Author Topic: Friction Fire Fellowship  (Read 126939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #100 on: July 29, 2012, 01:40:02 PM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
        K.K.... Get rid of the pine. Use some dead Cedar, or Willow. Your gonna have troubles with the pines. Even some dead Cottonwood, would be better. Too much resin in the Pine tree type family.


    now I don't feelbad about not beingable to do this up at the cbin. I am practically surrounded by Potlatch pines! I been using the wrong damn wood all this time!


Same.  Sucks, eh?

I agree. Start off with some Cedar (if you have it) or Willow that work on themselves. Pine is the wrong wood but "seasoned" Pine is not the wrong wood (see the coal above I got with seasoned Pine and I do this regularly) but it is the wrong wood for a beginner. Use "seasoned" Pine later. If you have Yucca around, that would be the best. Real quick to get a coal with a Yucca spindle on just about any board. Yucca has one of the lowest temperatures for friction of most any friction wood except a Mallow family plant such as Caesar Weed above that has an even lower temperature than Yucca. Much quicker coal with Caesar Weed and it works on itself like all Mallows. Other Mallows are Hibiscus and Velvetleaf. My first coal however was Willow on Willow. My second coal was Maple on Maple but I would not suggest Maple for a beginner because it is a little on the hard side and harder to get a coal.

Some say cottonwood is real good but since I don't have any here, I can't say. If you are not sure of your wood types for friction wood then use the "fingernail etch test."
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 01:43:53 PM by RBM »
Robert

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #101 on: July 29, 2012, 01:49:54 PM »
Over the past couple years, I've heard a lot about mullien spindles, but not much about the hearth board.
Any comments on mullien?
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #102 on: July 29, 2012, 07:31:58 PM »
I harvested a few mullein stalks last year while thy were still green, and let them dry in a corner of my shop. I have not checked them out yet to see how they held up. But...

I also had a stalk I harvested after the spring snow melt last year that was one of the standing dead stalks. It was very dry, very lightweight, and very fragile. It had a large central core of pith that was broken in a lot of places, and an outer layer of lengthwise fibers that came off the core pretty easily. The impression I got is that it was a bit on the fragile side to use as a bowdrill spindle, but you might get away with using it as a hand drill. I also tried shaving paper thin pieces of the pith and could not get them to take a spark from a flint and steel, or ignite in a fire piston. It's possible I had an anomalous stalk, but if the ones I dried out in my shop are any indicator, they are just as light and fragile feeling and I suspect that the mullein in my area is unsuitable.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #103 on: July 29, 2012, 07:39:09 PM »
Quote from: Old Philosopher
Any comments on mullien?

No mullein here either. But give a horseweed spindle a try. ;D Works on willow among other boards.

Went out today and made a cord and set from scratch and learned the hard way once more that it is especially critical with a natural plant fiber cord to get the right materials and parts (no marginal stuff) or the cord won't last through the process due to struggling with the materials and parts. Even with low temperature friction woods. I did not have a straight spindle and the boards were boards I should not have been using. Needless to say it was a failure.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 07:51:29 PM by RBM »
Robert

Offline kanukkarhu

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 5892
  • Canadian Woods Loafer & Certified Nobody
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2012, 07:57:54 PM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
        K.K.... Get rid of the pine. Use some dead Cedar, or Willow. Your gonna have troubles with the pines. Even some dead Cottonwood, would be better. Too much resin in the Pine tree type family.


    now I don't feelbad about not beingable to do this up at the cbin. I am practically surrounded by Potlatch pines! I been using the wrong damn wood all this time!


Same.  Sucks, eh?

I agree. Start off with some Cedar (if you have it) or Willow that work on themselves. Pine is the wrong wood but "seasoned" Pine is not the wrong wood (see the coal above I got with seasoned Pine and I do this regularly) but it is the wrong wood for a beginner. Use "seasoned" Pine later. If you have Yucca around, that would be the best. Real quick to get a coal with a Yucca spindle on just about any board. Yucca has one of the lowest temperatures for friction of most any friction wood except a Mallow family plant such as Caesar Weed above that has an even lower temperature than Yucca. Much quicker coal with Caesar Weed and it works on itself like all Mallows. Other Mallows are Hibiscus and Velvetleaf. My first coal however was Willow on Willow. My second coal was Maple on Maple but I would not suggest Maple for a beginner because it is a little on the hard side and harder to get a coal.

Some say cottonwood is real good but since I don't have any here, I can't say. If you are not sure of your wood types for friction wood then use the "fingernail etch test."
Gonna try some poplar as soon as I can get the time.

Thanks for the advice!
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2012, 08:56:04 PM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
Gonna try some poplar as soon as I can get the time.

I have heard that poplar works. I have also heard sycamore works. Basswood is suppose to work. I have seen these on friction wood lists. I don't have that big of a selection here where I live so many woods found up North listed on lists I don't have here.

Theoretically any wood "should" work if it is dry enough but wood density and sap content may dictate otherwise for some woods.
Robert

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2012, 09:25:09 PM »
I harvested a few mullein stalks last year while thy were still green, and let them dry in a corner of my shop. I have not checked them out yet to see how they held up. But...

I also had a stalk I harvested after the spring snow melt last year that was one of the standing dead stalks. It was very dry, very lightweight, and very fragile. It had a large central core of pith that was broken in a lot of places, and an outer layer of lengthwise fibers that came off the core pretty easily. The impression I got is that it was a bit on the fragile side to use as a bowdrill spindle, but you might get away with using it as a hand drill. I also tried shaving paper thin pieces of the pith and could not get them to take a spark from a flint and steel, or ignite in a fire piston. It's possible I had an anomalous stalk, but if the ones I dried out in my shop are any indicator, they are just as light and fragile feeling and I suspect that the mullein in my area is unsuitable.
I have a 5 1/2 foot walking stick I made out of a 9 foot dead mullien. I think I posted a pic somewhere. Anyway, it's strong enough to bear my weight, if I don't get stupid. It weighs 9 oz.
I have three 4' stalks that have been drying since last fall. I'm going to give one a shot, and see what happens. Thanks for the tips!
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2012, 09:11:50 AM »
Quote from: Old Philosopher
Any comments on mullien?

No mullein here either. But give a horseweed spindle a try. ;D Works on willow among other boards.

Went out today and made a cord and set from scratch and learned the hard way once more that it is especially critical with a natural plant fiber cord to get the right materials and parts (no marginal stuff) or the cord won't last through the process due to struggling with the materials and parts. Even with low temperature friction woods. I did not have a straight spindle and the boards were boards I should not have been using. Needless to say it was a failure.

Out of curiosity, what did you make the cord from? I've had success using Saw Palmetto and Queen Palm strands (off the branch). I like them because they're long enough where you don't have to splice them (That, and Saw Palmetto is everywhere and easy to find). I haven't tried Caesar Weed fibers yet. Apparently they have excellent tensile strength. I've not had the best luck using natural cordage were splicing is used (ie. reverse twist cordage).

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #108 on: July 30, 2012, 09:25:31 PM »
Quote from: LetsRock
Out of curiosity, what did you make the cord from? I've had success using Saw Palmetto and Queen Palm strands (off the branch). I like them because they're long enough where you don't have to splice them (That, and Saw Palmetto is everywhere and easy to find). I haven't tried Caesar Weed fibers yet. Apparently they have excellent tensile strength. I've not had the best luck using natural cordage were splicing is used (ie. reverse twist cordage).

I will tell you what I use (have available) here. Saw Palmetto stem strips (not fronds) is very tough but the fibers inside the stem can stick in the skin like little needles when dry. The part of the stem I use is the outer green skin layer (taking small strips from that) after removing the inside stem fibers. Yucca leaf is my favorite because it is also super strong and....I can leg roll it, something I can't do with the palmetto stem strips due to its stiffness even when wet. I also use Cocklebur bark, best when just turned woody (leg roll) but green will also work (although stiff). Cocklebur green bark should be handled with caution, the sap (as well as all parts, especially the seed burs) is toxic so mind where you put your sappy hands until you clean them. Caesarweed bark is good also but it must be used thick for a firebow cord (a little on the brittle side).

I use single two ply cords on friction woods that have low friction temps (quicker coal woods). I once got five or six coals with one Yucca cord using both Caesarweed and Yucca sets. I only reverse twist a single two ply cord into a doubled cord for friction woods that have higher friction temps like Willow and Maple. Single cords will not take the stress of higher friction temp. woods in my experience.

This photo shows reverse twisted double cords. Yucca leaf top. Bottom left is Cocklebur bark. Bottom right is Caesarweed bark. No pic of Palmetto stem strips though. Notice the wood types, Willow and Maple so reverse twisted double cords.


The cord I used yesterday was a single palmetto stem strip cord. But I was using a Yucca spindle. Big problem was crooked spindle and wrong board types. Too many attempts and struggling and the cord did finally break. Choose your materials well and shape your parts carefully.

If you are having trouble with splicing and other plant cord problems, I highly recommend this DVD on Primitive Fire & Cordage. Cording, splicing, and leg rolling. Easy splicing that is not shown in the PWL&SS or UGTWL book. It is worth the $25.
https://www.createspace.com/208759

You will not see reverse twist cording from John and Geri. That is something that I do. Just take a single two ply cord and twist in the reverse direction just as if you are doing a single cord. You will splice in the same way just opposite (so remember splice opposite twist way). John just uses two single two ply cords. One to burn in the spindle and one to go for the coal.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:03:09 PM by RBM »
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #109 on: July 31, 2012, 06:41:00 AM »
Thanks, RBM! Excellent info. Looks like we're on the same page. Yesterday, I went out and messed around with Saw Palmetto. I used the stem (or branch) fibers just as you described. I went with a little different approach with the bowstring, though. I selected the longest (best) fiber strands and just twisted them together tying a simple knot on each end. Here's a vid:



I was skeptical on how well the Palmetto fibers would work so I didn't video the harvesting and processing of the fibers. I'll see about getting that on video as I've had a couple other folks ask how I made the bowstring.

I haven't noticed Cocklebur before. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2012, 07:11:12 PM »
Great job.  :) That should easily qualify you on the FFF. That Egyptian method is easier on those plant fiber cords. A lot of times I don't take the time to make a longer cord so I just use the tension method but its harder on the cord. Since you live in Tampa you should have virtually the same plants I have here in the South Central part of the State.

Cocklebur likes to grow in wet places like ditches, ponds, and such. If you find Willow, you usually can find Cocklebur. Those sticky little round seed burs that you find on your pants. Just be mindful not to put your hands around your eyes and mouth or open sores when handling it green and sappy. Wash up after cording it. Once its dry it should be okay to handle without worry. Dry dead Cocklebur bark is okay to handle. Do not ingest any part of the Cocklebur either. The seed burs are especially toxic. Cocklebur bark is stronger in my experience than even Caesar Weed bark. Look for the green velvety leaf similar to Caesar Weed but darker. Caesar Weed leaves are lighter green. I often find Cocklebur and Caesar Weed growing beside each other however Caesar Weed tends to like its feet a little drier. So it would not be uncommon to see Cocklebur down in a ditch with Caesar Weed growing on top of the ditch.

I would probably rate the cordage this way for strength. Best is Yucca leaf. Next Palmetto stem "skin." :-\ Next Cocklebur bark. Finally Caesar Weed bark. I have messed with other plant fibers here but none come even close to those four for strength. I had one fellow tell me that root bark was better. So I did extensive testing on various root barks here and none of them came close either.

I have seen Cocklebur in more counties in FL than the USDA map shows. I think the kind we have here is "Rough" Cocklebur.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=XANTH2
Robert

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2012, 07:41:35 PM »
Great information guys!

Offline Dano

  • Water Stone
  • ***
  • Posts: 4972
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #112 on: July 31, 2012, 08:08:51 PM »
LetsRock-I gotta hand it to you, that was very impressive!  I figured the cordage couldn't hold up to the friction, but I guess that's another reason to learn the Egyptian method.  Very nice work you did on this, thanks for sharing!!

Offline kanukkarhu

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 5892
  • Canadian Woods Loafer & Certified Nobody
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2012, 12:00:12 PM »
I'm just to hear to say that friction fire in Manitoba Canada HASN'T died off - it's just taken a bit of a holiday, is all... ;)
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2012, 02:04:48 PM »
Good deal KK. :thumbsup:

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2012, 06:13:46 PM »
Like your Ray Mears quote, KK. But I like these better.

"Bushcraft is what you carry in your mind and your muscles."

"The great thing about bushcraft is that wherever you go, the skills go with you."

"Knowledge is the key to survival and the best thing about that is: it doesn't weigh anything."

"You cannot underestimate the importance of preparation."

Give Les a call over in Ontario and you will have the firebow licked in no time. lol Just kidding.
Robert

Offline kanukkarhu

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 5892
  • Canadian Woods Loafer & Certified Nobody
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #116 on: August 01, 2012, 07:04:59 PM »
Like your Ray Mears quote, KK. But I like these better.

"Bushcraft is what you carry in your mind and your muscles."

"The great thing about bushcraft is that wherever you go, the skills go with you."

"Knowledge is the key to survival and the best thing about that is: it doesn't weigh anything."

"You cannot underestimate the importance of preparation."

Give Les a call over in Ontario and you will have the firebow licked in no time. lol Just kidding.

Hahaha!  Yea, I like Les.

I like those quotes too.

I chose that particular RM quote tho because, first, he kinda introduced me to the gentlemen's art of bushcraft  - which is a lot like just hangin' out and enjoying time out of doors - and I've been disgusted by what I see as the ever-increasing trend to make "bushcraft" into like an extreme sport or something.  I thought that quote brought it "down home" again.  For me anyway!  :)
 
I am off here soon for a coupla weeks and I am making  a run for the hills.  During that time, the art of fire by friction will... be... MINE!!! Mu-hahahahahaaaa! >:D

(Plus I've been super busy!)

KK
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #117 on: August 01, 2012, 07:20:11 PM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
and I've been disgusted by what I see as the ever-increasing trend to make "bushcraft" into like an extreme sport or something.

Ah, well all those TV shows and personalities are entertainment value anyway, not instruction. If they were instruction nobody would want to watch them. These personalities get their show and then they get their endorsements. Its all about the $.
Robert

Offline kanukkarhu

  • Diamond Stone
  • ****
  • Posts: 5892
  • Canadian Woods Loafer & Certified Nobody
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #118 on: August 01, 2012, 09:28:57 PM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
and I've been disgusted by what I see as the ever-increasing trend to make "bushcraft" into like an extreme sport or something.

Ah, well all those TV shows and personalities are entertainment value anyway, not instruction. If they were instruction nobody would want to watch them. These personalities get their show and then they get their endorsements. Its all about the $.

True enough. 

I also see lots of "ordinary" people (although NOT here) pushing so called 'dirt time', 'certification' of this and that... pushing others to 'prove' their skills etc. 

I prefer what we got going here in this thread: zero judgement. LOTS of great info and encouragement.  Exchange of ideas, back and forth, and no one called anyone out yet!!  THIS is great, and this, IMHO, is bushcraft.  We all want each other to learn and grow and enjoy ourselves, but at out own pace.  A lot like if we were talking one night around a campfire, I think...

 :soap:  Rant over.  Sorry.  :(
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2012, 09:48:21 PM »
[...
I also see lots of "ordinary" people (although NOT here) pushing so called 'dirt time', 'certification' of this and that... pushing others to 'prove' their skills etc. 
....

 :soap:  Rant over.  Sorry.  :(
No rant!!! QFT!
 And to those of the mindset in the highlighted paragraph, I say... "....and the horse you rode in on!"   :P
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline wolfy

  • Supporting Member
  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 17593
  • "You want a toe? I can get you a toe." -Sobchak
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #120 on: August 01, 2012, 10:19:29 PM »
[...
I also see lots of "ordinary" people (although NOT here) pushing so called 'dirt time', 'certification' of this and that... pushing others to 'prove' their skills etc. 
....

 :soap:  Rant over.  Sorry.  :(
No rant!!! QFT!
 And to those of the mindset in the highlighted paragraph, I say... "....and the horse you rode in on!"   :P

+1 :hail:
The only chance you got at a education is listenin' to me talk!
Augustus McCrae.....Texas Ranger      Lonesome Dove, TX

Offline TwinBlade

  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 921
  • One Nation, Under God
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #121 on: August 01, 2012, 11:36:38 PM »
All of that minus this elitist, snobbish, groupie, my knife can beat up your knife, fan boy attitude.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.  Liberty is a well-armed lamb.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2012, 07:57:57 AM »
Quote from: kanukkarhu
I also see lots of "ordinary" people (although NOT here) pushing so called 'dirt time', 'certification' of this and that... pushing others to 'prove' their skills etc. 

I will tell you why they do that. A lot of folks just talk and don't practice the skills and it is evident in what they say that they have spent no time on the skills whatsoever. Even some books are published by folks that have written what others have done before but have not done it themselves. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk. So you need to pick your skills reading material accordingly. I don't think there ought to be any "certification" of this or that. This can get into politics that is censored here. Here is what John McPherson had to say about it:

Quote from: John McPherson, Primitive Wilderness Skills, Applied & Advanced, p.188
And while I'm on the subject of politics - would you believe that we have seen in print that some people seem to think that there should be rules to govern people doing just the sort of stuff that we are writing about? Duh! Talk about big government. Fini

Some folks don't like the idea that you the individual person are self-sufficient and independent (self-reliant) via your own skills no longer needing the social infrastructure that we have today in this artificial society to survive. Again its all about $. If you don't need them, their services and products they think, then you threaten their livelihood. So they want to take away your freedom and liberty so they can live off you.

The sad fact is that no one can truly live the wilderness lifestyle long term and they don't know that. You can do it short term, meaning you will have a short life span. Why? Our ancestors long ago gave up the hunter gatherer lifestyle because the wilderness (its called that for a reason) cannot support human life long term. So they needed agriculture both plant crops and domesticated animals to survive long term. They also needed medical attention and to do those things you need a community.

Okay. My rant done. :soap: :deadhorse:
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #123 on: August 02, 2012, 08:21:16 AM »
Alrighty then...

Here's another video where I show how I make and use natural cordage for the bow drill bowstring (using Saw Palmetto). The video's a little long, just over 16 minutes, as I mainly show harvesting and processing of the natural cordage. Overall, it took about 2 hours from foraging to flame. I've been practicing trying to go all natural. The only man-made thing I used was the main blade on my Swiss Army Knife. Eventually, I'd like to be able to use only natural tools & materials. I used Longleaf Yellow Pine and Saw Palmetto to make the set.



Here's a hi-res photo of the set I used:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:26:26 AM by LetsRock »

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #124 on: August 02, 2012, 08:45:41 AM »
Great, LR. :) We are indeed on the same page. I can see that grapevine leaf used for socket lube. I use it too.

Quote from: LetsRock
The only man-made thing I used was the main blade on my Swiss Army Knife. Eventually, I'd like to be able to use only natural tools & materials.

Then you will have to go to Brooksville quarry or some bridge rip-rap to get any chert here for a good natural rock edge. FL just doesn't have any natural rocks for breaking into an edge otherwise. Or buy some chert or flint for an edge. Or do it without an edge by breaking the parts and shaping them by grinding.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 09:00:28 AM by RBM »
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2012, 09:02:29 AM »
Yup, you're right! Finding usable rocks is not very common in Florida. I actually have some good rocks I found in Ocala National Forest. I've also toyed with using sea shells. Breaking and splitting wood into workable pieces seems do-able as well. Working with checks (cracks) is another option. Just gotta kinda look around a bit harder for these types of options and think how to 'make do' somehow, ha ha. I'll keep practicing.

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2012, 11:31:27 AM »
It's a bit of a shame the FL climate being so humid means artifacts made of natural materials like wood don't usually survive. It would e neat to see how pre-Columbian Florida people made fire. What materials they used, and how they shaped them into a useable form.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »
It's a bit of a shame the FL climate being so humid means artifacts made of natural materials like wood don't usually survive. It would e neat to see how pre-Columbian Florida people made fire. What materials they used, and how they shaped them into a useable form.
You might need SCUBA gear to do that.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-12-03/news/9104190110_1_clovis-people-prehistoric-artifacts
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2012, 12:01:18 PM »
I process my palmetto stem a little differently. I don't smash it to get the fibers. Some things I do smash but I don't with palmetto stem. It seems to me that the stiffness of the skin will remain even when wet and I don't want to damage the skin by smashing to loosen it. First thing I do is make sure there are no rattlers around the palmetto or guinea wasps under the fronds. I first run my knife along the sides of the stem to remove the saw spines. Then I cut the stem off at the base and then the frond leaving only the stem. I insert the knife blade on one end of the stem near the flat side and push down and in leaving me with the intact green outer stem strip. This requires some practice without cutting the skin. Just splitting the stem down its length will also work. Then work the strip breaking away the white inner fibers from the green skin one section at a time so I don't tear the skin. Once I have the length of skin I take smaller full length strips from that and cord them splicing in where I need more length. The stiffness does make it harder to cord and harder on the fingers. But your fingers get stronger by doing it.

This link shows the standard method for cording a single two ply cord. However I do not leg roll the same way as it shows. I leg roll like McPherson keeping the twisted lengths tight while rolling is critical. Some fibers like the palmetto skin or some green barks are too stiff to leg roll.

http://www.primitiveways.com/cordage.html

It even shows splicing the same way I do. Just lay a new length on the short end and fold the tag end (about one inch long) of the length over on the long end. Then keep cording. See figure 5 diagram. Much easier and faster than trying to blend individual fibers into a short section.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 12:15:09 PM by RBM »
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2012, 02:21:59 PM »
Yeah, my natural cordage approach is kinda crude on purpose. The logic being I'd like to be able to make something up quick and still have a good success rate with the bow drill. Like, if I got lost on a day hike, only have a couple hours of daylight left, and all I have is a basic pocket knife and velcro sneakers, ha ha.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2012, 04:39:44 PM »
Oh, I agree. The goal is the coal. Does not matter how you get there. If it works, use it. Nothing wrong with any approach as long as it works. I got some bad pine today so no coal. I don't think it was seasoned enough but the palmetto cord burned through two holes before it broke so that is good for a single cord as far as I am concerned.

As long as I have a modern cord, I will use it even if its my shoestrings. Let's face it, modern cords are stronger. I only use a plant fiber cords if I have to but I do practice it and I know I can use them and have successfully many times. Any cord will break eventually.
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2012, 06:44:59 PM »
Yup, that's why I like the popular flying quote, "Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing." Whatever way works, easy, hard, or anywhere in between.

I should have mentioned it took me several attempts before I was successful in my last vid. I ended up replacing the fireboard and bearing-block before finally getting success. I took about 1.5 hours of video footage, but in an effort to save time and minimize boredom I condensed it down to 16 minutes or so (which is still a long time in YouTube time). The problem in doing so means missing out on the troubleshooting and overcoming problems encountered along the way. Especially with fresh unproven materials. So, the success you see in my vid was not my one and only as it may seem, but my 3rd attempt. The good thing is the natural bowstring held up beautifully the whole time. So, it was durable enough for multiple attempts.

To be honest, I wasn't really sure I'd even be successful as it was another hot & humid day and the weather can be a big factor. If anyone noticed, it took me well over a minute of effort going for the coal. Generally, it shouldn't take that long, but I've been trying to figure out how to better deal with the high-humidity factor. Moisture is friction fire's Kryptonite.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 07:06:44 PM by LetsRock »

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2012, 07:05:55 PM »
Quote from: LetsRock
To be honest, I wasn't really sure I'd even be successful as it was another hot & humid day and the weather can be a big factor. If anyone noticed, it took me well over a minute of effort going for the coal. Generally, it shouldn't take that long, but I've been trying to figure out how to better deal with the high-humidity factor. Moisture is friction fire's Kryptonite.

Yep. It does take a little longer when its humid. Spring and Summer is humidity time so you can expect to sweat a little more and the mugginess and the slight dampness that gets in the wood. Did I mention the pests? The deerflies, horseflies, mosquitoes, Blackflies, and gnats? At least the gnats don't bite.
Robert

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #133 on: August 05, 2012, 06:45:53 PM »
Made another cord and set earlier this evening. The seasoned pine was not top notch. The pine board just barely passed (I had to really pick the right spot on the board it was that bad after two other burn holes) but the pine spindle, as straight as it looked gave me problems as it wore down and began to woller around at the working end (I had to straightened the end several times). That just won't work. So I went and grabbed the straightest yucca spindle I could find (it had a split in it). Got a coal and blew to flame. Palmetto cord lasted through all of that and did not break. I did take it easy on the cord as I worked it (just spun with light pressure) and that helped.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 07:00:58 PM by RBM »
Robert

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2012, 08:04:03 AM »
Excellent, RBM. Yeah, part of the fun is finding stuff that'll work. It's rare for me to find materials and make 'em work the first time out.

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #135 on: August 06, 2012, 04:34:51 PM »
Thanks to RBM, LR, and others for making this probably the single most comprehensive friction fire thread on the web!  :thumbsup:

I came across this by accident. I guess it solves the problem of making fire if you have a broken arm. Although it looks like one of the prerequisites is being double jointed, or having no hip joints at all!  :P

The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #136 on: August 06, 2012, 05:49:47 PM »
Using your leg as a firebow. Well just when you thought you have seen it all.

There are a lot of other friction fire methods besides the firebow but most are just more labor intensive than the firebow that has the best efficiency. I know there are a lot of handdrill folks out there. Add firesaw, fire thong, fire plow, and so on.
Robert

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #137 on: August 06, 2012, 05:56:04 PM »
Yeah I think that leg bow thing is best left for those in their teens and 20's, lol!

Though oddly enough that video makes me wonder how many cool friction fire possibilities a person would have if they were stranded with a bicycle. Remember the Survivorman episode where he had a Mtn. bike? I'll bet something could be worked up using the cranks, bearings, tires, etc. I have personally gotten a lot of smoke from a bit of dry juniper trying to saw it in two with a bicycle brake cable. The sawing was slow, but it generated a LOT of heat. The wood itself was smoking quite a bit.

Offline upthecreek

  • Charred Cloth Challenge
  • Global Moderator
  • Diamond Stone
  • *****
  • Posts: 5659
  • Friction Fire Fellowship & River Rat
    • my youtube
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #138 on: August 06, 2012, 06:06:00 PM »
So easy a caveman could do it!

Creek  :chopwood:
Axes Rock!

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2012, 06:30:15 PM »
That Maslin is apparently a high-powered friction fire guru in the UK. Never heard of him 'til I stumbled on that video. I have no idea how old he is, but he's more flexible than I ever was!

Quick reference from Wiki:
Quote
Maslin is a senior instructor for the British Bushcraft School,[4] and inventor of a new method of creating fire by friction, The Maslin Leg Drill,[5] that enables a person to create fire by friction using only one arm?theoretically making it possible to do with a broken arm. According to Maslin's Twitter account, he is currently hitchhiking over every landmass from Australia to England.[6]

Still working on my Fire Pump as time permits.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:33:58 PM by Old Philosopher »
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2012, 06:33:44 PM »
Quote from: PetrifiedWood
Though oddly enough that video makes me wonder how many cool friction fire possibilities a person would have if they were stranded with a bicycle. Remember the Survivorman episode where he had a Mtn. bike? I'll bet something could be worked up using the cranks, bearings, tires, etc. I have personally gotten a lot of smoke from a bit of dry juniper trying to saw it in two with a bicycle brake cable. The sawing was slow, but it generated a LOT of heat. The wood itself was smoking quite a bit.

Sounds like a Fire Thong, PW. PNG Traditional Fire Making. PNG, that's Papua New Guinea.



The "string" used is a strip of bamboo. The wood is a local forest soft wood, with the tinder being bamboo shavings and palm fibres.
Robert

Offline RBM

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 501
  • Philippians 4:13
    • YouTube Channel
Robert

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2012, 08:32:35 PM »
Quote from: Old Philosopher
Still working on my Fire Pump as time permits.

Good luck with that!

http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/pumpdrill/pumpdrillNN.html

http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/pumpdrill/pumpdrill01.html

http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/pumpdrill/pumpdrillAA.html
Thanks! You're going to crack up when you see my solution to the "fly wheel" balancing act.
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2012, 09:30:42 PM »
I'll bet you could make a flywheel out of adobe reinforced with some strong plant fibers that would work pretty good. You'd just need a bowl shaped "mold" with a hole in the bottom for the end of the spindle. Then when it's dried it would be molded onto the spindle and ready to go. You'd probably want a few pegs sticking out the sides of the spindle to hold the adobe in place.

Offline Red

  • Maker of Sub-Par Knives
  • Global Moderator
  • Water Stone
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
  • Scorched Earther
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2012, 10:01:58 AM »
you guys should talk to LetsRock, he has done these types of things before ;)

"Big drama next few hours.. But whatever happens, no matter what they tell you.. Don't let 'em take them chains off me.."

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #145 on: August 07, 2012, 01:32:16 PM »
you guys should talk to LetsRock, he has done these types of things before ;)

LOL! I think LR is just sitting back waiting to laugh at my fly wheel.  ;)
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #146 on: August 07, 2012, 03:19:16 PM »
Cool, Red! I forgot you got that on video. It always seems to be more challenging when demonstrating in front of other people for some reason, ha ha. That fireboard wobbled all over the place there. It woulda worked better if it was firmly on the ground.

I won't laugh at your pump drill, Old Philosopher. If it works, that's really what matters. If anything, it could be a conversation piece, ha ha.

I've made several pump drill vids. Here's one where I demo a mini pump drill and also show a medium & a large sized pump drill in comparison. Each crudely put together. So, no aesthetic prizes with these, but they work.



They're not too bad to make, but having a good understanding of the friction fire process helps because you have to make sure there's a balance between inertia, weight, and pressure (when pumping in both directions). Too much of one and not enough of the other can keep it from working well.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 03:32:01 PM by LetsRock »

Offline Old Philosopher

  • Belt Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 15684
  • "I have an opinion about that...."
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2012, 03:38:02 PM »
Nice vid! Thanks.
My goal is to make a pump out of materials I'd find after I got myself in a fix and need fire without planning ahead. No drilling, no wheels, etc.  For a one-shot-deal like I'm contemplating, I will probably not worry about a socket for the spindle. I see the wisdom in that if you are going to keep the pump in your kit, and use it over and over.

But here's a really super-basic question I don't think I've heard, or I over looked somehow:

Is the coal formed from sawdust from the hearth board, or from the spindle?
The more I understand, the less I know. Pretty soon I'll understand everything, and know nothing.

Offline PetrifiedWood

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Administrator
  • Belt Grinder
  • ******
  • Posts: 11233
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #148 on: August 07, 2012, 03:40:42 PM »
Seems to me it comes from both. But whichever wood is harder will erode slower.

Offline LetsRock

  • Friction Fire Fellowship
  • Whetstone +
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • Tampa, FL
Re: Friction Fire Fellowship
« Reply #149 on: August 07, 2012, 05:10:01 PM »
PW's got it right. The dust comes from both much like the bow & hand drills.

Well, give it a go your way. I've seen a couple vids where the pump drill is made from all natural materials. I'll eventually give it a try myself, but I don't think I could have pulled it off without experience making and using the man-made pump drills first. Finding a straight enough spindle and good counter-weight materials will add to the challenge. Even better if you can use natural cordage too. Good luck!