Forest closures

[boomer]

The SW has been on fire again this year. Air quality was bad enough for a month that daily advisories became routine. Now the seasonal rains have finally doused the fires but flash flooding is happening again. This has become our consistent pattern. Meanwhile the drought conditions continue. Kind of ironic.

The national forests in my area remain closed as they have been since May. No mountain fishing. No camping. No hiking. No nothing. Remediation work related to fire suppression efforts only.

Temps at my elevation in the high desert routinely hit 100F or better each day which is above previous normals but it's the desert so there's that. Fortunately, I'm in the sticks so bushcrafting stuff is still possible. Without fires, of course. It'd be nice to head up to the high country like we used to but those days have been fewer with each summer. Understand I'm comparatively fortunate and a lot of folks have it much worse. Appreciate what i have for sure.

We're in the New Normal stage of things now. While it is very obviously changed it remains tolerable. At least for now. Predictably, some people continue to deny reality or human contributions to the problems but that will likely be changing soon enough. Reality tends to work that way

Our interesting times are about to become a lot more so. It's a shame because it didn't have to go this way but here we are. Just griping because I miss playing in the high country.

Anyway that's the Southern Rockies situation. Hope others fare better.

[Moe M.]

The SW has been on fire again this year. Air quality was bad enough for a month that daily advisories became routine. Now the seasonal rains have finally doused the fires but flash flooding is happening again. This has become our consistent pattern. Meanwhile the drought conditions continue. Kind of ironic.

The national forests in my area remain closed as they have been since May. No mountain fishing. No camping. No hiking. No nothing. Remediation work related to fire suppression efforts only.

Temps at my elevation in the high desert routinely hit 100F or better each day which is above previous normals but it's the desert so there's that. Fortunately, I'm in the sticks so bushcrafting stuff is still possible. Without fires, of course. It'd be nice to head up to the high country like we used to but those days have been fewer with each summer. Understand I'm comparatively fortunate and a lot of folks have it much worse. Appreciate what i have for sure.

We're in the New Normal stage of things now. While it is very obviously changed it remains tolerable. At least for now. Predictably, some people continue to deny reality or human contributions to the problems but that will likely be changing soon enough. Reality tends to work that way

Our interesting times are about to become a lot more so. It's a shame because it didn't have to go this way but here we are. Just griping because I miss playing in the high country.

Anyway that's the Southern Rockies situation. Hope others fare better.

 Rep. Cortez, The Squad, Joe Biden, John Kerry, the UN, the entire Communist Chinese Industrial Complex, and Al Gore all agree with this message and thank you for your sacrifice and loyalty to the New World Green Energy movement.   

 On a more personal note, I am truly sorry for your hardships, if I could send you some of our excellent New England weather, I would only be too happy to do so, we did start the spring with an overedge of rain and some higher than normal wind conditions but it cleared up about mid April, since then we've had average rainfall, mostly wonderful days, and the daytime temps have been very moderate (generally in the high 70's to mid 80's with fairly low humidity) and pleasant, great for cookouts and pool parties, the gardens are doing well also.   

[boomer]

Thank you Moe. Good to hear things are going well in the NE for you and yours.

I will admit I have no idea what the first paragraph means or where it comes from. Seems like a non sequitur.
I get the US politicians listed may not be favorites but since a number of European countries are currently in the same boat I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Or what it even means.

As far as global Climate problems go the scientific consensus is pretty clear. Modeling based on data is pretty accurate although rate of change is increasing. And the effects in the SW are readily observable. Maybe your area is doing better but weather is local and climate is global

Anyhow, it's good things are going well in your area. Enjoy.
 

[Moe M.]

Thank you Moe. Good to hear things are going well in the NE for you and yours.

I will admit I have no idea what the first paragraph means or where it comes from. Seems like a non sequitur.
I get the US politicians listed may not be favorites but since a number of European countries are currently in the same boat I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Or what it even means.

As far as global Climate problems go the scientific consensus is pretty clear. Modeling based on data is pretty accurate although rate of change is increasing. And the effects in the SW are readily observable. Maybe your area is doing better but weather is local and climate is global

Anyhow, it's good things are going well in your area. Enjoy.

 Thank you Boomer, 

  LOL, you may have hit on at least part of the problem, some folks here want us to become more Europeanized, I guess they can't make the correlation between Europe's never ending troubles and their socialist political and social engineering policies, which is why we are always having to bail them out in one form or another.
 Just how much money do scientist believe that we have to throw at Global Warming/Climate Change to make the problem go away, or do they believe that taxing the $hitt out of people or that making their energy cost so unaffordable that it will force them to give up their lives as they've known it.
 Do they think that people are so stupid that they don't know that wind and solar as it stands today can't supply the energy needs of the worlds population no matter how much it costs, so, from where I sit the left (including green leaning scientist) are telling me that huge sums of money paid to god only knows will clean up the pollutants that are causing the changes to the global climate, or they're telling me if I don't drive a battery operated vehicle, heat my home and generate my electricity with wind mills and solar panels, quit eating meat and start living on plant life and bugs I run the risk of either drowning on elevating sea levels, or choaking to death on toxins and pollutants in the air, or being poisoned by bad water.
 IMHO what's much more scary than those predictions is the fact that people actually believe that crap, if the world and civilization is doomed because of changes to our environment, so be it, nothing lasts forever, and all the henny penny handwringing in the world is going to change that.
 But maybe I'm wrong, I have been a time or two in my life, maybe you and your ilk are right, so tell us, What will it take in economic resources or human sacrifice to save the world, try to be specific.

[Moe M.]

Thank you Moe. Good to hear things are going well in the NE for you and yours.

I will admit I have no idea what the first paragraph means or where it comes from. Seems like a non sequitur.
I get the US politicians listed may not be favorites but since a number of European countries are currently in the same boat I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Or what it even means.

  Thank you again Boomer, 

 You too quickly admit to not knowing much about anything that's going on around you that threatens the collective narrative, the reason it might seem like a non sequitur could very well be because of your tendency to refuse to entertain any information or theory that is different from that which you have adopted.
 And BTW, in my opinion you're a pretty bright fellow, quite learned and traveled from the sound of your posts, so I don't buy your story of not understanding the first paragraph of my reply that you quoted above, nor do most others who follow these threads, you don't seem to have any problem making statements or quoting facts as you interpret them, but you intentionally side step any questions that require you to defend your positions on environmental or social issues, could it be that they are too difficult to easily defend ?
 In any event, perhaps you ought to investigate privately the other side of the GW/CC story, a good place to start might be with the book Debunking the Myth of Human Made Climate Change by Michael J. Cole, it's an easy read and makes some interesting points.

 I'm not trying to turn this into a debate, I'm just trying to understand your method of reasoning using a little common sense, but you don't make it easy. 

[boomer]

Thank you Moe. There's a lot to consider in that response. I'm neither climate scientist nor economist. As far as science goes I look to peer reviewed studies and reliable, reproducible evidence. Economics, beyond a few simple concepts is far too distorted by political dogma to address.

I'm sure you and I recall the photos from around the globe from the general Covid lockdown period. The dramatic differences in air and water quality were certainly memorable. Those photos alone clearly showed the extent of human contribution to climate problems. By now we all know the stories of glaciers melting, pollinators declining, extreme heat waves and all the rest. We can see it happening in real time. The effects of climate changes are especially noticeable in the SW which is already desert.

Some argue "climate always changes" which is true. But like a lot of things the rate of change and proximate causes matter. The issue today is the human contributions to increasing climate change. And that, hopefully, understood by by even the most reluctant or intransigent.

Our biosphere is essentially a closed system powered by our star. The water we have today is the same water we had yesterday or a thousand or a million years ago, for example. Human technological abilities are unique and have allowed us to affect the biosphere, sometimes radically. That's who we are.

That we need to do things differently today is obvious. What we need to do is also obvious. How we go about it is the big question. Part of that big question is not only how much it might cost to make necessary changes but how much it will cost not to make them.

A person comes into the ER with signs and symptoms of a heart attack, we can say science indicates they are experiencing a heart attack and list their available options- treatment or no. They  get to decide even if the outcome on the one hand is obvious while the alternative is not guaranteed. That's their right but it's not their right to make that decision for others or groups of others or future generations.

Some citizens may not want change but prefer instead a nostalgic view of earlier times and more robust adventures but change occurs regardless. Change is after all "the only constant".

Climate scientists don't set the price of fuel, design transport systems or decree personal consumption patterns. They do climate science and present the results.

I'm not sure who or what my "ilk" is understood to be. I do understand, however, the inherent responsibility to try to leave the world a better place for my kids and grandkids and all those who follow. It is both a duty and privilege we all share. It is one I take seriously

Best wishes to you and yours.

[boomer]

Thank you Moe.

At your suggestion I looked up the book suggested and the author. Based on the precis and author's published bio i have decided to stick with current research results by climate scientists published in peer reviewed sources which represents a 99% consensus among professionals.

The argument that "facts are wrong and they are being misrepresented" is not one I have found compelling whether the subject is flat earth, public health or climate issues. But that's just me.

Others are certainly entitled to their opinions and rightly so. In these uncertain times differetiating fact and opinion can be trying yet remains essential.

Addendum:  No, I don't know what the labels you ascribe mean aside from the fact I assume they are not compliments. I understand some of the labels apparently mean something different than commonly understood but that's about it. Of course, that's likely another discussion

[Mad-max]

Good Lord guys.  Get a room. 
Lol.  I really shouldn't tease about being polite..
We're into our rain for a day or two.  Hot and muggy for a few.
The word from the out of staters about campgrounds is they are either full or "take out a second mortgage.  I guess if your traveling in one of those plush house on wheels it doesn't matter.  Go inside and crank the thermostat down. 
We just don't camp in the summer down here.  And I waiting for surgery so traveling to the mountains is gonna be delayed.
The chantrel mushrooms should be popping but just little teeny ones are the only ones.
When we were traveling the west each years we got edjumucated on it's fragility.
Here in FL if you take the time and effort to find those old bone yards it's sobering to see all the "died in fire" gravestones.  It's no joke.  Careful out there.

[Moe M.]

 Thank you Boomer, that was a very thoughtful and well written reply, but again you failed to answer my question in any regard, and especially in any specific sense.
 As far as labels go, I haven't labeled you, at least not intentionally, my statement that AOC, Pelosi, Schumer, and Biden must thank you for your loyalty wasn't meant as a slur, I only pointed to the suggestion that you associate more with the New Green Deal politicos on the left, which it appears you do.
 I would remind you that ever since the new administration moved into the WH and took the reins of congress this country that we all profess to love is falling apart not in small pieces, but in large chunks, their open boarders policies are fueling the greatest influx of illegal and fatal drugs ever to come into this country along with a greater degree of violence than ever before, especially along our southern and western borders, and I believe it's intentional, otherwise the powers that be would take some action to at least slow it down such as was the policies of the previous administration.
 Economically, Americans, especially the poor and working class can no longer afford to live, wild government spending on social programs and leftist causes have not only tripled the national debt, but has put us on a head long spiral to what economist are calling the greatest recession this country has ever faced, one that my very well mimic the Great Depressions of the late 1920's and early 1930's, and one which at this time in our history we may not be able to recover from.
 I read a piece on the effects that these policies are having on many if not most working class families, the average working class family who rents or owns their own home, has two children, and both parents working makes an average combined income of $1400.00 a week take home, as of 2020 they were able to live a pretty normal life style and pay the bills, the average worker today commutes about 65 miles a day both ways for work, and with shopping, banking, and driving the kids to after school activities the milage can be rounded off to about 865 miles a week combined.
 The average automobile today gets about 25 MPG which equates to about 35 gals of gas for the average family, before the gas prices were driven up and before this Green New Deal administration's attack on the oil and coal industry gas was about $2.29 per gallon it was costing them about $80.00 a week to fuel their cars, today the average price of gas is a bit over $5.40 per gallon, so today that average family is shelling out about $180.00 for gas.
 But it doesn't stop there, if you heat your home with oil, gas, or electricity your utility costs have nearly doubled, I use home heating oil, an average fill up is about 200 gals., last year when we were energy independent I was paying about $2.40 a gal. or about $480.00 per fill, today the price is at $5.40 per, a fill today for the same 200 gals. is $1080.00 dollars, we are retired on a small fixed income, do we freeze this winter, or loose or home and take up residence under the proverbial bridge.
 Now lets talk about inflation in relation to that same working class couple trying to feed their kids on the same $130.00 a week grocery bill that's now $200.00, that's $315.00 a month increase combined with the $440.00 increase in gas, combined with the added increase in their utility bills and that family either needs to get a third job or start looking for a bridge in a nice neighborhood.
 There's more, but this is enough, most or all of these increases are attributable to the failed policies of a radical bunch of socialist with their heads stuck in some unrealistic socialist agenda and based in good part on forcing a world not yet ready into an unsustainable green energy nightmare, and Global Warming/Climate Change is the vehicle your associates are using, and you want me to climb on board and trust the very science that supports that nightmare.
 It's true, scientist are not economist, they are not social engineers, nor are they trained in family planning or designing cars, they sit in labs and make models with which they can predict climate changes, and sometimes when those models don't match the wanted results or if they threaten the research in some way it's far easier for the scientist to skew the models than to publish the truthful results, which they have done numerous times in the past, have been caught at it, and confessed to doing it.
 Sorry Boomer, I have a lifetime of life experience behind me on which to draw my opinions on, and my gut tells me that this is one group of scientist, politicians, and corporatist that I don't want to trust with my kids futures or invest my time or money in.   

 I know I've gone pretty long on this reply, but I do tend to get carried away at times, but please, take a stab at answering my question with a direct and specific answer, seriously, stop beating around the bush, what is it that The People need to do, what changes, what sacrifices if any do we the people have to make to alter, slow, or stop climate change, and what type of infrastructure can the government of science provide at any price that will save this planet from sure destruction from the effects of Global Warming or Climate change.
 Surely you must have a clue, or are you just taking "their" word for it ?

[Moe M.]

Good Lord guys.  Get a room. 
Lol.  I really shouldn't tease about being polite..
We're into our rain for a day or two.  Hot and muggy for a few.
The word from the out of staters about campgrounds is they are either full or "take out a second mortgage.  I guess if your traveling in one of those plush house on wheels it doesn't matter.  Go inside and crank the thermostat down. 
We just don't camp in the summer down here.  And I waiting for surgery so traveling to the mountains is gonna be delayed.
The chantrel mushrooms should be popping but just little teeny ones are the only ones.
When we were traveling the west each years we got edjumucated on it's fragility.
Here in FL if you take the time and effort to find those old bone yards it's sobering to see all the "died in fire" gravestones.  It's no joke.  Careful out there.

  LOL, Thank you Tony.

  Yes, I know, being this polite is a slight departure from the norm for me, but hey, if that's what it takes to get through to Boomer, I'll do it.
  But I have to admit that it's becoming a chore just to get him to answer one simple question, what's the game plan, show me the map, tell me what's expected of me in a real way, and what specifically can society do as a whole to contribute to stop the Global Warming/Climate Change advance.
 And the billions being collected in carbon taxes, what's it being used on that is helping in the fight, you would think that some of it could go to helping those underdeveloped or developing countries that are getting a free pass to pollute as much as they want to get them on line with the program ?
 I guess I'm rambling again, Good Luck with your surgery my friend.   

[boomer]

 Thank you Moe.

Before there can be any substantive discussion on the problems we face there has to be an agreement that human contributions to climate problems are fact based and real. That Anthropogenic Climate Disruption (ACD), well documented in valid studies and represented in scientific consensus,  is the sine qua non for any discussion.  Unfortunately, the contention that climate scientists are eager to cook the books in order to fix the game ignores reality and only leads to an obvious dead end. Especially as specific suggestions offered in the past were repeatedly ignored.

I'll accept your math at face value on the problems facing the working class. We all understand there are big problems. Any discussion of possible solutions in this area that, for instance, ignores stagnant real wages over decades with massive tax cuts for a small segment of the citizenry at the same time is, again, a denial of reality.

Far too often citizens seek out venues that support pre existing opinions. We all editorialize to some extent but facts matter regardless. Yet even with the recent failed coup attempt and associated insurrection citizens who style themselves as "patriotic" seem to have a hard time dealing with reality. Just a sign of our times, I suppose.

By the way, the Green New Deal (GND) is a proposal, it is not policy, it is not legislation. The GND has no appreciable effect to date. But it does acknowledge ACD and it does offer solutions.

Have you read it?

[windy]

My forest here has been closed by Mother Nature--blowdowns and rock falls.  The USFS won't reopen the roads until they have a timber sale or a forest fire--got too many wingtips to finance, and not enough boots on the ground.  I can only open the ones my little chainsaw can cut through or my No.2 shovel can scrape clean.  Dangit!  I'm vested!  These woods are mine!  I've been paying for 'em in installments every April 15th for 62 years now!  I'm too dang old and wore out to backpack in and enjoy 'em thattaway.  At least we got enough rain this spring to fill up the creeks, and the weather hasn't been the furnace we've had the past 5 years, so there's a chance we won't get the fires that are causing y'all grief, but the grouse and the blacktails are gonna hafta find another source of humor to replace my antics.
windy

[boomer]

Know the feeling Windy. I'm usually up in the high country camping this time of year. Some fishing, some napping and some messing around in a general bushcraft way. Not for a while now though. And when I did go things looked very different from not too long ago.

Im glad my kids got to see what it was when growing up but not so glad at what it is quickly becoming.

[Moe M.]

Thank you Moe.

Before there can be any substantive discussion on the problems we face there has to be an agreement that human contributions to climate problems are fact based and real. That Anthropogenic Climate Disruption (ACD), well documented in valid studies and represented in scientific consensus,  is the sine qua non for any discussion.  Unfortunately, the contention that climate scientists are eager to cook the books in order to fix the game ignores reality and only leads to an obvious dead end. Especially as specific suggestions offered in the past were repeatedly ignored.

I'll accept your math at face value on the problems facing the working class. We all understand there are big problems. Any discussion of possible solutions in this area that, for instance, ignores stagnant real wages over decades with massive tax cuts for a small segment of the citizenry at the same time is, again, a denial of reality.

Far too often citizens seek out venues that support pre existing opinions. We all editorialize to some extent but facts matter regardless. Yet even with the recent failed coup attempt and associated insurrection citizens who style themselves as "patriotic" seem to have a hard time dealing with reality. Just a sign of our times, I suppose.

By the way, the Green New Deal (GND) is a proposal, it is not policy, it is not legislation. The GND has no appreciable effect to date. But it does acknowledge ACD and it does offer solutions.

Have you read it?

 Thank you Boomer. 

  Well here we go around that same bush again, I really don't like to keep equating these issues to either left or right problems, but that's what it boils down to, anytime a collectivist (I'm trying to get away from the liberal, progressive, socialist terminology) is asked a specific question about anything ideological the best they can muster is another trip around the bush or at best a very unspecific noncommittal reply, but for the sake of this discussion lets keep it more personal.
  You believe that scientist around the globe have consensus about the causes of GW/CC and that in large part they include the negative contributions made by man at least since the start of the industrial age in the 19th century, yet somewhere in my education I was told that consensus means that agreement has been reached by everyone in a group, or at least most participants have come to agreement, I don't see those numbers anywhere near a consensus in the scientific community, maybe a bit over half at best, which means a lot more research and discussion is needed before a consensus can be reached.
   We (those of my Ilk) ask "what specifically can society do to correct the problems caused by man's actions that are a contributing factor with the worsening of GW/Climate Change, and the answer we get is anything but specific, your answer for instance boils down to we can't discuss that until I make a commitment to do what it takes without question, that sounds allot like "You will do it, and you will like it, Or Else".
   Surely the scientist and the powers that be within the Climate Change community are intelligent and if they are sure enough about the problem to have reached "consensus", they should at least have enough of a clue to make suggestions that are specific and tangible enough to be a start, one would think, what for example would your reaction be if I said to you "This is dire, you have to trust me, so sign over everything you own including your power of attorney in all matters" and everything will be alright, wouldn't you be at least a bit skeptical ?   
   What insurrection, what failed coup, there was none, what we are expected to believe is that a bunch of self styled "Patriots" invaded the capital in a violent bid to overthrow the government, but in reality the peaceful protestors were invited into the capital by the capital police and once inside they were put upon by federal police including federal marshals, FBI, and thugs from the DHS, and one unarmed young woman (a decorated military vet) was actually shot for no reason at all except to gain entry to hallway.
  And now the same people who organized the debacle are using it to further their socialist agenda, innocent people have been arrested without warrants or charges being leveled at them, held in prison, some for months, not allowed to see or speak to a lawyer, and a few have been sentenced to long prison terms without benefit of a trial or the ability for a defense, all against their Constitutional protections.
  The Constitution guarantees Equal Protection under the Law, yet the peaceful protesters that turned violent, burned down cities, killed police officers, and looted businesses for the past two years are given a pass (because they serve the new radical socialist agenda in this country, perhaps you hadn't noticed or maybe you don't get the national news, but if you're a leftist or support their policies you get a free pass to do anything criminal, but if you are a conservative and believe in the Constitution you go to prison or you are crushed financially.
  BTW, you're right, the Green New Deal is not law, it is a proposal, one that has been in effect since the new administration took power, it has crushed the oil industry, used billions of American tax dollars to support and subsidize China's industrial complex that builds and markets solar systems and wind turbines for sale here in the USA, it also increased the EPA regulations on the domestic automobile industry to make it harder to compete in the market and increase auto prices while dumping huge sums of tax money into electric cars making them more affordable individually, but costing Americans billions in taxes.
 If you think Climate Change is an issue, wait until all those huge expired car and light truck batteries start piling up and leaking toxins into our environment, as of this writing there is no plan in force to deal with that problem.

 Boomer, do you think that all of the above and tragic state of our country and in much of the rest of the world is just bad luck or happenstance, really ?
 I'm not looking for an answer this time for I know through experience that you don't have one, I'm just hoping that at some point a light will go on in your head and you will begin to ask the same questions for yourself.

[boomer]

Well Moe, that was one of the more interesting comments in a while.

I'm not sure why you're so intent on arguing an issue you claim doesn't exist.

The consensus around human contributions to climate problems is 99% within the scientific community according to peer reviewed publications.  Given that fact in combination with the environmental destruction I have witnessed in the SW, I'm going to go with "It's real".  I love my part of the country.  It's  saddening to witness what's going on today.

This is not the first time the topic of climate has come up, for sure. Yet on previous occasions when numerous specific possible responses have been offered they have been ignored. There's neither need not time to list the suggestions and rationale again. Simply checking the records here should put the notion of avoidance to rest.

The remarks introduced concerning the insurrection and failed coup attempt however are puzzling. Characterizing what was recorded in real time and broadcast nationwide in the manner you chose stretches any limit of credibility beyond the point where rational discussion can be attempted. Ashli Babbit''s shooting was also filmed in real time.  The Air Force veteran was not acting as described. Perhaps you have not watched any of the videos at the time or since?

All of the hundreds of people arrested and charged with crimes so far have received bail hearings, have access to legal council and many have already pled out. Not suggesting our legal system is foolproof or evenly administered but things are not as you have claimed.  Questions of what constitutes a patriot aside, the documentary evidence does not support in any way the description of events offered.

The claim of many "cities burning" recently is not one supported by any evidence. Parts of large cities  have indeed been torched in the past but in the last few years that has not been the case.

And here we come to the issue. We both appear to agree things are amiss in our nation - in a lot of areas. In order to find ways to address both cause and effect in an  attempt to come up with solutions it is necessary to accept realty as it is and not as we wish it was.

In this case, we have big problems with climate and the insurrection that was part of a failed coup attempt. We can argue of the reasons, the origins and possible solutions. That's our responsibility as citizens.

Arguing opinions unrelated to reality is not only futile it is irresponsible and childish.

Wishing you and yours well.

 

[Moe M.]

 Well Boomer (to lighten up the conversation a bit), "I think what we have here is a failure to communicate"   

 First off, I never stated that I believed Climate Change didn't exist, one would have to be void of the ability to recognize the unavoidable signs of changes in local weather and of weather patterns across the globe, I have however argued against the Global Warming theory, history and science both agree that the earths temps rising and falling have been within normal ranges, Glacial ice being lost in some areas of the poles is also normal as new masses of ice are replacing the loss in other areas, Polar Bears and Seals are not endangered as the GW activist claim, the fact is that Polar Bear numbers are actually rising steadily over the last hundred years of such records being kept.
 What I don't believe are the claims that Man's actions over time and especially over the last hundred years have caused the world we live in to be in danger of destruction or of erasing most life on earth, that it's possible to make man extinct through environmental changes or from a pandemic is not out of the question, but not from the use of fossil fuels, automobiles, cook outs, or cow farts, the earth has been subjected to much worse than our piddly human abuse over it's millions if not billions of years without us, and yet it's managed quite well on it's own.
 We have abused or environment in the past through greed and ignorance, unregulated manufacturing and the use of chemicals in agriculture and such did poison our waters and pollute our air, but we've come a long way in cleaning up our environment and doing away with those toxins, just in my lifetime, now I can fish waters that I couldn't when I was a kid, and the smog from billowing smoke stacks from the mills is no more, not in this country anyway.
 Climate change is normal, throughout history this rock we live on has experienced all sorts of changes, fire, floods, volcano's, heat, and ice ages, species have been lost and new ones have been born and have adapted to the environmental changes that killed off the previous, that's life, that's change, it's unavoidable, and as intellectually advanced as we think we are and as arrogant as we act, we are not God, while we are able to control some aspects of our lives, controlling the weather and the environmental changes created by nature is not one of them.
 As far as Cities being burned, looted, and otherwise subjected to violence, I don't know where you've been hiding, but it's going on even today in certain leftist run enclaves in this country, violence is rampant in most of the leftist run cities in the country, scores of innocent civilians and gangbangers are killed and injured just in Chicago every week, while leftist politicians, prosecutors, and judges do nothing to combat it and the lame stream media works hard to ignore it.
 Just this week an attempt was made on the life of an elected official and the act was caught on tape, the assailant was arrested at the scene, and promptly set free without bail, by leftist laws that promote and encourage lawlessness, and you are blind to this ?
 Your insurrection does not exist, it's a narrative that was organized, supported, and now is being used politically to punish those Americans who stand up for Constitutional government and who don't agree with the radical socializing of this country, but if there is an insurrection starting it is only to return this country to what made it great to begin with, it's citizens.   
 But again, you are right about arguing opinions unrelated to facts being futile, irresponsible, and childish, enjoy your Kool Aid my friend, I'm giving my part in this discussion a rest, arguing with someone such as yourself who is clearly adverse to exploring the reality around him is, to use your words, futile, irresponsible, childish, and I will add unproductive and aggravating.   

[boomer]

Thank you Moe

Our discussion seems like two guys going to a baseball game and then after the game one of them starts claiming it was really a pool tournament because there were sticks and balls and the playing field was green and ... But even if it wasn't a pool tournament the side with the  highest score didn't win because ...  But even if the highest score did win it was all made up ... But even it wasn't made up it was still a pool tournament  ...

I understand the are citizens among us who do not believe in democracy and may even try  to wrangle the Constitution in ways to limit or even deny democratic participation by all citizens in our Republic. I'm not among that group.

I go to a baseball game, I go to see baseball.

I like to shoot pool too.

And I know the difference.

Anyway, it's good you're taking a break. Trust you'll have a good time.

[Moe M.]