Author Topic: North Idaho bear attacks  (Read 646 times)

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Offline Old Philosopher

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North Idaho bear attacks
« on: August 05, 2017, 08:56:31 PM »
Just remember, black bears are warm and cuddly and more afraid of you than you should be of them.
 :sarcasm:

http://www.khq.com/story/36035276/jogger-injured-in-northern-idaho-black-bear-attack
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 08:22:23 AM »
  Over the years we've been educated and enlightened to the fact that "Animals are People too",  animated cartoons, videos, and movies depict all species of animals as thinking, rational, furry, cute, friendly, and benevolent creatures, who we as humans have to try to understand, not fear, have to forgive their occasional misdeeds for they don't operate in the same way as humans.
  It's not just children that are affected by this nonsense,  the more civilized and cityfied people get the more comfortable they get with the notion that if you don't mean the animals any harm they will relate to humans in kind,  somehow it's been lost to a big segment of our society that wild animals are "WILD",  they are first and foremost survivors,  they know hunger, fear, rage, and they also know how to overcome those obstacles,  they've been trained in how to survive in the wild.
  When they are hungry they hunt, kill, and eat what ever they perceive as food, when they are scared they run or they attack, and when they go into attack mode, they seldom quit until it's game is over,  the one thing we can be sure of about animals in the wild is that you never know what they will do next, they can be curious and gentle one minute and turn into a raging monster the next, at best they are unpredictable.
  Some of the attacks that I've read about were caused by the victims getting too close or unknowingly signaled aggression towards the animal, that's ignorance,  but many attacks by Bears and Mtn. Lions have been surprise attacks and ambushes,  that's just animals doing what they do best, surviving.
  Even domesticated animals have a wild side,  we have a pet cat who adopted us when he was just a kitten that had been abandoned and lived feral for several months, that was about eight years ago,  we called him Henry, he's about 23 pounds of Tuxedo cat, all muscle and cuteness, most of the time he's gentle, shows affection, and is predictable,  but there are other times when he's in his zone,  you'd best not interrupt his concentration, he will bite and use his claws just as any other Lion, Panther, or Bobcat.
  Any animal should be treated with respect, wonderment, and a great deal of caution. 
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Offline wolfy

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 11:15:26 AM »
......so, kind of the way the smart man treats his wife, too? :popcorn:
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 04:17:12 PM »
......so, kind of the way the smart man treats his wife, too? :popcorn:

...and in either case, not following the rules of engagement has similar repercussions.
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 06:13:19 PM »
When I camped with my family in Canada, I always had a Sawed Off 12ga with slugs.  Plainly against the law but I didn't grow up to be bear poop on the mountain.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 06:43:12 PM »
.... I always had a Sawed Off 12ga with slugs. ...
Best bear medicine bar none. When I was in Alaska, all the Fish & Wildlife, Wardens and most LEOs carried 12ga's. Not sawed off, of course...you're not supposed to wait until they are that close. :lol:
(A full length barrel also develops better velocity.)
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 08:16:45 PM »
A fellow I used to bird hunt with ran a fishing camp in Alaska for a number of years.  His constant companion was a 12 ga. pump shotgun with an 18" barrel.  He used a number of different loads but favored stuff from slugs to 4 buck or 00 buck most of the time. 

If it were me I want a big assed hand gun or a short barreled rifle at least .375 in bore size.  .458 would be better.   
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 04:49:28 AM »
I used the cropped Winchester because it was a beater and would easily fit in the camper.  Glad I never had to use it.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 05:12:32 PM »
A fellow I used to bird hunt with ran a fishing camp in Alaska for a number of years.  His constant companion was a 12 ga. pump shotgun with an 18" barrel.  He used a number of different loads but favored stuff from slugs to 4 buck or 00 buck most of the time. 

If it were me I want a big assed hand gun or a short barreled rifle at least .375 in bore size.  .458 would be better.   

A 12 ga slug is about .750 caliber.  Just sayin'....
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Offline wolfy

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 05:50:27 PM »
A fellow I used to bird hunt with ran a fishing camp in Alaska for a number of years.  His constant companion was a 12 ga. pump shotgun with an 18" barrel.  He used a number of different loads but favored stuff from slugs to 4 buck or 00 buck most of the time. 

If it were me I want a big assed hand gun or a short barreled rifle at least .375 in bore size.  .458 would be better.   

A 12 ga slug is about .750 caliber.  Just sayin'....
I think a .75 caliber ball is closer to an 11 gauge.  A 12 gauge is around .72-.73 caliber. 
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 06:05:23 PM »
A 12 ga slug is about .750 caliber.  Just sayin'....

As Wolfy says......... standard cylinder bore is .729.  But the point is a rifle in .375 or .458 Win carries  much more energy and penetration than a 12 ga. particularly at distances over about 40 yards.   A pistol in .458 with a 250 grain slub at 1600 fps is also a good penetrator assuming you can hit them with one.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 07:49:55 PM »
A 12 ga slug is about .750 caliber.  Just sayin'....

As Wolfy says......... standard cylinder bore is .729.  But the point is a rifle in .375 or .458 Win carries  much more energy and penetration than a 12 ga. particularly at distances over about 40 yards.   A pistol in .458 with a 250 grain slub at 1600 fps is also a good penetrator assuming you can hit them with one.
...and therein lies the rub. Honestly, most people have enough trouble placing pistol rounds with a two-hand hold on a target range. 
Blindfold that person, then whip off the blindfold when you have a 600 lb motorcycle headed toward them at thirty mph from FEET away without warning. How good a hand-gun shot are they now?

IMHO, if a bear is 40 yds from you, you probably don't need to shoot him, anyway. And the difficulty in explaining a dead bear out of season increases with every yard separating you.

You guys are right about a 'standard' 12ga bore, but an open/improved cylinder bore can be up to .80"  I was generalizing.
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Offline Mannlicher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 06:15:26 AM »
any sort of outdoorsman would be a lot more aware than that.   If you are paying attention, a bear is not going to just blind side you.    I run into black bears in the Osceola and Ocala NF every now and then.  It has never been a surprise.

Offline Moe M.

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 06:42:41 AM »
  When the discussion turns to Bear guns and what to carry,  agreement seems to come hard, it's one of those topics where there are more opinions than solutions to the question.
  When it comes to real dangerous game I have very little experience,  the word "Dangerous" is subjective,  probably purely academic but I don't consider Deer, Moose, and Black Bear to be in the category of "Dangerous Game", not that they aren't dangerous and unpredictable, they are on occasion, but not as a rule, I've fished, hunted, and camped for allot of years all over New England and parts of Canada and never experienced aggression from those animals, but I've heard and read about Black bear attacks in certain areas, Maine's Baxter State Park has had it's share over the years, not far from me in western Ma. we had a couple of seasons when Bears were more aggressive than normal.
  In my area of the country 2 legged predators are probably the most dangerous animals you'll likely have to deal with,  and as a police officer the weapon of choice when aggression needed to be ended quickly was a 12ga. shotgun loaded with slugs.
  I've known quite a few Game Wardens in my day from all over NE,  when those folks get called out to track a large wounded and dangerous animal, they put their rifles away and grab a shotgun.
  I had a close friend who grew up poor and did allot of hunting from a very young age just to put food on the table, after high school and a stint in the army he went to work for a commercial painting contractor,  25 years later the man he worked for retired, he had no kids, his wife had passed on, and he was well off financially, he like Bob like a son,  and when he retired he handed the keys and the business over to Bob.
  Bob used to be a regular in our group at deer camp every year, and we shot trap and sporting clays together a couple of times a week,  but there came an end to that as his business grew,  we still shot sporting clays together on Thursday afternoons,  and occasionally shot trap at the club on Wed. nights,  but Bob has joined the Safari Club,  was hunting Kodiak Bears and taking month long Safari's in Africa, too rich for my blood,  but I was happy to listen to his adventures and glad that he had done well for himself.
  One day after a 100 bird sporting clays shoot a few of us regulars were sitting in the club house enjoying a couple of drinks and talking shop when the discussion turned to guns and dangerous game,  nobody at the table was more experienced on the subject than Bob who had hunted everything from Kodiak Bear to Lions and Water Buffalo in Africa,  when asked about what hunting guides in Africa or on Kodiak Island carried when forced to dispatch wounded or charging dangerous animals Bob said most all carry short barreled  12 Ga. shotguns loaded with slugs.
 The wife always tells me that I take to long to make a point, I think she exaggerates allot, but anyway,  if LE and dangerous game guides universally agree that the 12 Ga. shotgun is the best all around fight stopper to use when the brown stuff hits the fan,  I'm not going to be the one who disagrees.     
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »
Not too many bears in Texas but we do have alligators and feral hogs.  A big hog  can rip you from belly to brisket before you know it.  Texas has nearly 2 million hogs and there is no season or limit on hogs, you just need permission from the land owner.  Alligators seem to be less of a problem.  Back in the 60's and 70's when I fished the back country lakes in Colorado, I carried my Ruger .357 worn prominantly on my hip to ward of 2-legged snakes.  We had a lot of hippies who were robbing sportsmen who fished alone.
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 10:12:07 AM »
You guys are right about a 'standard' 12ga bore, but an open/improved cylinder bore can be up to .80"  I was generalizing.

I have never seen a 12 ga. shotgun bore as large as .80.  A 12 ga. cylinder bore is .729 to .730.  As you apply choke to the bore it gets smaller.  I have a screw in choke that constricts to .693 and there are tighter ones around than that.

The only 12 ga. guns that have larger bores than .730 are customized shot guns like the the old Becker back bored shotguns made for waterfowlers in the early to mid part of the 20th century.  They are quite rare these days.  There are some excellent articles on those back bored guns on the net, just google Becker back bore. 

Here is a chart of the standard bores of various gauges.

https://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/shotguns.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:04:48 PM by wsdstan »
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Offline wolfy

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 10:58:24 AM »
Ol' P must still be using that 12 ga. Blunderbuss he inherited. :shrug:
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 01:01:07 PM »
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously OP, a .80 shotgun would be larger than the bore on a 10 ga.
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Offline upnorth

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 07:30:08 PM »
Sorry but I don't have much sympathy for dumb azzez like this woman.
http://www.thecragandcanyon.ca/2017/08/07/woman-released-from-hospital-after-bear-attack

Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 09:07:40 PM »
Sorry but I don't have much sympathy for dumb azzez like this woman.
http://www.thecragandcanyon.ca/2017/08/07/woman-released-from-hospital-after-bear-attack

And just what makes you call this woman a "dumb azz"?  The sign in the photo was put up AFTER she was attacked.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 09:15:26 PM »
You guys are right about a 'standard' 12ga bore, but an open/improved cylinder bore can be up to .80"  I was generalizing.

I have never seen a 12 ga. shotgun bore as large as .80.  A 12 ga. cylinder bore is .729 to .730.  As you apply choke to the bore it gets smaller.  I have a screw in choke that constricts to .693 and there are tighter ones around than that.

The only 12 ga. guns that have larger bores than .730 are customized shot guns like the the old Becker back bored shotguns made for waterfowlers in the early to mid part of the 20th century.  They are quite rare these days.  There are some excellent articles on those back bored guns on the net, just google Becker back bore. 

Here is a chart of the standard bores of various gauges.

https://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/shotguns.html

Or....

Quote
Shotgun bores are commonly "overbored" or "backbored", meaning that most of the bore (from the forcing cone to the choke) is slightly larger than the value given by the formula. This is claimed to reduce felt recoil and improve patterning. The recoil reduction is due to the larger bore producing a slower acceleration of the shot, and the patterning improvements are due to the larger muzzle diameter for the same choke constriction, which results in less shot deformation. A 12-gauge shotgun, nominally 18.5 mm (0.73 in), can range from a tight 18.3 mm (0.72 in) to an extreme overbore of 20.3 mm (0.80 in). Some also claim an increased velocity with the overbored barrels, up to 15 m/s (49 ft/s), which is due to the larger swept volume of the overbored barrel. Once only found in expensive custom shotguns, overbored barrels are now becoming common in mass marketed guns. Aftermarket backboring is also commonly done to reduce the weight of the barrel, and move the center of mass backwards for a better balance. Factory overbored barrels generally are made with a larger outside diameter, and will not have this reduction in weight?though the factory barrels will be tougher, since they have a normal barrel wall thickness.

Firing slugs from overbored barrels can result in very inconsistent accuracy, as the slug may be incapable of obturating to fill the oversized bore.
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 10:33:18 PM »
I mentioned that the only over bore barrels that I have ever seen are custom guns.  I am not aware of one major manufacturer who bores their barrels to .80, some overbore a bit like Mossberg and Beretta but I cannot find one that approaches .80.  The largest overbore 12 ga. I have ever personally seen was a .775.  I don't know the source of your quote but I would like to know who said that.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 10:41:35 PM by wsdstan »
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2017, 10:46:03 PM »
I mentioned that the only over bore barrels that I have ever seen are custom guns.  I am not aware of one major manufacturer who bores their barrels to .80, some overbore a bit like Mossberg and Beretta but I cannot find one that approaches .80.  The largest overbore 12 ga. I have ever personally seen was a .775.  I don't know the source of your quote but I would like to know who said that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)#Gauges_in_use

I went back there to check the citations...but that statement didn't have one. You probably know a helluva lot more about shotguns than the author of that article. Nobody has dinged him for needing a citation, probably because they didn't understand a word he wrote. hahaha
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 05:55:44 AM »
From a sign posted outside a B.C. Lodge:


Due to the frequency of human-bear encounters, the B.C. Fish and Wildlife Branch is advising hikers, hunters, fishermen and any persons that use the out of doors in a recreational or work related function to take extra precautions while in the field.
We advise the outdoorsman to wear little noisy bells on clothing so as to give advanced warning to any bears that might be close by so you don?t take them by surprise.
We also advise anyone using the out-f-doors to carry ?Pepper Spray? with him is case of an encounter with a bear.
Outdoorsmen should also be on the watch for fresh bear activity, and be able to tell the difference between black bear feces and grizzly bear feces. Black bear feces is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear has bells in it and smells like pepper.
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Offline wolfy

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 07:22:43 AM »
That's an old joke and still amusing, BUT it's bass-ackwards, as far as factual information goes.  A grizz will seldom eat a human, they just attack to destroy a threat and then go their merry way.  Black bears and Polar bears, on the other hand, WILL attack and EAT a human with relish. :drool:
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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2017, 08:05:33 AM »
Thanks for the Wiki link OP.

My contact with Black Bears has been limited.  The ones I have encountered other than at Yellowstone in the old days have wanted nothing to do with me nor I with them.  They beat feet to get away from the smelly human.

I have a memory of posting this before but neither when nor where comes to mind.  Thirty years back hunting Turkey in the Spring on public land I ran into a rather excited man at the parking area of a trail head down in southern Colorado.  He was out of breath, a bit disheveled in appearance, and kept looking over his shoulder up the trail.  In between raspy breaths he said he was sitting at the base of a tree when a Black Bear came along the trail.  He first saw it some distance away and when it was about a hundred yards or so from him he stood up and yelled at it so it would know he was there and go away.  It came directly towards him and in his moment of panic he climbed the tree to get out of the bear's way.  That was the first "duh?"  His second one was when he left his shotgun on the ground at the base of the tree.  That was the second "duh?"  Sometimes dumb people are rewarded with positive outcomes as the bear came snarling and huffing up and promptly climbed a tree next to the one he was in.  He got out of his tree and ran to the parking lot about a mile and a half away.  My memory is fuzzy on this but I believe he left his shotgun up at the site of the encounter and was looking for the courage to go get it, or someone like me to go with him. 
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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2017, 12:05:03 PM »
Thanks for the Wiki link OP.

My contact with Black Bears has been limited.  The ones I have encountered other than at Yellowstone in the old days have wanted nothing to do with me nor I with them.  They beat feet to get away from the smelly human.

I have a memory of posting this before but neither when nor where comes to mind.  Thirty years back hunting Turkey in the Spring on public land I ran into a rather excited man at the parking area of a trail head down in southern Colorado.  He was out of breath, a bit disheveled in appearance, and kept looking over his shoulder up the trail.  In between raspy breaths he said he was sitting at the base of a tree when a Black Bear came along the trail.  He first saw it some distance away and when it was about a hundred yards or so from him he stood up and yelled at it so it would know he was there and go away.  It came directly towards him and in his moment of panic he climbed the tree to get out of the bear's way.  That was the first "duh?"  His second one was when he left his shotgun on the ground at the base of the tree.  That was the second "duh?"  Sometimes dumb people are rewarded with positive outcomes as the bear came snarling and huffing up and promptly climbed a tree next to the one he was in.  He got out of his tree and ran to the parking lot about a mile and a half away.  My memory is fuzzy on this but I believe he left his shotgun up at the site of the encounter and was looking for the courage to go get it, or someone like me to go with him.
I saw a video somewhere awhile back of a black bear climbing the tree where a bow hunter had his tree stand. When the bear got up to the platform, the guy kicked it in the nose!  The bear looked at him like, "Oh, sorry! I didn't know this tree was occupied!" and scurried back down.

The guy in you story reminds me of how some people react to spiders, too.
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Online wsdstan

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2017, 01:01:30 PM »
I saw that video also.  Kind of funny.
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Offline Quenchcrack

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2017, 02:51:48 PM »
That's an old joke and still amusing, BUT it's bass-ackwards, as far as factual information goes.  A grizz will seldom eat a human, they just attack to destroy a threat and then go their merry way.  Black bears and Polar bears, on the other hand, WILL attack and EAT a human with relish. :drool:

And where do the bears buy the relish?  Mustard or sweet?
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Offline upnorth

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Re: North Idaho bear attacks
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2017, 04:11:10 PM »
I saw that video also.  Kind of funny.

I think that I saw the same myself. Man those things can really change gears when they run.
 
I guess that I just don't have the guts or stones that some of you others have. My wife and I wouldn't trust one of these things even on a good day. Although a 12 full of slugs would go a long way to appease the soul. But to be honest, any blackie that I saw in the north took off like Satan was chasing it with a burning pitch fork.