will actually work in these other countries with their climates, etc?

I remember watching a video a few years back, from a governmental official in Mexico, who talked about a farmer who accidentally wound up planting GMO's in his field and it caused some pretty major crop damage if I remember correctly. See, the US Government sends corn to Mexico to help feed folks. Well, farmers in Mexico sometimes got ahold of that corn to feed their families, and kept some of it and started sowing it among their own crops, and it caused problems.

There's a lot to say about this issue. At this point, I'm not sold that it's a great thing, or that it's totally a negative thing. There are good things(helping feed a large percentage of the world's population), and negatives(so-called "crony capitalism", corporate sponsored government pressure). A little of good, a little of bad. Or a lot, depending on how you view it.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2015, 08:57:01 AM »
Good and thoughtful post, NL! :thumbsup: :cheers:
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2015, 12:50:09 PM »
Yes it is.
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Offline okcmco

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2015, 11:19:50 AM »
It is interesting that most every other country I visit will not allow Monsanto GMO seeds in.  It is also interesting that the country in which Monsanto does the most lobbying (the USA)  seems ok with GMO. The authorities told us that saccharine and equal were safe.  thalidomide was approved by the FDA. 100 years ago they said smoking was ok for you
  I will avoid GMO if I can. Esp corn and soy.   Monsanto has no one's best interests in mind except Monsanto and its share holders they are in business for profit.
  I find it interesting the liberals seem to want to change things (for the better it seems but in reality it does not always work that way). And conservatives want things to go back to the way they used to be, before (fill in the blank) messed everything up. Yet in the GMO argument conservatives seem to be OK with science and new technologies and its the liberals who want to "get back to the way things used to be".   Of course it might depend upon how much biotech stocks you are holding....


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Offline vallehombre

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2015, 08:52:11 AM »
"See, the US Government sends corn to Mexico to help feed folk..."

What NL noted is true enough but only in the context of post NAFTA conditions in Mexico. And that folks, for better or worse, good or bad or otherwise is all the whole GMO thing is about.

Offline zammer

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2015, 06:57:00 AM »
This speaks more about the truth than any doctored evidence or claims from either the gubmint or Monsanto ever will... http://www.cornucopia.org/is-the-usda-a-wholly-owned-subsidiary-of-monsanto/
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2015, 08:12:54 AM »
Follow the money ;)
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Offline WoodsWoman

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On particularly rough days when I'm sure I can't possibly endure, I like to remind myself that my track record for getting through bad days so far is 100% and that's pretty good.

Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2015, 10:18:24 AM »
Thanks, Marcia......interes ting, indeed!  Even more interesting than the article itself, were the comments at the end of the blog entry.

Here's another very interesting tooth in the gears of GMO research.....GMO tobacco, of all things.  They are using it as the basis for the only known vaccine to prevent the spread of the Ebola virus and some vaccines for use in HIV and cancer patients.....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/health/ebola-tobacco-plant/

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Offline upthecreek

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2015, 10:37:58 AM »
I've learned a lot following this thread.

Creek
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2015, 09:03:21 AM »
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
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Offline upthecreek

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2015, 03:47:26 PM »
Hell, they only offered 45 billion....  :crazy:

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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2015, 03:56:06 PM »
Yeah,........penny pinchers. ;)
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2015, 05:53:50 PM »
"The terms of the deal are too good for Syngenta to pass up, said Monsanto spokeswoman Sara Miller."

Sounds like Monsanto thinks they made them a offer that they can't refuse.  I would  be sleeping lightly if I were the head of Syngenta.

Monsanto is, in this case, going to far and it appears their greed knows no boundary.  It is unwise to have one company controlling half of the corn market in the world.
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Offline Unknown

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2015, 07:31:49 PM »
Interesting article.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27446-did-gmo-corn-really-kill-all-those-bees-in-canada



WW.

Cannot quite git the gist of exactly what this blogger is trying to say. Did GMO really kill all those bees? No, but Yes! What did you, WW, and Wolfy find interesting?

Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2015, 08:57:16 PM »
Interesting article.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27446-did-gmo-corn-really-kill-all-those-bees-in-canada



WW.

Cannot quite git the gist of exactly what this blogger is trying to say. Did GMO really kill all those bees? No, but Yes! What did you, WW, and Wolfy find interesting?
I was a bit foggy on what she was trying to get at myself, but as I said in my last post about this blog, it was the comments below it that I found most interesting. ???
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Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2015, 11:42:47 PM »
So is there a GMO solution in the works for the banana fungus problem?

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2015, 07:09:24 AM »
probably.  Bottom line is that without GMO food, most of the world would have starved long ago.  No crop is 'true to it's roots', so to speak, all have been modified in one way or another.
I guess we have to have something to about though.  Government, big business, small business, just something.

Offline Moe M.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2015, 06:25:47 AM »


   Soilent Green,  coming to your local food Mart soon.      >:D
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2015, 07:14:44 AM »
C'mon, Moe.....Soylent Green NEVER contained GMOs!  :rolleyes:


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Offline Moe M.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2015, 05:54:39 PM »
C'mon, Moe.....Soylent Green NEVER contained GMOs!  :rolleyes:




 They're just getting us prepped for the next phase.




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Offline zammer

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2015, 07:32:10 PM »
An interesting case study ( Summary of the Tryptophan Toxicity Incident )  http://www.nemsn.org/Articles/summary_tryptophan%20Fagan.htm
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Offline upthecreek

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2015, 07:32:40 PM »
The corn I had tonight sure was good!

Creek
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2015, 09:31:22 PM »
I recall that tryptophan incident, zamms.....clearly a 'fubar' of Biblical proportion.  The lack of testing on any new drug can be horrific in consequence, as this one clearly demonstrated. :'(


Creek.....mmmmmmmm, CORN! :drool:
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Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2015, 05:16:11 AM »
I ran across this article on AGWEB this morning while I was checking grain prices......

It?s (mostly) a global juggernaut, but mind the gaps

It?s been 19 years since the first biotech crop was commercially planted and sold, and genetically modified organisms (GMOs) feel rather ubiquitous?at least in the U.S. Biotech adoption has proved pervasive for U.S. farmers, with 93% in corn, 94% in soybeans and 96% in cotton.

Yet elsewhere across the globe, the reception hasn?t been quite so warm.

The most recent jarring reminder of this came during a stretch from November 2013 to December 2014, when China rejected shipments of corn containing the MIR 162 trait from Syngenta (Agrisure Viptera). Although this corn is now cleared for Chinese delivery, the fallout continues with pending class-action lawsuits.

Duane Martin, product lead for commercial traits at Syngenta, says the approval process with China for MIR 162 was initiated in 2010 but took more than twice as long as expected.

The process was frustrating, Martin says, but what?s more troubling is that it could happen again.

?The industry has realized this is not an Agrisure issue?it?s industry-wide,? he says. ?There are other trait suppliers who could find themselves in this same situation.?

International groups are working overtime to make sure history doesn?t repeat itself, however.
?There are a lot of dynamics at play,? says Denise Dewar, executive director, plant biotechnology at CropLife International. ?That?s the hot spot we?re in right now. How do we respect the Chinese government?s processes without limiting innovation??

By other criteria, China is way ahead of some countries. As of 2014, China was one of a handful of countries that grows biotech and grants imports. Many countries still do neither, including parts of western Asia, eastern Europe and most of Africa.

North and South America lead the way in biotech grain production. Europe, despite many of its nations refusing to grow biotech crops, is the No. 1 importer of biotech grain.

When countries begin growing biotech crops, it is often a game-changer for those nations, Dewar says. If the trait works, adoption tends to be fast.

?Anywhere the technology has been introduced, farmers have really run with it,? she says.

Dewar points to India as one example. The country approved Bt cotton in 2002. A few years later, yields dramatically rose. Today, the country has moved from a net importer of cotton to one of the world?s largest exporters.

Another trend to watch, she adds, is more governmental scientists are developing biotech crops for their country?s farmers. Bt eggplant in Bangladesh is one example, she says.

Bangladesh is a poor country with 150 million people, and eggplant helps fuel the nation?s populace. With a short 100-day approval process, Bt eggplant was in farmer fields in early 2014. Bangladesh is now researching and testing biotech potatoes, cotton and rice.

?More individual countries will see an agronomic need and deploy a specific technology to benefit their own people,? Dewar says.

Meanwhile, in Africa, ?pro-poor? crops, such as pest-resistant cowpeas and fortified bananas in research trials, could someday take root on African farms. Vietnam approved Bt corn imports earlier this year.

Some days it marches, and some days it stumbles, but global biotech adoption moves forward. 



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Offline zammer

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2015, 07:42:49 AM »
Why is it that we need these GMO crops now? I don't ask out of ignorance but rather lets discuss why these crops were modified in the first place, whats was the need for them? was it to make a crops more pest resistant, drought tolerable, disease resistant or was it the angle that a farmer would not need as much water, pesticides, and it would therefore be cheaper for him to be able to grow crops in less than ideal standards? Or was there another motive? I don't personally believe the world would have run out of food, I don't think production is the only issue, I believe the issue also involves distribution, and that some parts of the world have suffered severe drought. If you add in the issue of over-population in some areas then the whole mess gets out of balance.

I don't think throwing super crops to feed the worlds poor is an actual solution, and certainly not the solution for the rest of the world. Corporations do not invest billions of dollars for purely humanitarian reasons they exist to make money and control the market, when foreign countries rely on single or minimal suppliers of seed to grow crops for either their people or to sustain the economy through export I don't see that as a good thing, it's just welfare on a much larger scale. Another thing is that if a country relies on another country for it's crop seed that pooerr country then becomes indentured more or less to open up it's other resources to the country/corporation that is feeding it.

 I would be interested in your view Wolfy as you are a Farmer and have seen the way things used to be and what they've become, and even tho I am not a GMO proponent, I do respect your opinion and would appreciate any light you could shed on this.
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Offline MnSportsman

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2015, 08:05:24 AM »
  I think is is not just food & feeding people that the GMO people are thinking about...


Quote
In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage


Source:http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

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Offline zammer

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2015, 09:22:47 AM »
  I think is is not just food & feeding people that the GMO people are thinking about...


Quote
In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage


Source:http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

And now you've gone and thrown another wrench in the issue,,,,  ;)  troublemaker
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2015, 09:33:57 AM »
  On any subjects concerning farming and the growing of food I have to defer to our resident farmer,  in the past I've pretty much stuck to the status quo about grow foods, I grew up in a time when my family's and neighbor's produce requirments were filled by Victory Gardens in every ones back or side yard,  my folks canned the overage for winter, we made our own salt pork and bacon,  my grandfather (we all lived in a three Decker house) had a big chicken coup at the end of our garden that housed about a hundred and fifty or so chickens which took care of our poultry and egg needs,  in the spring my folks, grand parents, and my uncle would by a couple of White faced steers and butcher them at the start of winter,  and I started hunting small game at about nine years old for some meat variety to our menu.

 So, you can gather in the above that I'm a all for natural, organic, free range, support your local  growers,  don't screw with my food kind of guy,  I have never supported the man made Global Warming BS that science has been trying to get us to empty our wallets to fix.

 All that said,  I've been doing a lot of reading about some of this stuff for a while and what has become clear to me is that it's no longer black and white or left and right,  some of this stuff is real, and it does need to be addressed now.

 Climate change;

 The most important issues I think that are facing our kids and grandkids are climate change,  I don't know what's causing it,  I doubt it's auto exhaust and cow farts,  but I do know that 50*F. in Alaska in winter and over 10 feet of snow fall in south eastern New England ain't normal,  neither is 70*F. days and 40*F. nights in my area normal for my area of the state in mid summer.
 Heavy flooding in the south and extreme droughts in the south west have happened before,  but not usually like it's been lately.
 
 World Population;

 The worlds population is expected to grow by two Billion more people by 2025,  and that figure is expected to reach as high 5 billion more by 2050,  why that is such a problem is because we are stretching the limits of food production today as it is,  which where the next two problems we face comes into play.

 Food & Water;

 It's looking like we (the worlds population) are on the edge of just enough and not quite enough,  while the demand for food continues to grow, especially in under developed nations,  more and more crops are being turned into fuel and less and less into actual food,  farm lands are being turned into industrial and residential property,  and a higher demand for meat products has a lot of produce going to feed for commercial meat grows and less for human consumption.
 Next is water,  we all need it or we die, it's that simple,  personally I don't have a problem Yet,  but,  it's costing me well over $2000.00 a year now for tap water and sewer use fees,  20 years ago it was included as a part of my municipal property tax,  not anymore.
 CA.  from what I hear is having a serious drought,  water is being rationed very strictly,  ranchers and farmers (all part of the food chain) are being denied the water they need to just maintain let alone grow.
 I read a little while back in a National Geographic report that of all the water on this rock,  most of it is either salted sea/ocean water or frozen as ice at or near the Poles,  or water that is tainted, unreachable, or not potable in any way,  they gave percentages but I don't remember them except for one,  the amount of water on the planet that we can reach and can drink,  and that figure was 1%,  now that's a scary thought.

 So, what's this all got to do with BGMO,  only that it may be that there are people, governments, and Corporations that know more about the future than us peasants do,  maybe they are taking climate change,  over population,  shortages of food, water, and fuel into consideration and trying to develop new ways to produce foods,  treat water,  and mine for fuel,  do I think they're all doing it to save mankind,  some maybe, it's not unheard of for good people to work for the good of all.
 But I'm not naive,  most whether is Monsanto, Standard Oil, or the Washington political machine,  most are probably doing it for the money or the power that having the answers will bring,  and like it or not these things like GMO's may end up being the lesser of two evils.
       
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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2015, 10:40:02 AM »
That was a good post, Moe......I guess I'm pretty much in the same place in my thoughts.  Although retired, I AM a farmer and pretty much always have been, but I am far from being an expert with all the answers on this subject.  As a matter of fact, I have a LOT of questions on the subject that I continually try to find answers for.   That was why I started the thread in the first place.....to get others' thoughts on the questions & answers on whether they are good, bad or in that gray area somewhere in the middle.  I have discovered that many of you, that have responded, feel the same way.  It IS confusing, but I try to keep an open mind and read between the lines when looking at the sources of the 'facts' that are presented in the diatribes on both sides of the fence.  One thing that cannot be denied, is that now that the 'genie is out of the bottle,' it ain't goin' away!  Using it wisely for the benefit of mankind is the conundrum we all have to face.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 12:10:25 PM by wolfy »
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2015, 11:35:40 AM »
I know the GMOs are intended to improve yields and delivered quality.  However,  I have been suffering through a bag of red grapes that have a skin like an NFL football.  Pulling them off the vine is like pulling the head off of a garden snake.  Taste is similar to newsprint soaked in sugar water.  OK, yield is up, more grapes make it to the supermarket intact.  But who the hell wants to eat them?  :P
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2015, 11:54:10 AM »
No easy answers to this.  Roundup ready alfalfa which is a GMO is sure a good way to cut down on weeds.  Weeds in our area are taking over.  If you grow common alfalfa seed the weed content gets higher every year.  You feed the weed infested alfalfa and the cattle or horses spread weed seeds all over the place and pretty soon you have weeds everywhere.  RUR Alfalfa doesn't seem to yield more than common seed but it does seem to have a bit longer life.  Common lasts about 5 to 7 years.  RUR lasts about 8 years. 

While it would be nice if everyone could grow or raise their own food it isn't going to happen and most folks don't live where they could do that in sufficient quantity to survive. 

I have always trusted our food supply.  That might be naive in the changing market place but I have never had a problem.  I bought red grapes and green grapes the other day and they are fine.  No tough skins or poor taste Max.  I wonder where they came from?  They were not labeled with country of origin.
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2015, 01:12:09 PM »
  As an aside and not anything to do with GMO specifically,  another of the papers I read about the supposedly coming food and water shortages (Scientist are pretty sure the globe is looking at a serious situation for 2050 or there abouts) is that it's looking like there's no way to produce enough food or potable water if we continue along the same lines as we are now.
  What's being researched and experimented on is bigger yields,  produce that will last longer without spoiling,  and indoor farms that will allow growing seasons throughout the year and growing in places that are hostile environments now.
  Some things being worked on kind of rub me the wrong way but does make sense in the long term,  one is changing our diets to include more plant material and less meat,  we can argue the merits of what might be saved by switching from less meat to more veggies,  but it's complicated and has to do with animals taking more room to raise per acre of space compared to edible plants and how much plant material it takes to feed the animals for what you get out of them.
  One of the biggest changes is in waste,  we waste almost as much food in this country as we consume,  in less developed areas of the world that percentage is much higher because of losses through a lack of refrigeration,  poor transportation, and poor harvesting methods,  in the states here we throw away a lot of good usable food simply because of "Best by" dates, or the meat or produce starts to look a bit less than fresh, food stores throw away food that's perfectly edible but has been on the shelves for more than the allotted time,  and we the consumers mostly buy for the week rather than for the day,  we only eat a portion of what we buy and toss what we don't use or we don't eat leftovers allot.
 It was suggested that if we could cut half the waste in the food industry and at home we could feed an excess 2 billion people without producing any more than we do now.
 As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.
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Offline imnukensc

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2015, 02:08:49 PM »
As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.

Israel seems to have a handle on that.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2015, 04:05:39 PM »
As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.

Israel seems to have a handle on that.



And if you have a nice big desert just add a large solar array and the water is practically free after the initial construction.

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Offline Punty

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2015, 02:40:47 PM »
    I am not a fan of GMO products. I don't want them banned, but I sure would like them labeled, something that the industry pays a lot of money to politicians to make sure it never happens.
  I have issues with GMO products on a number of levels, briefly because I don't like how a regular farmer can have his crops contaminated with GMO crops, and he can be sued by Monsanto even if he never wanted GMO crops in his field.
   I don't like how they splice bacterial genes with plant genes...to me there is a line there that probably shouldn't be crossed.
   I don't like how the GMO companies monopolize the seed industry making heirloom seeds all but non-existent, in place of seeds that grow sterile plants. so farmers become dependant on them.
   Mostly, I don't like how the industry squashes and significant research into GMO products and potential risks or side effects, links to health problems, and how they spend so much money to prevent clear and understandable labels..even voluntary ones.
   
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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2015, 05:08:34 PM »
Very well stated Punty. I agree with you on each and every point.

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2015, 08:43:42 PM »
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)
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Offline Unknown

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2015, 10:03:38 PM »
By profit, do you mean money, or for benefit. I know what you mean but my family has profited from gardening, in that we get better food, better tasting food that no one has to wonder what is on it, in it, how or where it was raised.

These are not questions that I always ask, or demand to be answered all the time. Sometimes I just go with the flow and do things the easiest way possible. I've been a rather successful gardener, and a very poor one. After several years of disinterest, last year I grew a small garden. This year I did not put much effort into it. It is something I could do, and it would imo be a good thing if I would make it a year round priority to grow as much as I could- I live in a residential neighborhood with not much land. But I have bigger places, better places to grow. It is not easy, which is I think, your point. If I had to rely on it exclusively - well it never would have been enough- and probably no matter how much more I tried.

Many in this thread have considered GM to be the same/similar thing as hybridization. I feel it to be extraordinarily different, so I have grown hybridized/non-GMO veggies(or at least I thought they were). I have also used some pesticides, and some herbicides. At this point in my learning, I would rather not, but even if I did at least I would know that it was done with care and concern for well being rather than monetary gain over all other considerations.

I'm a little double minded in all this. That's why I agreed with Punty on every point, ie. not banning them. That's why I'm not strictly on organics only. I accept that GMO are prevalent.
   It's very difficult, expensive, time consuming to avoid them completely so I don't stress over it. Nevertheless when I think about gmo with a certain kind of cynicism, with an eye on everything else happening in the world  I feel under attack.

There are a lot of pieces in play so imo you can't just say without gmo billions would starve......maybe add more later

Offline wolfy

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2015, 10:24:42 PM »
That's pretty much where I'm at, too.  Hard to put a finger on it all, ain't it? :shrug:
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Offline Unknown

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2015, 11:34:36 PM »
Where I live we can't have backyard chickens just yet, though a permit has been discussed in city council. Watering your lawn is restricted to odd/ even days by address, however watering food crops is not restricted and you can have a garden in your front yard if you so desire- though that could be restricted by any neighborhood homeowners agreement I suppose. .... Just trying to think of something positive ;D

Offline zammer

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2015, 09:55:24 AM »
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)

And this is why I hold my tongue  8) I do realize farming is not an easy rosy life and I understand that food production has changed drastically in the past century but I still do not like the attempts to not label GMO crops, because they are basically telling me ...I don't need to know, and I personally feel that is not right. I will decide what I want to eat whether it's pure junk or the most healthiest of food.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 12:29:06 PM by zammer »
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Offline Punty

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Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2015, 10:15:24 AM »
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)

  Just to clarify a couple of things....

1. I understand the difference between hybrid and GMO, but Monsanto generally buys out local seed suppliers entirely and making only their own GMO seeds available for retail. They do it all over the world.

2. I have no experience farming, outside of a little home garden, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a farmer may have his own, non-Monsanto crops in his own field, but if his crops become contaminated by Monsanto products in any way, even by pollination, that farmer can and will be sued by Monsanto, and successfully.
  They even sue farmers who save seeds because the seeds are patented.

  Both of these are related. Monsanto seeks to destroy any un-patented farming goods.

  I prefer choice.....choice of the farmers, and choice of the consumers. I prefer that a farmer can grow whatever they like, save whatever seeds they want to save, and consumers to be informed whether the food they are eating is GMO or not, so they can make their own decision.


 Incidentally, there is evidence.....not proof....but evidence, that the prevalence of GMO crops is the root cause of the massive honeybee die offs. They can't draw the sustenance they need from GMO pollen, and the hive weakens and is susceptible to contagion.
If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
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