Author Topic: Popular knife edge profiles  (Read 305 times)

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Offline Moe M.

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Popular knife edge profiles
« on: July 13, 2017, 09:19:04 AM »
  This thread is not about custom or production knives specifically,  it's about knife edge grinds in general, so if it's in the wrong section the mods can move it to where ever it belongs.

  What generated this discussion is a spin off from my original thread on my experience with the Work Sharp knife sharpening system based on the Ken Onion Edition knife sharpener,  when I first reviewed the tool there was some mention that the tool was specific to convex edge grinds,  inferring that it could not be used on other edge profiles such as Scandi edged, full flat grinds, hollow grinds, or what ever other grinds are offered today,  and that is true to a point.
  The original Work Sharp and the newer Ken Onion Edition will work well on any convex edged blade but it will if used on any other type of knife change it to a convex edge,  the Ken Onion model however has a blade grinding attachment that allows the user to more or less grind a blade to any edge they prefer, but it has to be done freehand without the help of accurate blade guides,  the end result will depend on the skill and accuracy of the user.
 
  All that said,  now starts the discussion,  not long ago while researching reviews for a specific knife I happened on a video of an interview by the host of a popular Bushcraft/Survival channel (who's name escapes me at the moment) with Jim Nokia, the head of American Knife Co.
  The two were discussing a promo of Nokia's new line of Bushcraft knives based on Mors Kohanski's Skookum Bush Tool made popular by Rod Garcia,  the knife called the American Forest knife is a close clone of Rod Garcia's Skookum Bush Tool and comes in three different blade lengths,  American Knife Co. markets the knives,  but they are actually made by Bark River Knife and Tool, there's the original Forest Knife at 4"'s, a shorter one at 3-3/4"'s called the Compact Forest knife, and a longer version with a 5" inch blade called the Forest ll.
  During the interview the conversation turned to the edge grind,  the original SBT has a Scandi edge while the AKC Forest knives have a Convex edge,  it was noted by Jim Nokia that the Scandi edge grind is a fairly new offering that was introduced by MoraKnives back when Mora transitioned from making their knives mostly by hand to making them by machine in order to produce them as cheaply as possible,  "it was easier to get consistent results putting a flat grind on either side of their blades by machining than it was to try to get the convex edge they used on their hand finished knives".
  Now, if that statement is accurate,  then what follows must also be accurate,  and food for debate,  Nokia went on to say that Mora actually stated in their marketing literature that once received the new owners should strop the edges to create a more convex edge on their new knives in order to prevent the factory edge (Scandi) from rolling or chipping under lateral stress of using the knife.
  One of my main gripes with Mora knives that I didn't have back in the '60's and '70's when I was using Mora hunting and fishing knives is that the new Mora knives with the Scandi edge does chip and roll more easily than other outdoor knives that I use that have convex edges or other types of beveled and micro edges.
  It probably goes a long way in explaining why most custom knife makers choose to convex their blades or use micro bevels on their "Scandi" type edges to make them stronger and hold an edge longer.

  What say you ? 
 
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 11:38:33 AM »
I say, "Keep using that old convexed Opinel you found, then get in line for one of Sarge's new convexed Kepharts and you'll have all the bases covered!"  :coffee:
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 01:38:03 PM »
I read, a couple of years or so ago, a discussion between the owner of a production company and a custom knife maker.  They talked at length about grinds and which were preferred and why.  I don't remember who it was or where it was but this is what that discussion left me with;  The hollow ground blade is the easiest for a company or person to make and is strong enough for any "normal" use.  It is not the strongest but will hold up well doing about anything a knife should be used for.  It is a better slicer and skinner than the other grinds.  The flat grinds and scandi grinds are easier to make with a machine but most wind up with a secondary bevel after the user sharpens them a few times.  The convex edge is harder to make.  It is a strong edge but they both thought it's strength is a bit of overkill for normal usage.  If one batons a lot or cuts hard material it is the best grind.

So a person needs to know, to some degree, what they are going to do with a blade.  For instance my preference is for hollow grind skinners and that is about all I use them for.  For an all around do anything knife my preference is convex followed closely by a scandinavian grind.
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Offline lgm

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 02:40:26 PM »
Great topic,
Their are many more then just scandi, convex & hollow grinds.  The kephart Sarge. is making is a convexed rhombus grind. Then there are chisel, saber, flat and many more.
All have their place.
I prefer a flat , well done convex or even a flat grind with a convex edge. I am not a big fan of scandi for the same reasons Moe stated.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 04:57:07 PM by lgm »
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 03:34:50 PM »
I say, "Keep using that old convexed Opinel you found, then get in line for one of Sarge's new convexed Kepharts and you'll have all the bases covered!"  :coffee:
LOL!

Most knives I've used (and made) have had flat grinds w/ secondary bevels. Guess I'm most comfortable making, using, and sharpening those. Next would be a Scandi grind. I prefer a Scandi with a micro bevel because it is easier to touch up the edge and not have to hone and polish the entire bevel. When grinding a blade with a Scandi bevel, it is easier (for me) to leave a bit a steel for a micro bevel. Because I grind cutting edge up, it can be scary going to a Scandi zero. When the zero edge cuts into the grinding belt...be ready to change your shorts.

I have minimal experience with hollow, convex, and the other types but I'm really interested in convex right now. With my first attempt at a convex grind, I punted and put a secondary bevel on it. I'll try to get closer to a zero convex on my next try,
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Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 04:16:53 PM »
I would like to see the Mora marketing literature that states users should put a convex edge on their knives.

The irony is that a convex grind is easier for someone grinding by hand to produce than a scandi. You can make a very good convex grind freehand on a slack belt as opposed to needing a platen and careful attention to getting it even to grind a scandi. My first few knives were convex until I got things set up better and was able to make a nice scandi.

Any small operation making semi-custom knives (by hand) will probably opt for convex grinds as they are the easiest to produce (by hand).

Not to disparage what Sarge was saying. I guess different people with different grinding setups will have different experiences. I had this all written up before he posted and hit "send", lol!

Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 04:43:45 PM »
Like almost everyone here, I have more knives with more and different bevels than I need and in some cases, even want. :doh:   Dad's old Scandinavian-ground Brusletto/Morseth was what I first used as a hunting knife when I was a mere lad of 16.  It took a heckuvan edge and kept it through several deer 'field dressings,' but I didn't think it was worth diddly for slicing the meat into steaks.....as a matter of fact, I think it might be the worst of all the grinds out there for that task. 

Plain old flat-ground blades are hard to beat for most jobs, but hollow-ground blades excel for a hunting knife where deep cuts through animal flesh are called for.  I never used a saber-ground blade that I particularly liked, although they do provide the 'backbone' that may be needed for rougher types of service......I dun'no. ???

I guess through trial, and more than my share of error, I have come to believe that the convex-ground blade is the most versatile for my intents and purposes.  I came to that conclusion when I found myself using my most humble, but obedient, #8 carbon-bladed Opinel for more things that call for control in cutting almost anything within reason.  To be totally honest, I use that little knife more than any I own.....with the possible exception of my old, battle-scarred, Victorinox SAK.  That old Opinel cuts meat, vegetables & fruit almost every single day and does it better than than most knives in our knife block.  It's field-dressed at least 2....possibly 3 deer and skinned or been called on to help skin countless others, cleaned & cut up squirrels, rabbits & fish, cut long lengths of rope and paracord into usable pieces, split kindling, shaved fuzz sticks, started many fires with flint and ferro-rod, performed minor surgery, manicured nails, won many games of 'stretch,' & in most cases, without having to resort to abrasives.....broug ht back to a shaving-edge with nothing more than a smooth, polishing steel! :thumbsup:

The only job that I've ever run into where it REALLY SUCKS is getting into the bottom of the peanut butter jar!   For that and every other task that I can think of, I am hoping that Sarge fulfills my greatest quest and makes me a modern copy of the complicatedly-ground, convex knife that every woodsman's woodsman, Horace Kephart, used to carry......I will call it THE WOLFHART! 8)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 04:53:41 PM by wolfy »
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Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 06:22:25 PM »
I have a lot of knives, and most were made for me to my specifications.
For processing dead animals,  hollow grind is my choice. 
For bushcrafting,  Scandi is my favored grind,  but a good saber grind or even a full flat grind works well. 
I use a knife for a specific purpose.  I don't have many 'general use' knives.

Online imnukensc

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 07:25:50 PM »
I'm pretty much sold on convex edges since I discovered them 10 or 12 years ago or whenever it was.  I think every knife I own with the exception of my butter knives and my one bread knife has a convex edge on it.  They didn't all come with one, but whether they were hollow ground with a V edge or full flat grind with a V edge or whatever the grind of the blade was, they've all had their edges converted to convex.  I have a Kalamazoo 1X42 belt grinder so converting edges to convex is pretty simple.  Other than the initial conversion to convex the only thing I use the Kalamazoo for is lawn mower blades, an occasional axe touch up, knocking burrs off something in the shop, etc.  I sharpen freehand and find the convex edge easy to maintain and they seem to hold that edge longer in my use.
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2017, 09:52:02 AM »
I would like to see the Mora marketing literature that states users should put a convex edge on their knives.

The irony is that a convex grind is easier for someone grinding by hand to produce than a scandi. You can make a very good convex grind freehand on a slack belt as opposed to needing a platen and careful attention to getting it even to grind a scandi. My first few knives were convex until I got things set up better and was able to make a nice scandi.

Any small operation making semi-custom knives (by hand) will probably opt for convex grinds as they are the easiest to produce (by hand).


Not to disparage what Sarge was saying. I guess different people with different grinding setups will have different experiences. I had this all written up before he posted and hit "send", lol!

  Like you, I've never read anything from Mora that says the edges of their knives should be stropped creating a convex edge,  but that doesn't mean that at some time past when Mora transitioned their materials and manufacturing methods from hand to machine that information wasn't passed on in their literature.
  It's no secret around here that I'm not fond of Mora knives,  not because they don't work,  they do,  I just think that they get blown all out of proportion to their value and quality,  IMHO they are cheaply made utility knives, as such they lack looks and refinement, and they have very little residual value.
  But for the record, I didn't always think that way, I used Mora hunting and fishing knives exclusively through the '60's and '70's and loved them,  Mora knives before they went to full production made knives were made of "pure" steel, finished by hand, sported comfortable contoured handles of birch wood, and came in sewn and riveted leather sheaths,  they were what I considered to be quality sportsman's knives.
  Todays Mora knives for the most part are made of sandwiched steel, machine finished, sport either plain cheap hardwood or plastic handles,  and cheap plastic sheaths,  they lack warmth, looks, and intrinsic value,  and the few that I've used haven't held up well under rough use.
  So, judging by my experience with Mora since their transition I have to believe what I've seen in those reviews.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2017, 11:16:53 AM »
"Sandwiched steel?"  :shrug:
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 12:37:49 PM »
"Sandwiched steel?"  :shrug:

  I have no experience with Mora's newer more expensive knives so I can't speak to them,  but their standard low end knives have laminated blades,  tempered steel sandwiched between soft steel, something like wrapped pole axe heads, if you have a Mora with the red handle, a Mora #1 or #2 companion carbon look at the spine of the knife, you can see where it's laminated,  they do this to save money on blade material.
  I first noticed it on a Mora #2 carbon that I have,  it wouldn't strike a ferro rod,  so I took a file to it to square the spine off and even it out,  that's when I noticed the lamination marks, they run through the blade and can't be filed out.
  I later read an article on line about Mora blades that explained how they are made,  it's not a new construct,  some expensive blades are made that way,  the blades used on Falkkniven VG-10 blades are laminated that way,  but they use a much better steel and higher quality laminating.
 
  But I think we're getting off the topic of edge grinds,  the last thing I want is to get into a rant on Mora knives,  it's always a touchy subject with some people,  kind of like Ruger vs. Smith & Wesson,  some things are better left alone,  and I guess I'm just as guilty as the next guy.
  My last words on Mora knives is, I don't blame Mora for marketing cheap utility quality knives,  they are better than most brands of the type in my opinion,  when Mora changed over to machine production they did it because they recognized that they had made themselves a place in the outdoor market,  they had to improve production and keep the cost to a minimum yet still put out a usable product at a price nobody could compete with,  and they did it quite well,  I still believe in the old saw,  you get what you pay for,  when you buy a knife for $12.00,  all you're getting is a $12.00 dollar knife,  you can't expect it to look and perform like a $100.00 knife.
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Offline Sarge

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 03:59:15 PM »
Like almost everyone here, I have more knives with more and different bevels than I need and in some cases, even want. :doh:   Dad's old Scandinavian-ground Brusletto/Morseth was what I first used as a hunting knife when I was a mere lad of 16.  It took a heckuvan edge and kept it through several deer 'field dressings,' but I didn't think it was worth diddly for slicing the meat into steaks.....as a matter of fact, I think it might be the worst of all the grinds out there for that task. 

Plain old flat-ground blades are hard to beat for most jobs, but hollow-ground blades excel for a hunting knife where deep cuts through animal flesh are called for.  I never used a saber-ground blade that I particularly liked, although they do provide the 'backbone' that may be needed for rougher types of service......I dun'no. ???

I guess through trial, and more than my share of error, I have come to believe that the convex-ground blade is the most versatile for my intents and purposes.  I came to that conclusion when I found myself using my most humble, but obedient, #8 carbon-bladed Opinel for more things that call for control in cutting almost anything within reason.  To be totally honest, I use that little knife more than any I own.....with the possible exception of my old, battle-scarred, Victorinox SAK.  That old Opinel cuts meat, vegetables & fruit almost every single day and does it better than than most knives in our knife block.  It's field-dressed at least 2....possibly 3 deer and skinned or been called on to help skin countless others, cleaned & cut up squirrels, rabbits & fish, cut long lengths of rope and paracord into usable pieces, split kindling, shaved fuzz sticks, started many fires with flint and ferro-rod, performed minor surgery, manicured nails, won many games of 'stretch,' & in most cases, without having to resort to abrasives.....broug ht back to a shaving-edge with nothing more than a smooth, polishing steel! :thumbsup:

The only job that I've ever run into where it REALLY SUCKS is getting into the bottom of the peanut butter jar!   For that and every other task that I can think of, I am hoping that Sarge fulfills my greatest quest and makes me a modern copy of the complicatedly-ground, convex knife that every woodsman's woodsman, Horace Kephart, used to carry......I will call it THE WOLFHART! 8)
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 04:03:53 PM »
Like almost everyone here, I have more knives with more and different bevels than I need and in some cases, even want. :doh:   Dad's old Scandinavian-ground Brusletto/Morseth was what I first used as a hunting knife when I was a mere lad of 16.  It took a heckuvan edge and kept it through several deer 'field dressings,' but I didn't think it was worth diddly for slicing the meat into steaks.....as a matter of fact, I think it might be the worst of all the grinds out there for that task. 

Plain old flat-ground blades are hard to beat for most jobs, but hollow-ground blades excel for a hunting knife where deep cuts through animal flesh are called for.  I never used a saber-ground blade that I particularly liked, although they do provide the 'backbone' that may be needed for rougher types of service......I dun'no. ???

I guess through trial, and more than my share of error, I have come to believe that the convex-ground blade is the most versatile for my intents and purposes.  I came to that conclusion when I found myself using my most humble, but obedient, #8 carbon-bladed Opinel for more things that call for control in cutting almost anything within reason.  To be totally honest, I use that little knife more than any I own.....with the possible exception of my old, battle-scarred, Victorinox SAK.  That old Opinel cuts meat, vegetables & fruit almost every single day and does it better than than most knives in our knife block.  It's field-dressed at least 2....possibly 3 deer and skinned or been called on to help skin countless others, cleaned & cut up squirrels, rabbits & fish, cut long lengths of rope and paracord into usable pieces, split kindling, shaved fuzz sticks, started many fires with flint and ferro-rod, performed minor surgery, manicured nails, won many games of 'stretch,' & in most cases, without having to resort to abrasives.....broug ht back to a shaving-edge with nothing more than a smooth, polishing steel! :thumbsup:

The only job that I've ever run into where it REALLY SUCKS is getting into the bottom of the peanut butter jar!   For that and every other task that I can think of, I am hoping that Sarge fulfills my greatest quest and makes me a modern copy of the complicatedly-ground, convex knife that every woodsman's woodsman, Horace Kephart, used to carry......I will call it THE WOLFHART! 8)
:thumbsup:

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Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 10:26:50 AM »
I know Mora has produced some laminated steel knives, but those are actually on their more expensive knives. What you are seeing on the spine of the cheaper knives is just the rough edge of the steel left over from the stamped steel blade. I have seen this on the companion model, one of their cheaper ones. It disappears when you grind the spine flat for use with a ferro rod.

The laminated steel is more expensive because it encases harder steel that holds an edge better between two layers of tougher steel for.strength and flexibility.

I don't care to argue about Mora value or any of that either. But the cheap models definitely don't have laminated steel. That's a feature reserved for more expensive knives from pretty much any manufacturer because it increases strength and edge holding ability, and costs more to produce than homogenous steel.

Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 10:43:26 AM »
Yeah.....that's what I was a thinkin' too. ???
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 04:15:31 PM »
Frosts, now part of Mora, used to make laminated blades.  I have a laminated carving knife and it slices through wood very effectively. 
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 04:54:26 PM »
Frosts, now part of Mora, used to make laminated blades.  I have a laminated carving knife and it slices through wood very effectively. 

I tried finding laminated blades from Mora/Frost, but all I found were the small woodcarving blades. ???
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 05:19:25 PM »
deleted double post.  :-[ :P :shrug:
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2017, 06:57:56 PM »
I guess he'd rather be in Colorado.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Popular knife edge profiles
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2017, 07:43:17 PM »
Wolfy, look here: http://swedishknives.com/morakniv.htm
:thumbsup: Thanks, QC. :cheers:   I remember the full-page ads in the OLD Outdoor Life and Field & Stream magazines for those laminated knives.  As I recall, they showed a picture of it with the point piercing a coin and it came with a molded-leather sheath w/loop-type hanger.   $2.95 or close to it I think, but I'm not sure of the exact price.....that's been many moons ago. :shrug:
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