Blades and Bushlore

General Discussion => Food and Cooking => Topic started by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 10:02:18 AM

Title: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 10:02:18 AM
This subject has 'cropped up' 8) several times in different threads lately.  Since most of it is food related, I thought it might be a subject that warrants discussion among the members of the forum.  What prompted me to bring it to light was this article from today's issue of the OMAHA WORLD HERALD.....and the fact that I have been a farmer all of my life and have wrestled with the issues surrounding their use myself.  I look forward to a civil discussion. O:-)

http://www.omaha.com/money/with-new-m-nebraska-facility-and-unl-s-input-bayer/article_dd5185ed-267a-5811-b3f2-db279c10e7e6.html?mode=jqm
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on May 14, 2015, 10:21:33 AM
Folks don't seem to mind science making them live longer and healthier. I figure science can probably help our food too. As a kid when we were in the cow business my father enjoyed the benefits of modern science practices. I know there are many facets to the principles for agricultural applications, and many opinions too. I also remember the opinion of my grandmother quite well... "you don't fool with Mother Nature". Should be an interesting discussion.

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: madmax on May 14, 2015, 10:38:18 AM
My brother works for a company affiliated with Monsanto.  Defends them to the end.  I put so much crap into my body GMO corn doesn't bother me one bit.  But this isn't really about the health aspect.  It's about control and money.  Monopoly of our food.  Pricing. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Wilderbeast on May 14, 2015, 10:51:37 AM
My brother works for a company affiliated with Monsanto.  Defends them to the end.  I put so much crap into my body GMO corn doesn't bother me one bit.  But this isn't really about the health aspect.  It's about control and money.  Monopoly of our food.  Pricing.

Yup,  and stepping on the necks of small farmers who don't want to submit to them.

And dead monarch butterflies don't make it more attractive to me. 

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on May 14, 2015, 11:12:01 AM
I wish I could keep it civil, but there is too much wrong with current food production/control... to keep it civil, so I shall bow out my o'le farmer friend  :cheers:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 11:34:56 AM
I followed one of the links in a previous thread Wolfy. When I went to read one of the scientific papers they wanted $36. I didn't read it. What was available seemed to be aimed at 8yr old reading comprehension with too much oversimplification leading to fantastic leaps in logic.

If these powerful multi-national corporations were guided by the same moral compass that the average good person follows then there would not be so much need for concern.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: WoodsWoman on May 14, 2015, 12:03:29 PM
I'm going to bow out with Zammer.  My frustration with this topic gets me riled up too fast.
.
WW.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 14, 2015, 12:29:26 PM
While one may not like Monsanto's business model regarding seeds, harvests, and control don't ignore the good things that company has done with yields and characteristics. 

There appears to be a hysteria about GMO crops that is unfounded by the scientific data.   
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: MnSportsman on May 14, 2015, 12:48:29 PM
I'm going to bow out with Zammer.  My frustration with this topic gets me riled up too fast.
.
WW.


  I am against GMO. I am for honey bees.  That is all I can say, without getting stirred up also.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 12:50:04 PM
I don't think you folks should bow out. I believe there is enough maturity, kinship, and goodwill here for disagreement and serious discussion even if one gets riled up about it. If nothing else you can offer the sources for your opinions and let others come to their own individual conclusions.

Stan can you cite some of this evidence? Science is malleable to some extent, just as statistics can be manipulated to suit one's expectations or goals.

I suppose I am not especially sure what to believe from either side. If it is true that the pollen from GMO corn(or any other form of gene leakage) can "infect" my heirloom varieties and permanently alter my seeds I find that to be especially disturbing by slowly, eventually eroding my choice in the matter.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 14, 2015, 03:08:03 PM
Unknown I don't have the inclination to drag all the material I have read and report on the meetings I have attended listening to the agri-scientists discuss the pro's and con's of GMO crops. 

If the material supports the safety of the GMO crop the anti-GMO people scream that the data is supplied by the industry and it is faulty.  If the anti-GMO crowd says its unsafe they have a hard time coming up with data to support their allegations.
Sometimes I think it would be best to go back to the non-GMO crops and let the reduced disease resistance and reduced yields result in the world starving until we get to a healthy world population.  It is somewhat like discussing politics and religion.  I have an opinion, some have a different opinion and the two are not going to mesh.

Type "why GMO crops are safe" on a search engine.  You will get both sides and then some of the arguments.  It is truly a mess.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 03:12:17 PM
Sorry if you feel like I put you on the spot, that was no my intention, but it did occur to me later that it might get taken that way.

I have done a little research on my own and like you say it is a mess.

I have a hard time trusting the data when it is known that research that does not please is not permitted to be published or peer reviewed.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: SIXFOOTER on May 14, 2015, 04:09:29 PM
I do not have a problem with the concept of GMO food production, it makes perfect sense to me. Why not make the food more resistant to bugs, mold, weather? I don't even have a problem with the primary motivation for the big companies is Money, of course it is, that the only reason most of us go to work, so that's ok too.
The problems I do see however, are secrecy, shortcuts, no transparency, inadequate pier review and control.
How the hell do you keep the genetic material from a GMO facility from jumping the fence to the neighbor guy trying to raise Non GMO Herritage tomatoes? How do I know that there is not something in the GMO lines killing off the bees and thereby killing off everyone els's stuff?
I already know the Gluetin the the largest portion of wheat in this country is contributing to peoples gluetin intolerance, no one had that 40 years ago and no one was raising the wheat that they are now 40 years ago. How do I know that the GMO genes that they are using are not going to jump the fence in me? I don't want to start making grasshopper noises, croak like a frog or any of the mostly made up stuff that people are afraid of. Think Jurasic Park, they used DNA from amphibians (RHANA) for fill in in the missing strands, it made some of the supposedly all female critter population turn male and thereby bypass the non breeding safegards they put in.
HFCS, we already know that stuff causes problems in some people, what is it going to be doing 20 years down the road? Messing with everybody?

Like I said, the concept is great, but I do not trust our govt agencies funded by the entities that they are supposed to be there to keep an eye on to have My best interests in mind. Monsanto has a Long history of operating like douchbags despite all the good they have done over the years
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 14, 2015, 04:23:11 PM
 I am not a farmer, not even a particularly accomplished gardener. On the other hand, as a self proclaimed good cook I like to eat and I want to know what I'm eating, especially since I once taught classes on diet and nutrition in clinical and community settings.

First impression with the article was "Well, farmers have been doing this stuff since they started selecting the best seeds for the next planting cycle". A little research on the Bayer site however, and it turns out seed selection" also includes and may primarily refer to GMO technologies.

Personally, I'm wary of GMOs for three reasons:

1. Genetic manipulations across species is marching into the unknown, unarmed and unprepared, at least in terms of altering the food supply on the scale and at the rates we are currently. Natural selection and informed selective breeding are not what is going on yet we don't seem to consider it wise to tread carefully. Something about fooling Mother Nature and all.

2. The question of whether business can/should be allowed to patent life is not one to simply be decided by the courts and although related to my initial concern may be harder to deal with. The business practices of Monsanto (admittedly, not Bayer in the article) show just how this can go when damages are assessed for a farmer not controlling which way the wind blows.

3. The tremendous amounts of money, time and energy invested in avoiding disclosure of GMO ingredients in foods is a pretty big red flag, for me anyway. The kind of tactics that lend some credence to our neighbors across the pond keeping the door closed to GMOs, for sure.

Sometimes it is hard to find the fire for all the smoke.












Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Draco on May 14, 2015, 04:38:20 PM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.   
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 14, 2015, 04:48:00 PM
Monsanto has taken bullying and corruption to a new level. They control the regulation of GMO's using back door tactics, their employees go to work for the FDA and they hire government workers. Definitely do not trust the cross-species thing. I believe Monsanto and AMD both really do have an interest in feeding the world through controlling the food supply of the world. I guess I am a conspiracy troglodyte nut case
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 05:15:55 PM
MONSANTO  >:D or  O:-)............ :shrug:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-trust-monsanto-with-our-food/

http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/monsantos-good-bad-pr-problem/

                                                                     


Nice discussion, so far, folks......I KNEW WE COULD DO IT! :hail:

                                                                     
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 05:33:17 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-seed-companies-control-gm-crop-research/
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 14, 2015, 05:43:51 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-trust-monsanto-with-our-food/

Not buying it. Me thinks she has an agenda
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 06:28:36 PM
Everyone has an 'agenda.'   The railroads, the pharmaceutical industry, the oil companies, the various agricultural-related companies and on and on and on, ad infinitum.....they are the ones that are elected to office and run our government.  Money talks AND walks.  I do NOT want this thread to take that turn because if it does it will get locked.....I GUARANTEE IT!

Let's keep the discussion related to what I asked in the original post in the thread.  What are the relative merits or demerits of GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS & BIOTECH FOODS in your opinion and how did you arrive at that opinion? 

Thank you all for your posts......I find them very interesting.  :popcorn: :cheers:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on May 14, 2015, 06:38:47 PM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.

I am of the same mind on this. If you can eat a cabbage, and you can eat a Brussels sprout, and someone combines genes from each to make a new organism that has desireable characteristics of both, I just don't see how that could be harmful, as long as the new organism doesn't create any unexpected toxins. But when you break it down into its most basic components, it is essentially no different than selectively bred organisms.

In other words, you could potentially keep cross breeding strains of corn until a natural mutation created the same DNA as a GMO, but it could take decades or even centuries for this chance mutation to occur. By going in and splicing in your own code, you get the desired effect immediately. It doesn't mean the new organism is no longer "corn", nor does it mean the new organism could never occur as a natural mutation (in most cases). It just means you have a strain of corn that has desirable traits that didn't take decades upon decades to breed the old fashioned way.

On the other hand, I think genetically enhancing humans is immoral. YMMV.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Draco on May 14, 2015, 06:52:31 PM
The only demerits I can see is how genetic markers are used to financially hurt farmers who through no fault or action on their part ended up with seeds they replanted that were pollinated by neighboring farms.  Giving them genetics that they did not even want in their produce but still set them up for legal action for growing and selling unlicensed genetics.

As for being detrimental for health reasons I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe there is any risk.   :shrug: 

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 14, 2015, 07:23:07 PM
The writer of the article, Nina Fedoroff, stated this "Monsanto developed GM crops that tolerate a nontoxic herbicide called glyphosate, aka Roundup", Scientific American published an article http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/ that states the danger of glyphosate. So if she a distinguished bioscience professor should she not know about this? I am responding to your thread and mean no disrespect, only replying to your post. And no scientist should not have an agenda, they should present facts. She is obviously on the pro-GMO side of the equation.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 14, 2015, 07:55:35 PM
Orbean,

She knows about it.  You believe what the Scientific American article states (it is actually a reprint from another publication) but you don't believe the article by Federoff.  That is the mess that is created.  Why do you believe one side but not the other?  Each makes a statement and you choose to follow one side and deride the other.  Yet you have no more proof that one is right and one is wrong than I do.   

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 14, 2015, 08:22:04 PM
Orbean,

She knows about it.  You believe what the Scientific American article states (it is actually a reprint from another publication) but you don't believe the article by Federoff.  That is the mess that is created.  Why do you believe one side but not the other?  Each makes a statement and you choose to follow one side and deride the other.  Yet you have no more proof that one is right and one is wrong than I do.

I am sure she knows about the problems with roundup, it goes to show how biased she is. My problem with GMO's is that the inventors and producers are also the regulators, as I stated earlier. Actually I have read much on this, there are many problems with roundup. If you like I can PM you mucho article discussing issues with glyphosate, however we are talking about GMO's. I worry is the long term effects of it. It is not like we are talking about Mendels experiements. This is gene splicing, it is a new science and there is so much to be learned about it. Unfortunately we in the U.S. are the test subjects http://www.thenation.com/blog/176863/twenty-six-countries-ban-gmos-why-wont-us.
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/10-Reasons-to-Avoid-GMOs

When it comes down to it this is my main issue http://www.actionbioscience.org/biotechnology/pusztai.html
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 14, 2015, 08:25:01 PM
Orbean,

She knows about it.  You believe what the Scientific American article states (it is actually a reprint from another publication) but you don't believe the article by Federoff.  That is the mess that is created.  Why do you believe one side but not the other?  Each makes a statement and you choose to follow one side and deride the other.  Yet you have no more proof that one is right and one is wrong than I do.

I am sure she knows about the problems with roundup, it goes to show how biased she is. My problem with GMO's is that the inventors and producers are also the regulators, as I stated earlier. Actually I have read much on this, there are many problems with roundup. If you like I can PM you mucho articles discussing issues with glyphosate, however we are talking about GMO's. I worry is the long term effects of it. It is not like we are talking about Mendels experiements. This is gene splicing, it is a new science and there is so much to be learned about it. Unfortunately we in the U.S. are the test subjects http://www.thenation.com/blog/176863/twenty-six-countries-ban-gmos-why-wont-us.
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/10-Reasons-to-Avoid-GMOs

When it comes down to it this is my main issue http://www.actionbioscience.org/biotechnology/pusztai.html

Federoff said nothing about the concerns about roundup, so tell me how she is not biased towards the GMO side of the issue. I am not stirring the pot just backing up my opinion.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 08:35:11 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-trust-monsanto-with-our-food/

Not buying it. Me thinks she has an agenda

Over reaching can be self defeating. The author does not seem genuine to me.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 14, 2015, 08:59:19 PM
Orbean we will have to agree to disagree.  You have made it clear in your posts that you are on the side of the anti-GMO group and I am clearly on the side that see their benefit.  Enough said I think.
 

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: imnukensc on May 14, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
Is not having an opinion an opinion?  It's just not something I concern myself about.  The way I see it, man has been meddling in trying to improve crops/vegetables/animals for hundreds of years.  Just because he can now do it on the gene level instead of breeding a Whitefaced Hereford to an Angus or a Rhode Island Red to a White Leghorn or hybridizing corn, wheat, soybeans etc. and waiting to see the result doesn't really seem much different to me.

As a home owner with only a couple of acres of land, the only thing I don't like about Roundup besides the price is that I can't buy anything stronger or even more effective.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 09:51:53 PM
The first GMO I remember reading about, and one that has proven to be beneficial to children in poor countries who have 'Vitamin A' deficiencies which cause blindness in hundreds of thousands of children worldwide, is beta-carotene-enhanced 'Golden Rice.'   It was developed OUTSIDE of the U.S. by Swiss and German scientists.  Heralded at first, as the savior to millions of starving and vitamin-deficient peoples, it is still being demonized by anti-GMO groups.  I see improvements in crop genetics as a good thing.    Genetic engineering means more crops, improved nutritional content and more food with fewer insecticides and herbicides being employed to produce them.......we simply won't be able to feed the planet's burgeoning populations without them. 

http://www.foodpyramid.com/what-is-golden-rice/
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 14, 2015, 09:58:41 PM
That is true Nuke.  Back in the old days we had chemicals that you could spray a gravel driveway with and nothing would grow there for three or four years.    :P   Roundup and generics last a couple of months.

I buy a generic glyphosate for $12.65 a gallon in 30 gallon barrels.  If I don't use it up in one year its still good the next.   

 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 14, 2015, 10:03:32 PM
Remember the good ol' days when we could still use DDT, like Mexico and some other countries still do? >:D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 14, 2015, 10:28:35 PM
Remember the Green Revolution ? I wonder if that is where the story of poor Indian farmers committing suicide originated. (the suicides mentioned in the debated article above.) I'm still looking for documentation but the story goes-poor farmers were given hybrid seed and fertilizer so they could have more bountiful yields as part of the Green Revolution initiative. It worked. Then it comes, they cannot afford to pay for the hybrid seeds, or fertilizer necessary to grow them, and have no open pollinated seeds saved to fall back on. The land is bought by agribusiness global corps, some folks become part of the urban poor, some commit suicide.

You can read this if you want: http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2011/08/green-revolution-cullather 

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 15, 2015, 06:16:53 AM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.

The difference is, to use your example, taking genetic material from a banana and introducing genetic material from a salmon.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Wilderbeast on May 15, 2015, 06:29:33 AM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.

The difference is, to use your example, taking genetic material from a banana and introducing genetic material from a salmon.

Exactly, and Mother Nature doesn't do that.  I don't want mutant banana's spawning in my creek.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 15, 2015, 06:45:28 AM
The first GMO I remember reading about, and one that has proven to be beneficial to children in poor countries who have 'Vitamin A' deficiencies which cause blindness in hundreds of thousands of children worldwide, is beta-carotene-enhanced 'Golden Rice.'   It was developed OUTSIDE of the U.S. by Swiss and German scientists.  Heralded at first, as the savior to millions of starving and vitamin-deficient peoples, it is still being demonized by anti-GMO groups.  I see improvements in crop genetics as a good thing.    Genetic engineering means more crops, improved nutritional content and more food with fewer insecticides and herbicides being employed to produce them.......we simply won't be able to feed the planet's burgeoning populations without them. 

http://www.foodpyramid.com/what-is-golden-rice/

While there have been many advantages for folks through selective breeding and the green revolution, it is only fair to note that global food production has been sufficient for decades to provide every human with 1800 Cal/d of food adequate to meet normal nutritional needs. The problem, of course, is distribution. It is difficult for me to see how the problems with increasing human population and the relationship with carrying capacities will be either helped or hindered by GMOs.  Not all that is profitable is necessarily beneficial.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on May 15, 2015, 06:57:55 AM
Orbean we will have to agree to disagree.  You have made it clear in your posts that you are on the side of the anti-GMO group and I am clearly on the side that see their benefit.  Enough said I think.

I am not against GMO's per se, my issue is with the lack of oversight and the gene splicing cross-species, I thought I had explained that in my earlier posts
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 15, 2015, 10:02:31 AM
I am fully aware of food distribution being the major problem in many starving countries, but we cannot deny the fact that arable land worldwide is becoming more scarce each year.  Deforestation, desertification, climate change, infrastructure, increasing populations all play a part in the the mounting problems of providing enough food worldwide.  We must take advantage of improvements in plant technology to provide that food on the shrinking available arable acreage.  Advancement in plant technology allows crops to be grown in climates where it would never have been possible before.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.ARBL.HA.PC/countries/1W?display=default

Improved plant and animal genetics have caused controversy from as far back as I can remember.  My dad dealt with it.  I dealt with it.  Without the drought resistance gene in the corn seed that my brother and I paid extra for, we would not have raised a crop at all for several years.  The corn that Dad raised would have withered and died in the first couple of weeks of the hot & dry conditions that today's genetically modified corn endured for months.  You can't grow corn without moisture, but its ability to stay viable until it becomes available is amazing.  I took advantage of the technology and would not have survived without it.....no apologies.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on May 15, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
per wolfy ---> "we cannot deny the fact that arable land worldwide is becoming more scarce each year". I think this is one of the most important statements made in the thread thus far. I will state again that I am certainly no agriculture expert by any means, but, we have to use our resources to their limit if we expect to feed billions of people. Many of which have no concept of how to feed themselves.

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 15, 2015, 11:02:32 AM
fwiw
http://livingheritage.org/green-revolution.htm
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 15, 2015, 12:14:14 PM
It ain't worth much to me, at least......there are just too many things wrong with that article to even begin to discuss.  ???
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 15, 2015, 12:54:02 PM
fwiw because I dont know anything about the organization.

If you read the book review above there are similar, but a little different conclusions on how the GR affected Mexico.

An article with reference sources is heads above ones that makes claims without sources or other proof imo. At least one can look those up if inclined and determine what sort of bias may be at work.

The article written by the editors of SA covers my opinion on the issues fairly well. Transparency, third party evaluation, and genuine peer revue before I can believe what corporations say about their product. Monsanto's net profit is down, stock price is falling. If a product can be labeled GMO free by third party certification the sales rise dramatically. It will be interesting to see how this pans out in the market place with those facts in mind.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Draco on May 15, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
I am happy DDT is gone.  Look at how much that has helped the comeback of the American Eagle.  I see more now than I ever did as a kid.  It was here in Michigan on Gull Island in Lake Michigan where they discovered the link between DDT and cracked eggs.  I also have concerns that some of these chemicals are what is hurting the honey bee but I am a believer in actual evidence not just innuendo. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Draco on May 15, 2015, 02:56:19 PM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.

The difference is, to use your example, taking genetic material from a banana and introducing genetic material from a salmon.

Okay it is different but how does that difference change the fact that you are working with beneficial mutations?  What is the link between the source of the genetic code and a possible negative outcome?  It seems to me you would almost have to purposely go after genetic code with the intent to harm people.  As much as I hate Monsanto I suspect they are only greedy not trying to destroy all humanity. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 15, 2015, 04:03:07 PM
Look up Monsanto's stock performance over the last ten years....

http://www.monsanto.com/investors/pages/stock-performance.aspx
https://www.stocksplithistory.com/monsanto/

Just more interesting and eye-opening reading that may be of interest....

http://www.ibtimes.com/india-losing-2000-farmers-every-single-day-tale-rapidly-changing-society-1232913

From The Motley Fool on Monsanto....

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/30/do-gmos-and-monsanto-deserve-their-villainous-repu.aspx
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 16, 2015, 08:09:01 AM
Have you ever seen what a wild banana looks like?  Nothing like what we buy from the store.  Genetically modified?  Mutations selectively prefered?  Not much difference in my opinion.  Don't get me wrong.  Monsanto as a corporation is so evil that Satan himself would not stoop that low.  However I am not concerned about genetically modified in the way it is being done where two organic genes are spliced in order to produce improvements in the end product.  Not much different than breeding a banana tree that grew long fruit with a banana tree that did not produce hard seeds in it's fruit.

The difference is, to use your example, taking genetic material from a banana and introducing genetic material from a salmon.

Okay it is different but how does that difference change the fact that you are working with beneficial mutations?  What is the link between the source of the genetic code and a possible negative outcome?  It seems to me you would almost have to purposely go after genetic code with the intent to harm people.  As much as I hate Monsanto I suspect they are only greedy not trying to destroy all humanity.

Beneficial mutations are what folks selecting the best seeds for planting during the next crop cycle do and have always done. The source of a genetic code is species determined. Humans for instance display genetic contributions from Neanderthals and primates but none from peach trees or iguanas.  In the natural world different species do not successfully breed, despite all the old jokes about cowboys and sheep.

GMO may be beneficial, they are certainly profitable. But until more evidence is available we might remember what we told our kids when they were little - Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Just my partially informed opinion.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 16, 2015, 08:27:41 AM
I am fully aware of food distribution being the major problem in many starving countries, but we cannot deny the fact that arable land worldwide is becoming more scarce each year.  Deforestation, desertification, climate change, infrastructure, increasing populations all play a part in the the mounting problems of providing enough food worldwide.  We must take advantage of improvements in plant technology to provide that food on the shrinking available arable acreage.  Advancement in plant technology allows crops to be grown in climates where it would never have been possible before.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.ARBL.HA.PC/countries/1W?display=default

Improved plant and animal genetics have caused controversy from as far back as I can remember.  My dad dealt with it.  I dealt with it.  Without the drought resistance gene in the corn seed that my brother and I paid extra for, we would not have raised a crop at all for several years.  The corn that Dad raised would have withered and died in the first couple of weeks of the hot & dry conditions that today's genetically modified corn endured for months.  You can't grow corn without moisture, but its ability to stay viable until it becomes available is amazing.  I took advantage of the technology and would not have survived without it.....no apologies.

A complex issue no doubt. Not being a farmer, another way to look at it might be to ask why, in your example, crops more suited to a changing/changed environment and drier conditions were not planted? Rather than modifying the seed stock (and possibly eliminating seed diversity in the bargain which can only be a really big concern farmers or otherwise), why not plant something else that will be profitable and reflect new conditions?

Technology that allowed old ones in the SW to reliably plant and harvest The Three Sisters (squash corn and beans), made use of semi arid lands quite effectively and helped sustain folks for hundreds of years albeit at much lower population densities than we see today. Population being a related problem, to be sure.

From what second hand knowledge of the business i have, farming is subject to many financial pressures that are not necessarily related to growing things. How much of that influences planting decisions and farming practice? I don't know. You are the expert, so I'll listen.

What I do recognize however, is not everything that is profitable is necessarily beneficial and sometimes the most beneficial things are not necessarily profitable.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 16, 2015, 04:05:05 PM
First of all, I am NOT an expert, but more a SURVIVOR of the farming game.  I can tell you though, that you have to have a market for what you choose to raise on your land in order to make a profit.  If those markets do not exist you have no way of obtaining money to trade for life's necessities.  Sure, I COULD raise 'The Three Sisters' just like those that Buffalo Bird Woman raised in her garden, but that was a 'subsistence' form of agriculture and she didn't have to pay real estate taxes, either.  How many hills of corn, beans and squash would I have to tend by hand, find a market for, transport and find buyers for, to make a profit?   

Transportation is a major factor and has been since the days of the founding of the country.  Corn farmers back then had no practical or profitable way of moving their corn crop to market without first distilling it into the ethanol (condensed and easily transportable corn) that people guzzled with relish.  Barrels of it were cheaply moved by oxcart and flatboat to thirsty consumers.  We fought a war over it.....read about the Whiskey Rebellion.  Same deal today, but we now burn it in our automobiles and move it via railroad tank car.  The market has to exist before we have a reason to grow it. 

The Great Plains has very few large metropolitan areas where we can sell fresh 'garden produce' without transporting it for long distances to coastal markets for consumption.  Our transportation system is simply not equipped to handle it.  That means we are destined to produce commodity crops which are fed to livestock locally in huge cattle feed yards, pork confinement operations, poultry confinements and the like.  There are simply not enough farmers anymore to to produce the food the nation needs on today's scale OR in the bucolic manner in which those who wish us to pursue those styles of agriculture, could even consider.     IF we could find the time, manpower, available acreage, cheap transportation, water, and all else it would require to produce an organically-grown crop in sufficient quantities to feed an ever-increasing population, food would become so expensive, few would be able to afford anything else.  Do a little research on the percentage of money that people in our country pay for their food compared to other countries, but don't count how much of that money is spent in restaurants.  Also, look up how much of the money we ALL are taxed for the 'Farm Bill' every year and how much of that money is actually spent on agriculture.   Most of that money is spent for FREE food for people that are either unable or unwilling to pay for it on their own. 

That's about the gist of it, from my perspective.  I'm only growing a garden these days, so what do I know?   
                                                                   :shrug:

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Dano on May 16, 2015, 09:28:49 PM
I want to start off by saying I don't know much about farming, other than what little work I did as a kid on my Grandparent's farm before it was sold.  And I have not been able to go back and read all the links that have been included in this thread, but here are a few thoughts...

What I can say is this...I worked this past (2014) harvest season and into production season for one of Monsanto's competitors, who also work with GMO corn.  Their product includes lines that are herbicide and/or pesticide resistant, as well as untreated versions.   Some of the GM strains were made to grow in high drought areas and others in high moisture areas, both which turned out to give better yields for the farmers.

The pesticide resistant versions were blended so as not to kill off an entire field of pests.  Killing off all the bugs in an area has proven to be just as bad as not killing any.  These versions also returned higher yields for the farmers.

So far, it appeared to be good for the farmers because the last three years have had record harvest levels.  Sounds good, right?  Well, last year the overage in harvest caused the company to plant several thousand acres LESS last year because the supply on hand was so high.  That's not so good for the farmers.

This year, they planned to plant ZERO local acreage because they still have a huge amount of past harvest yields on hand.  Another not-so-good thing for the farmers.  Then, the local plant I worked at dropped from 60-plus full time employees, to only 14 in the last month or so.  SO...now not only are the local growers who have worked with this company for a long time out of work again, but now more than half of the employees who worked there also out of a job, benefits, etc.  I realize the farmers may be able to grow for another company or go back to shelling the corn and taking it to market, but the folks who worked there have nothing to fall back on.

So I see the benefits of GMO's, but I can also say I've seen a negative aspect of them first hand as well.  Being able to produce a fuller crop now where before there was approximately 1/3 to 1/2 lost, is great.  But producing to levels where storage becomes an issue and folks are losing jobs....well maybe the scales have tipped too far one way.  Just saying.

And since I'm still uneducated enough to not totally understand all of it, I guess I'm still on the fence.  I do know the regulation issues have been a huge problem and suffer from typical corruption as do most things in life today.  I think there is a better way to regulate this issue, but there's still way too much money blocking it from happening any time soon.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2015, 05:05:17 AM
Supply/demand, boom/bust, drought/flood.....it's just part of farming, Dano.  Like my neighbor's dad used to say, "They're only gon'na let you make so much." :shrug:    That's the way it seems most of the time, too.....either you have a lot to sell and the prices suck or you have a small crop and they pay a premium price for the product.  I don't know if you remember me mentioning the fact that we produced more corn & soybeans this year than any other year since our family has been farming, but it was a boost for us after several years of low yields due to drought.  Corn was a pretty decent price during those dry years....over $7/bushel for a short period of time, but we didn't have much to sell. :-\     Now, after a good year for almost all of the grain farmers, corn is just about half of that much.   We just handle more material during the good years and less of it during the dry years......pays about the same. :doh:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on May 18, 2015, 08:54:11 AM
When I think about GMOs, the Irish Potato Famine comes to mind because of the lack of diversity within crop stocks that allowed it to progress as it did. The other part of the story, although less well known, is that at the same time folks were starving, Ireland was exporting grain to England. A lot of it. A fact that might get to the business side of food production. Or may not be relevant at all.

I'm not someone who thinks a few heads of free range broccoli are going to make everything all sweetness and light but I do know enough biology to understand the utility and necessity of diversity within systems and that seems a significant, if not the major drawback, with GMO, especially when mono cropping approaches are the industry norm.

From what you describe about the business of farming it seems require more of a commitment to something besides a paycheck to keep at it... especially since in terms of agricultural policies anyone outside of a major corporation seems to be treated as a necessary inconvenience.

I'll remember this discussion next time I buy bread.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2015, 10:52:09 AM
The Irish suffered through the potato famine, mainly through the political machinations of the British.....

https://mises.org/library/what-caused-irish-potato-famine

History proves, that if it were not for the direction of the political winds of the moment and those who purport to know what is best for those producing the food, life as a farmer would be FAR easier and much more lucrative.   No doubt, the blight-resistant GMO potato would have lessened the plight of the population of Ireland......IF they'd have had it available at the time.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26189722
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on May 18, 2015, 02:21:59 PM
Look up Monsanto's stock performance over the last ten years....

http://www.monsanto.com/investors/pages/stock-performance.aspx
https://www.stocksplithistory.com/monsanto/

Just more interesting and eye-opening reading that may be of interest....

http://www.ibtimes.com/india-losing-2000-farmers-every-single-day-tale-rapidly-changing-society-1232913

From The Motley Fool on Monsanto....

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/30/do-gmos-and-monsanto-deserve-their-villainous-repu.aspx

Hi Wolfy. I realize the stock market is a long term game. In the article I posted it was actually generic brands of roundup being cited for a goodly portion of their current losses not consumer reactionary spending habits, but we will have to wait to see what happens next with glyphosate, and GMO labeling and its affects.

The article on India's farmers was a little hard to sort. Numbers of land owning farmers is way down, numbers of agricultural laborers is up. This seems to support the notion that native farmers lost their foothold during the Green Revolution, and it continues with the high price of GM seeds still contributing to their problems. Because as you point out higher yields does not necessarily translate to higher profits for the farmers. (or is seldom never translates to higher profits a better way to say it?) All those laborers have to be working for someone, the article does not say who exactly only: "The rise in agricultural labor could be explained by the falling size of land-holdings over time,"

It is a complex issue and I don't intend that we should try to sort it all out here. If I understood the numbers quoted, India has 25% of the population are Cultivators. Which I think to mean land owning farmers. An additional 30% are ag. laborers. That is 55% of the pop. involved in some type of Ag. That is eyeopening. I may have misunderstood what was said, but could you imagine 55% of US pop in AG?

Sorry I didn't have the stamina to wade through the Motley Fools, or EU side any further.
  As said I don't expect our humble discussion to resolve any issues or alter opinions. I like to think we are wise enough, as a group representing a somewhat different view of things natural and consumable than those caught up in the distractions of contemporary society, to realize no one group or point of view has the solutions to our present predicament.
We study the past, investigate the new and sort our duffels until just right
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2015, 03:51:50 PM
It's interesting that, in relation to the rest of the world, we spend FAR less of our earned (or unearned) income on food than does ANY other country or nation in the entire known universe.  So, even if you choose to never eat even a single bite of GMO food, and you can, there ARE sources for organically grown, non-modified foodstuffs.  It will, no doubt, cost MUCH more than that from a source of GMO food, BUT it will still cost you much less than that which anyone else in the whole wide world pays for theirs......organic non-organic, modified or non-modified.

Here's an interesting chart, from an independent source, that vividly illustrates that relationship.....

http://wsm.wsu.edu/researcher/wsmaug11_billions.pdf

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 19, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
Although I do not agree with all Madeleine Albright (former Secretary of Agriculture during President Clinton's administration) espouses, she was in Nebraska speaking at UNL on the merits/demerits of GMOs yesterday at the Food Factory of the Future conference.....

http://www.omaha.com/news/education/at-unl-madeleine-albright-discusses-how-food-rich-america-can/article_576b2afa-fd7f-11e4-b300-e3ad08494f6a.html?mode=jqm
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 20, 2015, 10:36:22 AM
This today from the Associated Press on bees & the lack of milkweeds.....

http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c11a96b4ad082fe88aa0db04305/Article_2015-05-19-US-SCI--Bee%20Plan/id-698eae7839134964b613cc2cfef83614
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on May 20, 2015, 11:47:48 AM
I think the bee habitat thing should take the spread of killer bees into consideration.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: NantanLupan on May 31, 2015, 11:04:34 PM
Well, I figure that GMO's and whatnot can be a good thing, and also a bad thing. I have qualms about putting 'terminator' genes into the crops to prevent farmers being able from re-use seeds from the last harvest on a large scale. IOW, the vast majority of seeds from a harvest of GMO crops will not be able to be used. It's somewhat similar to the hybrids you can find at places like Lowe's, Walmart, Tractor Supply, etc, the difference being that hybrids aren't the same thing as GMO's. In fact, you'll not find GMO seeds available for the average gardener. GMO's are pretty much exclusively for the large-scale farmer. It's my understanding that the process of creating GMO's is different than hybrids, part of it being that the scientists creating GMO's use DNA for things like some sort of fish that aids the process or something. Of course, you've got your big GMO corporations that sue the little farmers who sell seeds that hybridized from their neighbor's crops and their own crops.

On the other hand, we've got the big corporations growing massive amounts of food that can be used to feed the poor all over the world. Some folks can say that it causes cancer, some don't, there's not really a whole lot of reliable information from either side that I've seen.

Look, we still don't really understand the long-term consequences of this--what is called--"frankenfood". It was a few years back that I heard about GMO trees being created that would maybe be softer for paper products, or harder for construction applications, etc. Now if those seeds travel outside of the designated area, whether it's for food, or for trees, or whatever, what will happen then? What if a lumber mill accidentally winds up with a fair number of trees that, unbeknownst to them, were originally designed to be softer for paper products? What if some sort of environmental catastrophe completely changes the landscape so that there are major crop failures with GMO's? Or if GMO crops bring a plague of super-locusts? We don't really have those answers. Would these super-locusts wipe up all the corn--GMO or not--in the United States? What if some sort of fungus causes major crop failures linked to Monsanto in some way? Now, sure, there have always been crop failures throughout history. But what if GMO crops wind up causing the crop failures due to the overuse of GMO's and their linked herbicides and pesticides?

And then we've got the United States government actually sending diplomats to foreign countries and pressuring(sometimes threatening) other countries to legalize GMO's and pressuring them to use GMO's and actively seeking economic targets in other countries if they don't get their way on this issue? Do the GMO manufacturers know that their GMO's will actually work in these other countries with their climates, etc?

I remember watching a video a few years back, from a governmental official in Mexico, who talked about a farmer who accidentally wound up planting GMO's in his field and it caused some pretty major crop damage if I remember correctly. See, the US Government sends corn to Mexico to help feed folks. Well, farmers in Mexico sometimes got ahold of that corn to feed their families, and kept some of it and started sowing it among their own crops, and it caused problems.

There's a lot to say about this issue. At this point, I'm not sold that it's a great thing, or that it's totally a negative thing. There are good things(helping feed a large percentage of the world's population), and negatives(so-called "crony capitalism", corporate sponsored government pressure). A little of good, a little of bad. Or a lot, depending on how you view it.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 01, 2015, 08:57:01 AM
Good and thoughtful post, NL! :thumbsup: :cheers:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on June 01, 2015, 12:50:09 PM
Yes it is.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: okcmco on June 03, 2015, 11:19:50 AM
It is interesting that most every other country I visit will not allow Monsanto GMO seeds in.  It is also interesting that the country in which Monsanto does the most lobbying (the USA)  seems ok with GMO. The authorities told us that saccharine and equal were safe.  thalidomide was approved by the FDA. 100 years ago they said smoking was ok for you
  I will avoid GMO if I can. Esp corn and soy.   Monsanto has no one's best interests in mind except Monsanto and its share holders they are in business for profit.
  I find it interesting the liberals seem to want to change things (for the better it seems but in reality it does not always work that way). And conservatives want things to go back to the way they used to be, before (fill in the blank) messed everything up. Yet in the GMO argument conservatives seem to be OK with science and new technologies and its the liberals who want to "get back to the way things used to be".   Of course it might depend upon how much biotech stocks you are holding....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on June 04, 2015, 08:52:11 AM
"See, the US Government sends corn to Mexico to help feed folk..."

What NL noted is true enough but only in the context of post NAFTA conditions in Mexico. And that folks, for better or worse, good or bad or otherwise is all the whole GMO thing is about.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on June 05, 2015, 06:57:00 AM
This speaks more about the truth than any doctored evidence or claims from either the gubmint or Monsanto ever will... http://www.cornucopia.org/is-the-usda-a-wholly-owned-subsidiary-of-monsanto/ (http://www.cornucopia.org/is-the-usda-a-wholly-owned-subsidiary-of-monsanto/)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 05, 2015, 08:12:54 AM
Follow the money ;)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: WoodsWoman on June 08, 2015, 08:55:57 AM
Interesting article.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27446-did-gmo-corn-really-kill-all-those-bees-in-canada



WW.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 08, 2015, 10:18:24 AM
Thanks, Marcia......interes ting, indeed!  Even more interesting than the article itself, were the comments at the end of the blog entry.

Here's another very interesting tooth in the gears of GMO research.....GMO tobacco, of all things.  They are using it as the basis for the only known vaccine to prevent the spread of the Ebola virus and some vaccines for use in HIV and cancer patients.....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/health/ebola-tobacco-plant/

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on June 08, 2015, 10:37:58 AM
I've learned a lot following this thread.

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 09, 2015, 09:03:21 AM
From the OMAHA WORLD HERALD this morning on the failed merger of Monsanto & Syngenta....

http://www.omaha.com/money/big-ag-merger-flops-but-farmers-in-nebraska-and-iowa/article_55b932ec-b741-5ee5-b994-bf69ada81115.html?mode=jqm
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on June 09, 2015, 03:47:26 PM
Hell, they only offered 45 billion....  :crazy:

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 09, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
Yeah,........penny pinchers. ;)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on June 09, 2015, 05:53:50 PM
"The terms of the deal are too good for Syngenta to pass up, said Monsanto spokeswoman Sara Miller."

Sounds like Monsanto thinks they made them a offer that they can't refuse.  I would  be sleeping lightly if I were the head of Syngenta.

Monsanto is, in this case, going to far and it appears their greed knows no boundary.  It is unwise to have one company controlling half of the corn market in the world.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on June 09, 2015, 07:31:49 PM
Interesting article.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27446-did-gmo-corn-really-kill-all-those-bees-in-canada



WW.

Cannot quite git the gist of exactly what this blogger is trying to say. Did GMO really kill all those bees? No, but Yes! What did you, WW, and Wolfy find interesting?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 09, 2015, 08:57:16 PM
Interesting article.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/27446-did-gmo-corn-really-kill-all-those-bees-in-canada



WW.

Cannot quite git the gist of exactly what this blogger is trying to say. Did GMO really kill all those bees? No, but Yes! What did you, WW, and Wolfy find interesting?
I was a bit foggy on what she was trying to get at myself, but as I said in my last post about this blog, it was the comments below it that I found most interesting. ???
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on June 09, 2015, 11:42:47 PM
So is there a GMO solution in the works for the banana fungus problem?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Mannlicher on June 11, 2015, 07:09:24 AM
probably.  Bottom line is that without GMO food, most of the world would have starved long ago.  No crop is 'true to it's roots', so to speak, all have been modified in one way or another.
I guess we have to have something to (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif) about though.  Government, big business, small business, just something.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on June 12, 2015, 06:25:47 AM


   Soilent Green,  coming to your local food Mart soon.      >:D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 12, 2015, 07:14:44 AM
C'mon, Moe.....Soylent Green NEVER contained GMOs!  :rolleyes:


http://youtu.be/8Sp-VFBbjpE
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on June 12, 2015, 05:54:39 PM
C'mon, Moe.....Soylent Green NEVER contained GMOs!  :rolleyes:


http://youtu.be/8Sp-VFBbjpE

 They're just getting us prepped for the next phase.




Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on June 13, 2015, 07:32:10 PM
An interesting case study ( Summary of the Tryptophan Toxicity Incident )  http://www.nemsn.org/Articles/summary_tryptophan%20Fagan.htm (http://www.nemsn.org/Articles/summary_tryptophan%20Fagan.htm)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on June 13, 2015, 07:32:40 PM
The corn I had tonight sure was good!

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 13, 2015, 09:31:22 PM
I recall that tryptophan incident, zamms.....clearly a 'fubar' of Biblical proportion.  The lack of testing on any new drug can be horrific in consequence, as this one clearly demonstrated. :'(


Creek.....mmmmmmmm, CORN! :drool:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 27, 2015, 05:16:11 AM
I ran across this article on AGWEB this morning while I was checking grain prices......

It?s (mostly) a global juggernaut, but mind the gaps

It?s been 19 years since the first biotech crop was commercially planted and sold, and genetically modified organisms (GMOs) feel rather ubiquitous?at least in the U.S. Biotech adoption has proved pervasive for U.S. farmers, with 93% in corn, 94% in soybeans and 96% in cotton.

Yet elsewhere across the globe, the reception hasn?t been quite so warm.

The most recent jarring reminder of this came during a stretch from November 2013 to December 2014, when China rejected shipments of corn containing the MIR 162 trait from Syngenta (Agrisure Viptera). Although this corn is now cleared for Chinese delivery, the fallout continues with pending class-action lawsuits.

Duane Martin, product lead for commercial traits at Syngenta, says the approval process with China for MIR 162 was initiated in 2010 but took more than twice as long as expected.

The process was frustrating, Martin says, but what?s more troubling is that it could happen again.

?The industry has realized this is not an Agrisure issue?it?s industry-wide,? he says. ?There are other trait suppliers who could find themselves in this same situation.?

International groups are working overtime to make sure history doesn?t repeat itself, however.
?There are a lot of dynamics at play,? says Denise Dewar, executive director, plant biotechnology at CropLife International. ?That?s the hot spot we?re in right now. How do we respect the Chinese government?s processes without limiting innovation??

By other criteria, China is way ahead of some countries. As of 2014, China was one of a handful of countries that grows biotech and grants imports. Many countries still do neither, including parts of western Asia, eastern Europe and most of Africa.

North and South America lead the way in biotech grain production. Europe, despite many of its nations refusing to grow biotech crops, is the No. 1 importer of biotech grain.

When countries begin growing biotech crops, it is often a game-changer for those nations, Dewar says. If the trait works, adoption tends to be fast.

?Anywhere the technology has been introduced, farmers have really run with it,? she says.

Dewar points to India as one example. The country approved Bt cotton in 2002. A few years later, yields dramatically rose. Today, the country has moved from a net importer of cotton to one of the world?s largest exporters.

Another trend to watch, she adds, is more governmental scientists are developing biotech crops for their country?s farmers. Bt eggplant in Bangladesh is one example, she says.

Bangladesh is a poor country with 150 million people, and eggplant helps fuel the nation?s populace. With a short 100-day approval process, Bt eggplant was in farmer fields in early 2014. Bangladesh is now researching and testing biotech potatoes, cotton and rice.

?More individual countries will see an agronomic need and deploy a specific technology to benefit their own people,? Dewar says.

Meanwhile, in Africa, ?pro-poor? crops, such as pest-resistant cowpeas and fortified bananas in research trials, could someday take root on African farms. Vietnam approved Bt corn imports earlier this year.

Some days it marches, and some days it stumbles, but global biotech adoption moves forward. 



Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on July 27, 2015, 07:42:49 AM
Why is it that we need these GMO crops now? I don't ask out of ignorance but rather lets discuss why these crops were modified in the first place, whats was the need for them? was it to make a crops more pest resistant, drought tolerable, disease resistant or was it the angle that a farmer would not need as much water, pesticides, and it would therefore be cheaper for him to be able to grow crops in less than ideal standards? Or was there another motive? I don't personally believe the world would have run out of food, I don't think production is the only issue, I believe the issue also involves distribution, and that some parts of the world have suffered severe drought. If you add in the issue of over-population in some areas then the whole mess gets out of balance.

I don't think throwing super crops to feed the worlds poor is an actual solution, and certainly not the solution for the rest of the world. Corporations do not invest billions of dollars for purely humanitarian reasons they exist to make money and control the market, when foreign countries rely on single or minimal suppliers of seed to grow crops for either their people or to sustain the economy through export I don't see that as a good thing, it's just welfare on a much larger scale. Another thing is that if a country relies on another country for it's crop seed that pooerr country then becomes indentured more or less to open up it's other resources to the country/corporation that is feeding it.

 I would be interested in your view Wolfy as you are a Farmer and have seen the way things used to be and what they've become, and even tho I am not a GMO proponent, I do respect your opinion and would appreciate any light you could shed on this.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: MnSportsman on July 27, 2015, 08:05:24 AM
  I think is is not just food & feeding people that the GMO people are thinking about...


Quote
In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage


Source:http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on July 27, 2015, 09:22:47 AM
  I think is is not just food & feeding people that the GMO people are thinking about...


Quote
In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries, with less than 5% used to produce ethanol. In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage


Source:http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

And now you've gone and thrown another wrench in the issue,,,,  ;)  troublemaker
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on July 27, 2015, 09:33:57 AM
  On any subjects concerning farming and the growing of food I have to defer to our resident farmer,  in the past I've pretty much stuck to the status quo about grow foods, I grew up in a time when my family's and neighbor's produce requirments were filled by Victory Gardens in every ones back or side yard,  my folks canned the overage for winter, we made our own salt pork and bacon,  my grandfather (we all lived in a three Decker house) had a big chicken coup at the end of our garden that housed about a hundred and fifty or so chickens which took care of our poultry and egg needs,  in the spring my folks, grand parents, and my uncle would by a couple of White faced steers and butcher them at the start of winter,  and I started hunting small game at about nine years old for some meat variety to our menu.

 So, you can gather in the above that I'm a all for natural, organic, free range, support your local  growers,  don't screw with my food kind of guy,  I have never supported the man made Global Warming BS that science has been trying to get us to empty our wallets to fix.

 All that said,  I've been doing a lot of reading about some of this stuff for a while and what has become clear to me is that it's no longer black and white or left and right,  some of this stuff is real, and it does need to be addressed now.

 Climate change;

 The most important issues I think that are facing our kids and grandkids are climate change,  I don't know what's causing it,  I doubt it's auto exhaust and cow farts,  but I do know that 50*F. in Alaska in winter and over 10 feet of snow fall in south eastern New England ain't normal,  neither is 70*F. days and 40*F. nights in my area normal for my area of the state in mid summer.
 Heavy flooding in the south and extreme droughts in the south west have happened before,  but not usually like it's been lately.
 
 World Population;

 The worlds population is expected to grow by two Billion more people by 2025,  and that figure is expected to reach as high 5 billion more by 2050,  why that is such a problem is because we are stretching the limits of food production today as it is,  which where the next two problems we face comes into play.

 Food & Water;

 It's looking like we (the worlds population) are on the edge of just enough and not quite enough,  while the demand for food continues to grow, especially in under developed nations,  more and more crops are being turned into fuel and less and less into actual food,  farm lands are being turned into industrial and residential property,  and a higher demand for meat products has a lot of produce going to feed for commercial meat grows and less for human consumption.
 Next is water,  we all need it or we die, it's that simple,  personally I don't have a problem Yet,  but,  it's costing me well over $2000.00 a year now for tap water and sewer use fees,  20 years ago it was included as a part of my municipal property tax,  not anymore.
 CA.  from what I hear is having a serious drought,  water is being rationed very strictly,  ranchers and farmers (all part of the food chain) are being denied the water they need to just maintain let alone grow.
 I read a little while back in a National Geographic report that of all the water on this rock,  most of it is either salted sea/ocean water or frozen as ice at or near the Poles,  or water that is tainted, unreachable, or not potable in any way,  they gave percentages but I don't remember them except for one,  the amount of water on the planet that we can reach and can drink,  and that figure was 1%,  now that's a scary thought.

 So, what's this all got to do with BGMO,  only that it may be that there are people, governments, and Corporations that know more about the future than us peasants do,  maybe they are taking climate change,  over population,  shortages of food, water, and fuel into consideration and trying to develop new ways to produce foods,  treat water,  and mine for fuel,  do I think they're all doing it to save mankind,  some maybe, it's not unheard of for good people to work for the good of all.
 But I'm not naive,  most whether is Monsanto, Standard Oil, or the Washington political machine,  most are probably doing it for the money or the power that having the answers will bring,  and like it or not these things like GMO's may end up being the lesser of two evils.
       
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 27, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
That was a good post, Moe......I guess I'm pretty much in the same place in my thoughts.  Although retired, I AM a farmer and pretty much always have been, but I am far from being an expert with all the answers on this subject.  As a matter of fact, I have a LOT of questions on the subject that I continually try to find answers for.   That was why I started the thread in the first place.....to get others' thoughts on the questions & answers on whether they are good, bad or in that gray area somewhere in the middle.  I have discovered that many of you, that have responded, feel the same way.  It IS confusing, but I try to keep an open mind and read between the lines when looking at the sources of the 'facts' that are presented in the diatribes on both sides of the fence.  One thing that cannot be denied, is that now that the 'genie is out of the bottle,' it ain't goin' away!  Using it wisely for the benefit of mankind is the conundrum we all have to face.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Quenchcrack on July 27, 2015, 11:35:40 AM
I know the GMOs are intended to improve yields and delivered quality.  However,  I have been suffering through a bag of red grapes that have a skin like an NFL football.  Pulling them off the vine is like pulling the head off of a garden snake.  Taste is similar to newsprint soaked in sugar water.  OK, yield is up, more grapes make it to the supermarket intact.  But who the hell wants to eat them?  :P
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 27, 2015, 11:54:10 AM
No easy answers to this.  Roundup ready alfalfa which is a GMO is sure a good way to cut down on weeds.  Weeds in our area are taking over.  If you grow common alfalfa seed the weed content gets higher every year.  You feed the weed infested alfalfa and the cattle or horses spread weed seeds all over the place and pretty soon you have weeds everywhere.  RUR Alfalfa doesn't seem to yield more than common seed but it does seem to have a bit longer life.  Common lasts about 5 to 7 years.  RUR lasts about 8 years. 

While it would be nice if everyone could grow or raise their own food it isn't going to happen and most folks don't live where they could do that in sufficient quantity to survive. 

I have always trusted our food supply.  That might be naive in the changing market place but I have never had a problem.  I bought red grapes and green grapes the other day and they are fine.  No tough skins or poor taste Max.  I wonder where they came from?  They were not labeled with country of origin.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on July 27, 2015, 01:12:09 PM
  As an aside and not anything to do with GMO specifically,  another of the papers I read about the supposedly coming food and water shortages (Scientist are pretty sure the globe is looking at a serious situation for 2050 or there abouts) is that it's looking like there's no way to produce enough food or potable water if we continue along the same lines as we are now.
  What's being researched and experimented on is bigger yields,  produce that will last longer without spoiling,  and indoor farms that will allow growing seasons throughout the year and growing in places that are hostile environments now.
  Some things being worked on kind of rub me the wrong way but does make sense in the long term,  one is changing our diets to include more plant material and less meat,  we can argue the merits of what might be saved by switching from less meat to more veggies,  but it's complicated and has to do with animals taking more room to raise per acre of space compared to edible plants and how much plant material it takes to feed the animals for what you get out of them.
  One of the biggest changes is in waste,  we waste almost as much food in this country as we consume,  in less developed areas of the world that percentage is much higher because of losses through a lack of refrigeration,  poor transportation, and poor harvesting methods,  in the states here we throw away a lot of good usable food simply because of "Best by" dates, or the meat or produce starts to look a bit less than fresh, food stores throw away food that's perfectly edible but has been on the shelves for more than the allotted time,  and we the consumers mostly buy for the week rather than for the day,  we only eat a portion of what we buy and toss what we don't use or we don't eat leftovers allot.
 It was suggested that if we could cut half the waste in the food industry and at home we could feed an excess 2 billion people without producing any more than we do now.
 As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: imnukensc on July 27, 2015, 02:08:49 PM
As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.

Israel seems to have a handle on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMWUjda3fA
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Wilderbeast on July 27, 2015, 04:05:39 PM
As for water,  desalination and treating "used" water to make it safe and fresh is being researched as we speak.

Israel seems to have a handle on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMWUjda3fA

And if you have a nice big desert just add a large solar array and the water is practically free after the initial construction.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Punty on July 30, 2015, 02:40:47 PM
    I am not a fan of GMO products. I don't want them banned, but I sure would like them labeled, something that the industry pays a lot of money to politicians to make sure it never happens.
  I have issues with GMO products on a number of levels, briefly because I don't like how a regular farmer can have his crops contaminated with GMO crops, and he can be sued by Monsanto even if he never wanted GMO crops in his field.
   I don't like how they splice bacterial genes with plant genes...to me there is a line there that probably shouldn't be crossed.
   I don't like how the GMO companies monopolize the seed industry making heirloom seeds all but non-existent, in place of seeds that grow sterile plants. so farmers become dependant on them.
   Mostly, I don't like how the industry squashes and significant research into GMO products and potential risks or side effects, links to health problems, and how they spend so much money to prevent clear and understandable labels..even voluntary ones.
   
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 30, 2015, 05:08:34 PM
Very well stated Punty. I agree with you on each and every point.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 30, 2015, 08:43:42 PM
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 30, 2015, 10:03:38 PM
By profit, do you mean money, or for benefit. I know what you mean but my family has profited from gardening, in that we get better food, better tasting food that no one has to wonder what is on it, in it, how or where it was raised.

These are not questions that I always ask, or demand to be answered all the time. Sometimes I just go with the flow and do things the easiest way possible. I've been a rather successful gardener, and a very poor one. After several years of disinterest, last year I grew a small garden. This year I did not put much effort into it. It is something I could do, and it would imo be a good thing if I would make it a year round priority to grow as much as I could- I live in a residential neighborhood with not much land. But I have bigger places, better places to grow. It is not easy, which is I think, your point. If I had to rely on it exclusively - well it never would have been enough- and probably no matter how much more I tried.

Many in this thread have considered GM to be the same/similar thing as hybridization. I feel it to be extraordinarily different, so I have grown hybridized/non-GMO veggies(or at least I thought they were). I have also used some pesticides, and some herbicides. At this point in my learning, I would rather not, but even if I did at least I would know that it was done with care and concern for well being rather than monetary gain over all other considerations.

I'm a little double minded in all this. That's why I agreed with Punty on every point, ie. not banning them. That's why I'm not strictly on organics only. I accept that GMO are prevalent.
   It's very difficult, expensive, time consuming to avoid them completely so I don't stress over it. Nevertheless when I think about gmo with a certain kind of cynicism, with an eye on everything else happening in the world  I feel under attack.

There are a lot of pieces in play so imo you can't just say without gmo billions would starve......maybe add more later
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 30, 2015, 10:24:42 PM
That's pretty much where I'm at, too.  Hard to put a finger on it all, ain't it? :shrug:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 30, 2015, 11:34:36 PM
Where I live we can't have backyard chickens just yet, though a permit has been discussed in city council. Watering your lawn is restricted to odd/ even days by address, however watering food crops is not restricted and you can have a garden in your front yard if you so desire- though that could be restricted by any neighborhood homeowners agreement I suppose. .... Just trying to think of something positive ;D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: zammer on July 31, 2015, 09:55:24 AM
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)

And this is why I hold my tongue  8) I do realize farming is not an easy rosy life and I understand that food production has changed drastically in the past century but I still do not like the attempts to not label GMO crops, because they are basically telling me ...I don't need to know, and I personally feel that is not right. I will decide what I want to eat whether it's pure junk or the most healthiest of food.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Punty on July 31, 2015, 10:15:24 AM
Just curious if you guys have ever farmed or tried to grow a crop for a profit?  What I mean is, have you any firsthand experience with growing non-hybrid, non-modified plants without any chemical pesticides or herbicides?  It's the way we all used to farm and try to make a living, but there are many reasons that we don't do much of that kind of thing anymore.  Many, if not all of them, have already been written about in the thread.  It's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it all......and it continues to be.  Good, well-mannered discussion, so far.......I knew we could do it! ;)

  Just to clarify a couple of things....

1. I understand the difference between hybrid and GMO, but Monsanto generally buys out local seed suppliers entirely and making only their own GMO seeds available for retail. They do it all over the world.

2. I have no experience farming, outside of a little home garden, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a farmer may have his own, non-Monsanto crops in his own field, but if his crops become contaminated by Monsanto products in any way, even by pollination, that farmer can and will be sued by Monsanto, and successfully.
  They even sue farmers who save seeds because the seeds are patented.

  Both of these are related. Monsanto seeks to destroy any un-patented farming goods.

  I prefer choice.....choice of the farmers, and choice of the consumers. I prefer that a farmer can grow whatever they like, save whatever seeds they want to save, and consumers to be informed whether the food they are eating is GMO or not, so they can make their own decision.


 Incidentally, there is evidence.....not proof....but evidence, that the prevalence of GMO crops is the root cause of the massive honeybee die offs. They can't draw the sustenance they need from GMO pollen, and the hive weakens and is susceptible to contagion.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: upthecreek on July 31, 2015, 10:30:14 AM
wolfy, As a youngster helping my father raise cattle, it was all I could do to insure to good cuttings of hay twice a year on the grass that we leased. I couldn't imagine trying to grow and profit from a crop for human consumption. Regardless of ones own opinion I think any farmer needs all the help they can get. Methods vary but good judgement always prevails. Bless our farmers.

Creek
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 31, 2015, 08:15:08 PM
Thank you, Creek.   It's kind of hard for many to understand, I think......but it IS a continual struggle to survive.  By 'survive' I mean making the right decisions as to what type of crop to raise and which one you will benefit most from and still be a good steward of the land.  You HAVE to pay the machinery, repair, seed, fertilizer, herbicide & insecticide bills of course, but it's the TAX MAN that gets paid first!  You pay him before you even consider paying others and least of all, yourself for the work you've done that year.........you have to or the farm won't be there for you to work next year.  There are good years and bad years, but you'd better squirrel some away for those years that you make nothing or, worse yet, see a negative return.    We went through THAT with the drought in 2012 and just one more disastrous year like that would have made it VERY hard to survive.   I didn't buy any new Moras that season! :lol:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: MnSportsman on August 02, 2015, 07:05:01 PM
  Something to read:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-sound-alarm-over-supercharged-gm-organisms-which-could-spread-in-the-wild-and-cause-environmental-disasters-10434010.html
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on October 07, 2015, 11:22:54 AM
Something else to read on cancer, biotech, Monsanto, etc. from The Washington Post. ;)

http://wpo.st/SyRf0
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on October 07, 2015, 11:56:45 AM
As a long time user of glyphos products, and more so with the advent of Roundup Ready Alfalfa seed, I think this is easily the most interesting and well thought out article that I have read.  Thanks for posting it Wolfy.

I tell my alfalfa customers that it is Roundup ready alfalfa and, so far, not one has had an issue with that.  What they get is a forage that is weed free, won't contaminate their pastures, and is palatable for their livestock. 
 
 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on November 19, 2015, 09:17:38 PM
I just heard on the news tonight that GMO salmon has been approved by the FDA.  Here's an article from Reuter's that I fished from the 'net. :lol:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/20/us-aquabounty-technologies-fda-idUSKCN0T826T20151120
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on November 19, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
Well all the usual players are against it.  Nothing new in that.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on November 20, 2015, 11:43:03 AM
Last month or so I watched a few programs on early Anglo Saxon/Migration Era history. One made a comment that these farmers in England were very successful. I don't have their sources, have not researched further, and can't tell you how it was calculated. It was said that not until the 1940s were farmers able to exceed the tons per acre achieved by these early farmers.

Im sure there are many possible reasons, and could be more complicated than their simple statement alludes to. Still, I found it interesting.

The thing that popped in my head when I read this mornings post was the Biblical sanctions against mixing of kinds. Not even sure where it's at, or exactly what meaning has been ascribed to it, or how Christians are supposed to relate to it. I just know that it is in there, and some people were doing it anyway.

Is that something we can talk about?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on November 20, 2015, 12:57:29 PM
I believe that comes from Old Testament Jewish law rather than a directive from 'The Big Guy,' himself, Unk, but I could be wrong. :shrug:     I really don't want to see the thread closed because of religious arguments, but I think we're all OK with finding the true origin of the idea......it would be interesting to find out for sure. :)
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on November 20, 2015, 01:42:46 PM

This is, imho, a subject that can go down a whole bunch of rabbit holes. We dont have to go into each one, but if they are on the list anyone sparked to interest can make their own effort I suppose.

dont want a religious argument either. Just mentioning what came to mind, fwiw, so I will share what I found. I dont think this is the only place such things are mentioned, but I found what was on my mind in Leviticus 19. A chapter that starts in the NIV with the words-The Lord said to Moses. The related material is verse 19.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on November 20, 2015, 01:49:34 PM
There is a biblical reference to not mixing two kinds of seeds nor two kinds of material, not allowing two kinds of animals to breed in the bible.  Different versions word it about the same.  Try Leviticus 19:19 in the commonly used version in the US.

Unknown and I found the same thing.



Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: duxdawg on November 20, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
(I am aware this post is several months old. Working my way through this thread as time allows.)

I am happy DDT is gone.  Look at how much that has helped the comeback of the American Eagle.  I see more now than I ever did as a kid.  It was here in Michigan on Gull Island in Lake Michigan where they discovered the link between DDT and cracked eggs.
  That is a very well disproven myth. Yet still it persists. *sigh*   :doh:  PCBs and mercury harmed raptor eggs. Not to mention stress from human encroachment, indiscriminate killing, etc.

Funny how everyone forgets that the ban on DDT and the Endangered Species Act's protection of raptors (which were routinely shot on sight back in the day. Now we have wind farms to do that for us. But I digress.) began on the same year. (Or the ESA was enacted the year after the DDT ban, forget which.) Ten years before DDT went into production some areas were reporting raptor populations were declining rapidly. After twenty years of heavy DDT use, raptor populations were booming. Several species of birds (including raptors) in several studies were fed large amounts of DDT. The results? Thicker egg shells and higher hatch rates of healthy chicks. Funny how those things never get mentioned, hey?

Not to get too far into a touchy subject, but the discontinuation of the use of DDT has directly resulted in the deaths of more than 400 million people. Believing lies can have staggering consequences. Many assert that the enviro whacko's ban on DDT did far more harm to Africa than slavery. For the Statists (in this case the subset known as enviro whackos) it was all about control. Banning DDT had absolutely nothing to do with facts. How could it? DDT and its derivatives are utterly incapable of harming raptors in any way.

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C06/C06Links/www.altgreen.com.au/Chemicals/ddt.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/07/06/bald-eagle-ddt-myth-still-flying-high.html

http://www.gamosquito.org/resources/2006Meeting/JConlonDDT.pdf

http://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/

 
Quote
I also have concerns that some of these chemicals are what is hurting the honey bee but I am a believer in actual evidence not just innuendo. 
  Sadly there are a staggering number of issues honey bees are contending with. Life on Earth will radically change without them.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: duxdawg on November 20, 2015, 05:38:43 PM
Good topic y'all and really well handled. Felt like sitting around a campfire downing a few brews together. Thanks guys!

Growing up on a homestead we saved seeds. Each year planted mostly tried and true yet also tried at least one new variety of most crops. Getting tough to do that these days. Think too about bananas. The Gros Michel was the most popular variety until a fungus decimated it. Now there are concerns that the currently most grown variety, the Cavendish, may succumb to several diseases that are attacking it. Biodiversity is our friend.

I do not worry about selective breeding. I do worry about splicing genes from potatoes into beans, bacteria into carrots and such like. Beyond the Biblical reasons (which I support) there is history to consider. How well did introducing rabbits, red foxes, cane toads, etc work for Australia? How well did introducing smallpox to the American Indians work out? Disasters, each and every one. There is a tremendously long track record of organisms being introduced to new areas with catastrophic consequences. This should give us pause. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2016, 09:26:21 AM
THE LATEST NEWS: HOT OFF THE PRESS

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_158877.html
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: madmax on May 18, 2016, 11:07:01 AM
My brother works for the bad guy.  Monsanto.  Well that's eventually where his paycheck comes from.  I don't give a rat's azz if it's GMO or not.  I have eaten worse.  I do not support their gestapo tactics in seed.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Mannlicher on May 18, 2016, 11:14:36 AM
were it not for folks like Monsanto, half the world would have starved by now.  Technology makes today's farming possible.   Folks (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif) and moan about things they know little about, and offer no viable alternative.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 18, 2016, 11:43:19 AM
My brother works for the bad guy.  Monsanto.  Well that's eventually where his paycheck comes from.  I don't give a rat's azz if it's GMO or not.  I have eaten worse.  I do not support their gestapo tactics in seed.

I don't like their tactics either Max but I buy it because Roundup Ready alfalfa is the only way I can grow a weed free forage for our cows. 

were it not for folks like Monsanto, half the world would have starved by now.  Technology makes today's farming possible.   Folks (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif) and moan about things they know little about, and offer no viable alternative.


You hit the nail on the head.  The detractors never come up with who gets to eat and who gets to starve if GMO products are banned.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: madmax on May 18, 2016, 01:10:24 PM
Far be it for me to question farmers.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on May 18, 2016, 03:52:24 PM
I forgot to add something.  When I read the report that Wolfy posted on another site this morning while drinking coffee I was surprised at one inconsistency in it.  They say there is no evidence that crop yields are increasing because of GMO crops.  I find that puzzling.  When you plant a GMO crop that is resistant to insects you no longer have to spray for that insect and that insect doesn't reduce your yield for that particular crop.  If you use a Round Up ready crop seed you keep the weeds from competing with your crop.  Both of those tactics increase yields.

This is a well written report except for that inconsistency.  They do go on to say that GMO crops can actually help mankind in a later paragraph.  The reason is that we cut back on herbicides or pesticides when those problems are removed and less chemical goes into the system. 

Those folks who oppose GMO seeds will find things to criticize about the report as they always do.  I think most of the criticism will begin to fall of deaf ears.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2016, 05:08:21 PM
I have no knowledge of other GMO crops other than the two types type that I have planted and compared with conventional types.....those being corn and soybeans.  The first GMO seed we ever planted was soybeans and I'd read a LOT of things, pro & con, on them before we planted them for the first time.  We were about the last 'holdouts' around here to plant them......mainly because there is an unavoidable built-in 'yield drag' on the GMO vs. non-GMO soybean and we were reluctant to accept that.  I can't remember for sure, but I think that amounts to about 3-4% fewer bushels/acre when compared to a conventional, non-GMO soybean crop....definitely worth the penalty if you've ever 'walked' a field of beans! :pissed:

Corn yields from GMO seed actually improved on our farm.  Genetics for glyphosate-resistance were joined by genetic resistance for root worms, corn borers and other insects.  That meant not having to apply deadly carbamates (a known carcinogen) for root worm control......that stuff was DEADLY and a real pain to work with!   Far less herbicide and insecticide is needed in GMO crops.....something many people disregard when they rail against GMO crops.  I don't think they are aware of how much better that is for the environment, either. ???
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 01, 2016, 09:13:01 AM
The newest legislation on GMO labeling of the nation's food supply......

http://www.agweb.com/blog/the-truth-about-trade/gmo-labeling-compromise-legislation-is-the-best-and-cheapest-lawyer/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiT1RVelpUTXlOalJtWWpNNSIsInQiOiI5b2k5cjBheTdWMTljT1wvekoxbGE3YlpyTk15Sm94RmNKTllHOG8rUlFZSXdybGkwcGlEOU5rNVU2TXllZ0cyQjNKT0FlOW41ZnFsMnJyalRMcG42Rkp4MlNXUkw0UjdZWHdzU01wdFJPT2s9In0%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Quenchcrack on July 01, 2016, 11:08:53 AM
I am going to guess that mixing of seeds, fabrics and cattle was related tp Gods directive to Israel not to mix with the people already occupying the promised land. This was to keep them from adopting their religious practices that included burning babies. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 01, 2016, 01:07:25 PM
http://www.gmwatch.org/news/latest-news/16503

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2267255/gm_crops_are_driving_genocide_and_ecocide_keep_them_out_of_the_eu.html

https://www.grain.org/article/entries/4720-gmos-fooling-er-feeding-the-world-for-20-years

http://gmwatch.org/news/archive/2014/15618-biology-fortified-misleads-the-public-on-gmo-safety

http://www.cban.ca/Resources/Topics/Feeding-the-World/Will-GM-Crops-Feed-the-World   see the links

https://www.grain.org/article/entries/4929-hungry-for-land-small-farmers-feed-the-world-with-less-than-a-quarter-of-all-farmland
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 01, 2016, 01:29:51 PM
My brother works for the bad guy.  Monsanto.  Well that's eventually where his paycheck comes from.  I don't give a rat's azz if it's GMO or not.  I have eaten worse

.  I do not support their gestapo tactics in seed.

One can make many arguments for and aging GMO but food scarcity is not one of them.

Global food production has, on an annual basis, been sufficient to provide every living human with 1800 Cal/day of nutrition  (food) for decades. The issue is not the amount or quality but the distribution of food. None go hungry because there is not enough food but because it is denied them. For whatever reason, another story.

The rationale for GMO is economics. Who benefits and who bears the burden,  what the immediate and potential costs are is the discussion.

Simply because we can do something doesn't  ecessarily mean we should. A comment every parent is likely to have made ND one to keep in mind.




I don't like their tactics either Max but I buy it because Roundup Ready alfalfa is the only way I can grow a weed free forage for our cows. 

were it not for folks like Monsanto, half the world would have starved by now.  Technology makes today's farming possible.   Folks (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif) and moan about things they know little about, and offer no viable alternative.


You hit the nail on the head.  The detractors never come up with who gets to eat and who gets to starve if GMO products are banned.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 01, 2016, 02:12:27 PM
Here is a bit of information on the efforts of some Nobel Laureates to convince Greenpeace that their resistance to GMOs in general and golden rice in particular should be stopped.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/29/more-than-100-nobel-laureates-take-on-greenpeace-over-gmo-stance/?tid=pm_national_pop_b
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 06, 2016, 09:52:27 AM
More information from Lisa Lunz, the past chairwoman of the Nebraska Soybean Board and current board member of the U.S. Farmers and Ranchers Alliance.  Taken from the July 6th edition of the Omaha World Herald....

http://www.omaha.com/opinion/midlands-voices-safe-gmos-nurture-sustainable-farming/article_32639583-42d8-50e8-8b41-4ad06a3a940a.html?mode=jqm
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 06, 2016, 11:07:51 AM
More information from Lisa Lunz, the past chairwoman of the Nebraska Soybean Board and current board member of the U.S. Farmers and Ranchers Alliance.  Taken from the July 6th edition of the Omaha World Herald....

http://www.omaha.com/opinion/midlands-voices-safe-gmos-nurture-sustainable-farming/article_32639583-42d8-50e8-8b41-4ad06a3a940a.html?mode=jqm

The article references gmo soybeans eliminating trans fats. The process of hydrogenation that results in the production of trans fats does not occur in the plant. It is done to plant products during processing to retard spoilage and extend shelf life. The deleterious effects on human health are well researched.

While many consider no tillage environmentally beneficial that practice is not reliant on gmo materials and has been around for quite a while.

The benefits of gmo are economic. But as has been stated repeatedly global food production has long been sufficient to provide for all. It is distribution that remains the problem.
Whether gmo will change that aspect of hunger remains to be seen but since the primary advantage to gmo is economic the likely answer will be, no.
 
Cui Bono as the legal folks say.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 06, 2016, 11:40:35 AM
Your conclusions are your own to enjoy, I am only bringing news to the table. :shrug:     If an individual ever had to walk and hand-weed a field of pre-GMO soybeans in 90+ degree heat, it would add yet another consideration for the end-user to contemplate. :P

The previous article says nothing about hydrogenation.....i t deals with high oleic oils.

http://eating-made-easy.com/what-is-high-oleic-oil/
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 06, 2016, 09:12:03 PM
Your conclusions are your own to enjoy, I am only bringing news to the table. :shrug:     If an individual ever had to walk and hand-weed a field of pre-GMO soybeans in 90+ degree heat, it would add yet another consideration for the end-user to contemplate. :P

The previous article says nothing about hydrogenation.....i t deals with high oleic oils.

http://eating-made-easy.com/what-is-high-oleic-oil/

The article you initially referenced stated high oleic acid content soybeans reduced the need  for trans fats, a product of hydrogenation. Oleic acid and hydrogenated products are neither chemically nor biologically similar.

One might say that a newer pick up reduces the need for sail boats.

 The first paragraph is just fact. Just brining that news to the table. My conclusions are in the pickup boat thing.

Supporters of gmo can claim economic benefits. That may well be the case in some instances. That is a fair basis for evaluation it sense to me.

It is not an argument that plays well in many other places.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 07, 2016, 04:29:33 AM
None of that makes any sense to me.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 07, 2016, 06:45:54 AM
None of that makes any sense to me.

Understood. The science can be complicated to begin with and when folks publicly conflate terms in order to push a point facts sometimes are ignored.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Mannlicher on July 07, 2016, 07:27:38 AM
Something else to read on cancer, biotech, Monsanto, etc. from The Washington Post. ;)

http://wpo.st/SyRf0

an article against Monsanto in the WaPo?  Now THERE is credibility for ya.   laughing
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 07, 2016, 09:01:24 AM
None of that makes any sense to me.

Understood. The science can be complicated to begin with and when folks publicly conflate terms in order to push a point facts sometimes are ignored.

Is it possible to explain your point without resorting to arrogance and condescension? :shrug:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 07, 2016, 02:04:27 PM
None of that makes any sense to me.

Understood. The science can be complicated to begin with and when folks publicly conflate terms in order to push a point facts sometimes are ignored.

Is it possible to explain your point without resorting to arrogance and condescension? :shrug:

I read again what I posted. If you find a simple explanation about an error of fact as "resorting to arrogance and condescension" that is unfortunate but hardly my intention and certainly not my responsibility.

True the explanation was couched in layman terms. Is it that your knowledge of biochemistry is extensive enough to make a simple explanation seem "condescsnding"? Or is it "arrogance" to point out simple error? Or is it something else altogther?

But in the end it changes nothing. Facts are simply well, facts. The conclusion, as you said, your own to enjoy.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 07, 2016, 04:31:21 PM
DELETED. :-X      I'm bigger than this!  O:-) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: MnSportsman on July 07, 2016, 05:42:25 PM
DELETED. :-X      I'm bigger than this!  O:-) :thumbsup:


"I" read it... ;)


  Good call. Don't waste time nor effort when there would be no "positive result" for "anyone".
;)


(I am trying to be a "nice & civil fella", or I would have chimed in earlier with a response. I just followed the Italics sentence advice above... LOL  ;) )
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 07, 2016, 05:57:47 PM
DELETED. :-X      I'm bigger than this!  O:-) :thumbsup:


"I" read it... ;)


  Good call. Don't waste time nor effort when there would be no "positive result" for "anyone".
;)


(I am trying to be a "nice & civil fella", or I would have chimed in earlier with a response. I just followed the Italics sentence advice above... LOL  ;) )
You are indeed a prince among men, JB!  :cheers:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: crashdive123 on July 08, 2016, 07:17:12 PM
A bit off topic, but not really.  I have no problem with GMO's.  In fact I am quite in favor of them and the problems that they solve.  I also believe that there should be accurate labeling so that people can make educated and informed choices.  There!  Problem solved.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 08, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
A bit off topic, but not really.  I have no problem with GMO's.  In fact I am quite in favor of them and the problems that they solve.  I also believe that there should be accurate labeling so that people can make educated and informed choices.  There!  Problem solved.

Agree. Well said
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 08, 2016, 07:32:25 PM
If you watch the news, you are probably aware that it's in the works.  8)

http://eating-made-easy.com/what-is-high-oleic-oil/
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 08, 2016, 09:53:26 PM
I didn't have a winning success with my heirloom corn this year. Probably could have watered rather than waiting on rain, and a little BT would have limited the bug's portion.  I didn't do anything to aid pollination either.

I'm thinking I might try to grow another crop if I can find a short season variety at the seed store, then see how many seeds  don't bake in hot summer soil.

So if golden rice actually works, how many bowls can one eat before the vitamin A builds up in the body to toxic levels? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, I'd rather have regular rice.

In all the reading I don't recall seeing any percentages for what part of GM crops go to animal feed/ human food/ other uses. I don't like round up in my meat. :banana:

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 09, 2016, 08:20:41 AM
If you watch the news, you are probably aware that it's in the works.  8)

http://eating-made-easy.com/what-is-high-oleic-oil/

Thanks for the link. There's some reasonable nutritional info which is always welcome. In the comments some pointed out inconsistencies in the author's statements. I found an article that presented another run down albeit from a different perspective in a piece from the Monterey Weekly. No link, no computer just phone.

I was not being cheeky with the science is confusing comment. It is. Recall vitamins were not identified until the 1930s - even though by then Limeys was already a well known reference. Medical knowledge has not, on average, doubled every decade or so because we know too much.

The core issue however, remains the same - profit. Nutritional concerns take a back seat if even on the bus to begin with.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on July 09, 2016, 10:57:40 AM

  I'd like to suggest that perhaps this thread has run it's course,  maybe we could try to get back to discussing Bushcrafty foods, Grilling, and recipes as it was intended,  While I understand that feelings about GMO's run hot for and against,  the fact is that they are here to stay for the foreseeable future,  and any opinion we may have as individuals is not going to change a thing.
 As  far as what, where, how, and when one grows his/her corn I think has a place in the homesteading section, which is better I think than here tying up the top spot in the food, cooking, and recipes section.

 Just saying.        :shrug:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 09, 2016, 11:09:46 AM
Well, what can I say, other than I disagree? :duel:   From the thread count numbers, many of us are interested in this subject and will continue to be.  As long as it remains civil (amazingly it has :thumbsup: ) then I see no reason to close it.  News and updates on the safety, benefits, pros & cons, etc. will be with us always......it's good to keep up with what's at the cutting edge.  If you don't like reading about it, don't. :cheers:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on July 09, 2016, 11:49:58 AM
I was speaking to something Wolfy said earlier about - have you tried it? ( farming, market gardening, making a profit through Agriculture)

Yes, just a little, but not to make money, only to save some spending and guarantee what's in it and on it(food)
The point in mentioning my corn was to say, it is not easy, often disappointing. When faced with hard decisions that involve ones financial security, survival, it's not hard to make a choice that keeps you going a while longer.

That's the situation being presented more often than not, one of survival, desperation. we must make these decisions pro GMO, to save ourselves, and the world. Individual small farmers are pressured to fall in line or they may not be competitive, consumers must fall in line or be accused of denying the poor their food.

Not long ago, when our butts were more clearly under threat and the nation needed to unite under a common cause everyone was encouraged to grow their own food, or to grow as much as they could, anywhere they could. It should be pretty obvious to anyone if quality and quantity of diet was the primary concern, then it would be suggested to go about that in a completely different fashion than what is promoted by Pro GMO
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Moe M. on July 09, 2016, 02:16:16 PM
Well, what can I say, other than I disagree? :duel:   From the thread count numbers, many of us are interested in this subject and will continue to be.  As long as it remains civil (amazingly it has :thumbsup: ) then I see no reason to close it.  News and updates on the safety, benefits, pros & cons, etc. will be with us always......it's good to keep up with what's at the cutting edge.  If you don't like reading about it, don't. :cheers:

  It may have sounded like that's what I suggested old pard,  but it's not what I meant,  I was thinking that perhaps it may be better suited as a gardening thread in the homestead section,  but hey, what do I know,  I'm into cooking, eating, and bushcrafting,  not growing.
                                                          :shrug:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: NewEnglandBushcraft on July 09, 2016, 03:26:10 PM
Oh boy.....talk about treading a thin line! But this seems like a civil-enough conversation, so I'll throw in my two pence to the pot:

I'll start with something slightly off-topic, but it nevertheless concerns our food consumption and GMOs (especially since much of the commercial food we ingest is genetically-modified).

I saw this mentioned in a National Geographic catalog from March of this eyar last year, discussing how much edible food goes to waste. It was estimated that about 1/3 of all the food produced and grown in the world goes to waste, a figure of around 2.9 trillion pounds. Some of this has to do with supermarkets only choosing to sell the most visually appealing produce, because (they think) that's what the people want. I'll give another figure - about 6 billion pounds of produce aren't harvested or sold because they aren't up to the aesthetic standards of distributors, even though they are completely edible.

It is calculated that by 2050 there will be a world population of over 9 billion people, and already there's a dominant consensus to simply increase large-scale agriculture; yet this kind of food production is responsible for about 70 percent of the Earth's freshwater withdrawals, and 80 percent of tropical and sub-tropical deforestation. In my mind GMOs will not "save the future" any more than organic farming will. I think the main problem is food waste. If we keep increasing large-scale farming, we will eventually deplete precious natural resources, turning the world into a desert of cleared fields where Nature is not allowed to restore balance to the environment. Another problem is the depletion of soil nutrients due to single-crop farming.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 09, 2016, 06:08:02 PM
The Green Revolution addressed that starting in the 1920's.  Critics now point out that the number of people who will eventually starve has increased dramatically.

Here is a Wikipedia version of the events: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

Your concern about the depletion of the soil begs the question "what is the alternative?"  Who gets to decide who starves and who lives?

With your scenario regarding food waste, if it were eliminated, then mankind would buy some time but if you are right about the depletion of the earth then eventually it really doesn't matter.   
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 09, 2016, 06:57:14 PM
If you really want some sobering figures, do some searches on how much agricultural land is being lost to industrialization and urbanization each year.....not only here, but worldwide.  :shocked:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: NewEnglandBushcraft on July 09, 2016, 08:48:51 PM
The Green Revolution addressed that starting in the 1920's.  Critics now point out that the number of people who will eventually starve has increased dramatically.

Here is a Wikipedia version of the events: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

Your concern about the depletion of the soil begs the question "what is the alternative?"  Who gets to decide who starves and who lives?

With your scenario regarding food waste, if it were eliminated, then mankind would buy some time but if you are right about the depletion of the earth then eventually it really doesn't matter.
In short, the Earth cannot support this much human population. Even if we did drastically change our ways to be more ecologically sound, you are right - it would then only be a matter of time.

Call me "crazy", but I think there will be a very drastic event that will affect the whole planet, and I believe it will occur within the next 50 years. And if my suspicions are correct, then our so-called "advancements" and technologies will be our downfall. But that's a topic for another discussion.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 09, 2016, 08:51:50 PM
Take a tip from me, NEB......you're not cut out to be a farmer. :lol:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 09, 2016, 09:18:32 PM
NEB, I agree something will happen.  Maybe natural causes maybe man made.  When is anybody's guess. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: vallehombre on July 09, 2016, 09:41:28 PM
The Green Revolution addressed that starting in the 1920's.  Critics now point out that the number of people who will eventually starve has increased dramatically.

Here is a Wikipedia version of the events: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

Your concern about the depletion of the soil begs the question "what is the alternative?"  Who gets to decide who starves and who lives?

With your scenario regarding food waste, if it were eliminated, then mankind would buy some time but if you are right about the depletion of the earth then eventually it really doesn't matter.
In short, the Earth cannot support this much human population. Even if we did drastically change our ways to be more ecologically sound, you are right - it would then only be a matter of time.

Call me "crazy", but I think there will be a very drastic event that will affect the whole planet, and I believe it will occur within the next 50 years. And if my suspicions are correct, then our so-called "advancements" and technologies will be our downfall. But that's a topic for another discussion.

Good thoughts. Well said. Thanks for them
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 15, 2016, 08:54:28 AM
The latest in GMO labeling.....

http://www.agweb.com/article/house-approves-gmo-food-labeling-law-naa-alison-rice/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWXpJeE1UYzBaalk1WTJNMCIsInQiOiJhSUR6WURYSXpVM2d4bDdTNzJOMGxVTTFlSEZjQ0IyN0xkZVRmMzRQZkJYMWVOeUh5cU9iV1hIQnhscjBaNEpsNUtNWUpaK0pMcFNVRXBMS2UyVEZMNnIyQ0s3T2VkNVNxMWZsajJkNU1cL2c9In0%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 15, 2016, 09:23:30 AM
More yet....

http://www.agweb.com/article/gene-edited-canola-oil-arrives-without-gmo-style-shopper-outrage-blmg/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTUdKbE9EUXdNbUk0TmpWaSIsInQiOiJpNVZ5YW1oTThtamxpeHBOOGt3c0ViQW9LK1wvbWlFdkdRTHVJSXh3emxBWDlTV2pIZlFjSTlXTStVdjY5Y1wvR2xvUStXRk4wbWswekkrVzVKQVpaVUhVZmtFN0dpeUx5XC8wb203bG1LcTIrUT0ifQ%3D%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 15, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
8,000 acres of edited canola isn't much in the scheme of things.  From all reports GMO products are safe but we used to believe in witches not that long ago.

Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 15, 2016, 05:59:09 PM
......and continue to, apparently. :shrug:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 15, 2016, 10:11:21 PM
Yes, some folks still do.  A few of them might reside here too.   :-X
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on July 18, 2016, 05:08:11 PM
Yes, some folks still do.  A few of them might reside here too.   :-X

I know witches are real, I lived with one for eight years. Lol
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 18, 2016, 05:14:01 PM
 :rofl: :hail:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 18, 2016, 05:36:06 PM
Yes, some folks still do.  A few of them might reside here too.   :-X

I know witches are real, I lived with one for eight years. Lol

I don't mean to laugh but that is funny.  Her car could be called Broomstick 1 huh?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on August 04, 2016, 09:18:29 AM
GMOs and their effect on greenhouse gasses and world grain markets.....

http://www.agweb.com/article/global-gmo-ban-might-not-make-environmentalists-as-happy-as-they-think-naa-anna-lisa-laca/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWkRBd05UUTVZemsxWXpSayIsInQiOiJwT3BFRVU2Vzk3TjUwajFQU2pHQ2ZKNlhZYkM1bERtZ0p2N2RvNnpcL3BlaFM3YXpGWGF1bDM5aFJzY0lCXC94XC9LQklEemNvZkRNU29sUVRhcjVleEhhQjlOanJzSnR3c016SzNtTTVLenVjMD0ifQ%3D%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: imnukensc on September 07, 2016, 08:29:20 AM
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p632/imnukensc/Corn_zpszfpugfuq.jpg)

I'll take the GMO corn with a side of pesticide, please.  And couldja throw a little Sevin dust on them green beans?  Thanks!
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on September 07, 2016, 01:45:16 PM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Unknown on September 08, 2016, 02:59:22 AM
(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p632/imnukensc/Corn_zpszfpugfuq.jpg)

I'll take the GMO corn with a side of pesticide, please.  And couldja throw a little Sevin dust on them green beans?  Thanks!

A good plan for you.

Me, I will plant 4X the corn I need. You can raise children with micro encephalopathy, 4 X less brain than needed. I'm sure it will work out in the end as worms demand equal access to intelligence since there is less distance to cross
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: imnukensc on September 08, 2016, 06:21:32 AM
A good plan for you.

Me, I will plant 4X the corn I need. You can raise children with micro encephalopathy, 4 X less brain than needed. I'm sure it will work out in the end as worms demand equal access to intelligence since there is less distance to cross

Please post some pics of your garden!  I'd love to see them.  Would you feel like a big, old turd if I told you I had a child with microcephaly?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on October 19, 2016, 05:28:08 AM
Milk and GMOs.......

http://www.milkbusiness.com/blog/gmo-debate-about-consumers-not-sustainability?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTUdGa1pXSmhPVFUyWXpZMiIsInQiOiJ2TnVwZTc2c3pCOGs0NGJGaEUwYkpSQWhhZlBcL29PQzFybmdWcFNiSXUyd0c2YUsrTHFNbGtRQ1Rsd2pBWEhKenFPNE10Q3gxWkF2ck5zRlpzM3RYNzltZHhBc2FXbWt5WU5xWnF1YUcwZlk9In0%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on October 19, 2016, 11:50:48 AM
To be honest, I am more concerned about antibiotic use than GMO.

We are running out of effective human antibiotics as a result of bacteria developing resistance. Widespread use of antibiotics in livestock could be contributing. Needs more research.

As for the GMO stuff, ultimately it is all the same organic compounds even if they are arranged differently. I don't have a problem with eating GMO corn, for example.

We do need to find a way to stop killing off honey bees. If we can accomplish that through GMO versus pesticides, that might be a better solution.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: NewEnglandBushcraft on October 19, 2016, 06:22:27 PM
With GMOs, I do wish every state had mandatory labelling so that people at least know if the food they're eating has GMOs in it or not. Personally, I prefer organic whenever I can get it, though I do not know enough about GMOs to completely condemn them. But for now, I'm a skeptic.

I think some people get confused between genetic engineering and cross-hybridization. They are not exactly the same. Corn, for instance, is technically a grass and evolved through centuries of hybridization (controlled by humans) to bear more fruit. And oftentimes, species will naturally hybridize with each other on their own...and again, I allude to grasses because they are our most adaptable and arguably the most successful plants in the world. Genetic engineering of corn takes this evolution to the next level (in an advanced, Star Trek, mad-scientist-like level) by splicing in genetics from other plants and animals to give the corn traits such as resistance to chemical pesticide as well as some common insect pests. To me, that's 'freakin crazy and scary to think that, in theory, we can produce almost anything we want in a lab.

I don't condemn anyone for eating or choosing to eat GMO foods, but I often wonder in trepidation what the next laboratory invention will be.


As for the antibiotics, I think we're screwing ourselves in that regard. All we're doing is creating more and more antibiotic-resistant super-bugs. MRSA is bad enough, do we really need legions of other nightmarish bacteria to cause us more problems?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on October 28, 2016, 01:05:22 AM
From a biology standpoint, I would need compelling proof that gene editing is somehow producing something that could never occur in nature.

For example, if you look at how different traits occur in living organisms, it is through natural mutations brought about by things like cosmic rays, totally random mutations, etc.

Some mutations are favorable and the organism lives on and thrives. Others are unfavorable and don't get passed on to the next generation.

If a genetically modified organism's specific mutations could conceivably have occurred through natural mutations over a long time and with a lot of luck, I don't see how that is fundamentally different than skipping tens of thousands of years of pure dumb luck by making the changes happen instantly through technology.

But, as I said before, if it can be proven that these changes could never occur naturally, then I might be opposed to GMO food.

I ate a pack of ramen noodles a couple of days ago that had a label saying it contains GMO products. I don't feel any different.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on November 01, 2016, 01:28:10 PM
THE NEW GMO POTATO HAS ARRIVED....

http://www.agweb.com/article/us-approves-2-types-of-genetically-engineered-potatoes--naa-associated-press/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldNNU9UTTNOalkxTmpNeCIsInQiOiJQY0Exb0lGeXE5ZGRQZGgxWlFnMGNQbWZtd3FDa054Mnh5UlV3b0ptaTlIcW00bXZ3Zm5tdzhQUXR1bHN4SHpiZnc4NzJ4VitIRlVVNkhoQzROaDZHZkhFUXFRQ29lOHB4b2sxd3BOUEZkQT0ifQ%3D%3D
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on November 02, 2016, 12:59:21 AM
THE NEW GMO POTATO HAS ARRIVED....

http://www.agweb.com/article/us-approves-2-types-of-genetically-engineered-potatoes--naa-associated-press/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldNNU9UTTNOalkxTmpNeCIsInQiOiJQY0Exb0lGeXE5ZGRQZGgxWlFnMGNQbWZtd3FDa054Mnh5UlV3b0ptaTlIcW00bXZ3Zm5tdzhQUXR1bHN4SHpiZnc4NzJ4VitIRlVVNkhoQzROaDZHZkhFUXFRQ29lOHB4b2sxd3BOUEZkQT0ifQ%3D%3D

I just skimmed the article, but it did mention that all of the genes came from potatoes. I wouldn't hesitate to add them to a pot of beef stew.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Orbean on July 07, 2017, 10:39:02 PM
I am beginning to warm up to GMO's; have been reading up, trying to learn more. Recently found out the herbicides round up replaced were on the order of ten times more toxic. Still freaked out and concerned about cross species genetics and believe we need to tread very carefully.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: PetrifiedWood on July 07, 2017, 10:54:24 PM
Yeah, it is hard to know what to believe. The real question is whether the scientists developing this stuff feed it to their families.

I was a little surprised to see the new labeling on some very common food products.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: hayshaker on July 08, 2017, 05:35:18 PM
wow is this  a political thread.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on July 08, 2017, 05:46:05 PM
wow is this  a political thread.
It's a very controversial subject with strong feelings on all sides, but the only reason it has survived 4 pages of discussion (175 posts) is because we've managed to keep the politics completely out of it.....speaks pretty highly of the forum members we have here at B&B! :hail:
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: hayshaker on July 08, 2017, 07:30:47 PM
I have corn this year 15'ft outside my window last yr beans.
we cash rent land and have family who actively farm.
as for me my opinion is one day this whole biotech deal
will bite us all on the kiester in the worst way.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on July 08, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
... and you may be right or you may be wrong.  At that is all we have to say on the matter. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: hayshaker on July 09, 2017, 05:25:08 AM
I hope am wrong cause God help us if that day comes.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wolfy on June 21, 2019, 11:07:11 AM
Talk about evolution! :popcorn:

https://curiosity.com/topics/this-is-what-fruits-and-vegetables-looked-like-before-humans-intervened-curiosity/
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on June 21, 2019, 03:35:57 PM
Interesting.  I knew about the corn, had not seen the painting of the watermelon before. 

In my early days working in New Mexico we found old hearths in the canyons where corncobs were still buried in the debris accumulated in the overhangs from nomadic camps.  This was both along the Rio Grande river and in tributaries to that river in the northern part of the state.  They were all very small, about 3" to 4" long, and about 3/4' in diameter.  The field superintendent said they were from the time of the Cliff Dwellers about 1200 AD.  I encountered these same sized cobs in the southern Colorado canyons over in the eastern part of the area right along the Oklahoma border. 

I always assumed that the cobs were what was left after they scraped the corn off to dry or cook and they had no useful purpose in these remote camps. 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Phaedrus on August 21, 2019, 05:44:08 PM
My problem isn't so much genetic modification per se, it's what the modifications are for- mostly to make them Roundup resistant.  Roundup is incredibly toxic not only to other weeds but to humans.  I'm not a farmer so I can't say this from experience but my understanding is that weed killers and insecticides really don't improve yield all that much.  Certainly though they're making ag chem companies a lot of money.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Pete Bog on August 21, 2019, 09:57:51 PM
I used to have lots of frogs croaking in the evening and big leopard frogs in the yard. This year? Almost nonexistent.
I used to have lots of salamanders. In the yard and on the roads. This year? One.
I used to have a variety of butterflies and a lot of monarchs. This year? A few Monarchs and very very few others.
I used to have a lot of the big fuzzy bumble bees. This year? I really miss 'em.
I used to have a lot of barn swallows. To the point of being pesty. This year? Three nesting pair.
I'm not an academic. I don't get to publish hard earned scientific findings in some fancy publication or submit a paper to some government agency that will promptly misplace it. But - - - - - Something has changed in the past 10 years, and it's concerning. Where do I point an accusing finger?
I read something many years ago about a civilization brought to its knees by the use of lead in their utensils for food preparation and serving. I keep thinking we may repeat history. Not with lead, but with something else deemed "Safe". Either through ignorance or corporate greed, we may be doomed.  :soap:

What have your observations or perceptions been in the past decade? Everything good? Changing?
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on August 22, 2019, 12:19:25 PM
My problem isn't so much genetic modification per se, it's what the modifications are for- mostly to make them Roundup resistant.  Roundup is incredibly toxic not only to other weeds but to humans.  I'm not a farmer so I can't say this from experience but my understanding is that weed killers and insecticides really don't improve yield all that much.  Certainly though they're making ag chem companies a lot of money.

Try harvesting  any grain crop or alfalfa field full of canada thistle and then tell us about yield.  Any plant that competes with another plant for ground area reduces the yield of both of them.  Try keeping leafy spurge and hoary cress out of pastures and rangeland without pesticides and lets us know how that goes for you.

Got a source on how toxic Roundup is?  One backed by sound scientific testing?  It is listed in Europe as a probable carcinogen but they cannot prove it.  A jury awards a fellow with cancer who worked around Roundup chemical and what did they use for proof that it was the cause?  They don't say.    Here is a link from WebMd who doesn't appear to have an axe to grind and one from an unknown (to me) party who makes a couple of statements that should be easy to prove or disprove.  In fairness I can find an equal number of sites that say it is bad stuff but none provide any scientific data.

https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20150407/glyphosate-pesticide-probable-carcinogen#1

https://www.yourdoctorsorders.com/2015/03/roundup-sort-of-a-carcinogen/

It would be nice if we lived in a world that weeds didn't exist but we don't. 

 
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on August 22, 2019, 12:32:52 PM

What have your observations or perceptions been in the past decade? Everything good? Changing?

As far as insects go we still have an abundance of them.  Grasshoppers are on the rise this year as they were five years ago.  A abnormally wet year delayed them but they are doing well at the moment.  The only insect I can say has disappeared from the fields is fireflies.  Twenty years ago we had a few, have not seen any for fifteen years.  Rabbits are on the increase and so are the predators that eat them.  More owls and other raptors.  Coyotes are stable, racoons are increasing, and deer are rebounding from the diseases that laid them low a couple of years back.  It was from a gnat that caused hemorrhagic fever.

Most everything else is the same.  Frogs have never been in my reservoir but I think it is because the bass used to eat them all.  I see the same flowers like cone flowers, sunflowers, Indian Paint brush, and so forth. 

The only bird we don't see anymore is the Cedar Waxwings which come through this area but we don't have the habitat they prefer although fifteen years ago we would see a few.  The other birds are present, some in larger numbers and some down a bit.  Red Wing Blackbirds don't seem as numerous in the cattail marsh but Blue Jays and Robins are everywhere.  Towhees too.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: Phaedrus on August 24, 2019, 01:57:21 AM
My problem isn't so much genetic modification per se, it's what the modifications are for- mostly to make them Roundup resistant.  Roundup is incredibly toxic not only to other weeds but to humans.  I'm not a farmer so I can't say this from experience but my understanding is that weed killers and insecticides really don't improve yield all that much.  Certainly though they're making ag chem companies a lot of money.

Try harvesting  any grain crop or alfalfa field full of canada thistle and then tell us about yield.  Any plant that competes with another plant for ground area reduces the yield of both of them.  Try keeping leafy spurge and hoary cress out of pastures and rangeland without pesticides and lets us know how that goes for you.

Got a source on how toxic Roundup is?  One backed by sound scientific testing?  It is listed in Europe as a probable carcinogen but they cannot prove it.  A jury awards a fellow with cancer who worked around Roundup chemical and what did they use for proof that it was the cause?  They don't say.    Here is a link from WebMd who doesn't appear to have an axe to grind and one from an unknown (to me) party who makes a couple of statements that should be easy to prove or disprove.  In fairness I can find an equal number of sites that say it is bad stuff but none provide any scientific data.

https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20150407/glyphosate-pesticide-probable-carcinogen#1

https://www.yourdoctorsorders.com/2015/03/roundup-sort-of-a-carcinogen/

It would be nice if we lived in a world that weeds didn't exist but we don't. 

 

I'm not gonna try to harvest anything!  I'm no farmer, I could kill a plastic plant! :lol:  Eat all the glyphosate you want!  You have access to the same information I do.  I'm just going on the word of a doctor and a few scientists, and I have no more proof than the jury did that awarded the dude the money.  If you're genuinely interested in glyphosate there's a lot of reading material.  I suppose it comes down to a philosophy of risk; do you want avoid something with a preponderance of evidence saying it's harmful and minimize your risk or will you keep eating it til there's a smoking gun?  It's possible to avoid the stuff so as long as consumers have the information that's the important thing IMO.

It would nice to live in a world where we erred on the side of caution when approving chemicals used in food production but we don't.
Title: Re: PROS & CONS OF BIOTECH & GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS
Post by: wsdstan on August 24, 2019, 08:53:12 AM

It would nice to live in a world where we erred on the side of caution when approving chemicals used in food production but we don't.

Well a lot of chemicals have been banned over the years from further use in the USA.  There are several agencies who approve chemicals used in various aspects of agriculture the EPA being one of them.  Whether they are competent or not is a another subject. 

Here is a link to what has been banned over the years:

https://azchemistry.com/how-many-toxic-chemicals-are-banned-in-the-united-states