Blades and Bushlore

General Discussion => Food and Cooking => Topic started by: Quenchcrack on April 26, 2017, 07:45:31 PM

Title: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on April 26, 2017, 07:45:31 PM
A good explanation of the differences.

https://historiccookery.com/2016/05/30/bake-kettle-vs-dutch-oven/
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on April 27, 2017, 05:31:13 AM
OK.  I'll accept that my Dutch Ovens were called Bake Kettlles.   Impressive research.  We all owe the people that simply for the love of historical accuracy dig and dig for these kind of things.

But I'll still call mine Dutch ovens.  Except maybe at 'vous'.  Just to avoid the awkward and sometimes futile (or raised eyebrows) explaining it to people who have only seen "Bake kettles" in BassProShops.

It's like when my Grandma was alive and we were at a family get together.  After a few snorts she would declare she was having a gay time.  Us kids would laugh.   She didn't really get it.  She also called the old odd guy down the street "queer".  As in odd. 

Thanks for the education on the cookware.  I'll show off my knowledge at my next rendezvous.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Unknown on April 27, 2017, 08:43:31 AM
The last comment details an 1850 source calling a DO, a DO.(?)  it is an interesting article, but like a good Dutch Oven cobbler leaves you wanting a little bit more info.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on April 27, 2017, 12:05:57 PM
My question is always the same:  How do you know your sources were correct and accurate?  What if they picked up the wrong term somewhere and perpetuated it in print?  Damned thread counters.  I will call mine a Cast Iron Jimifribitz.  Or maybe a Hoodikai.  Or a big heavy iron thing. 
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on April 27, 2017, 12:24:03 PM
LOL
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Unknown on April 27, 2017, 05:57:54 PM
My question is always the same:  How do you know your sources were correct and accurate?  What if they picked up the wrong term somewhere and perpetuated it in print?  Damned thread counters.  I will call mine a Cast Iron Jimifribitz.  Or maybe a Hoodikai.  Or a big heavy iron thing.

They found a great cache of lost axes in the old well(s) around colonial Williamsburg. Then they had to decide if it made a good representation of period axes, or simply those types preferred by the clumsy
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on April 27, 2017, 07:31:03 PM
ROFLMAO!
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on April 29, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
This thread reminds me a lot of the thread that PW started sometime back on the different terminologies involving the use of firesteels/ferro rods and what those words mean to different individuals.  I see reference to the term 'bake kettle' a lot in old journals and books from the Colonial era and the years following......up even to the period of the westward expansion via the Mormon and Oregon trails. 

Something seems to have changed about the time of the cattle drives out of Texas and the Civil War era.  Then is when I started noticing printed references to the three-legged iron kettle changing from 'bake kettle' to 'Dutch oven'......SOMEBODY started the confusion, but I really don't know and can't pinpoint the who, when or why of of it all, either.   As far as I know, the cast iron, 3-legged skillet with the long side-handle instead of a bail-type handle has always been called a 'spider,' but I see references to tri-legged fireplace 'trivets' being referred to as 'spiders,' also. :P

For me, the tinned sheet-iron reflector-type baker that most of us refer to today as a 'reflector oven' was first referred to as a 'Dutch oven' by some older ladies that were in command of the big walk-in type fireplace at the reconstructed Fort Atkinson (1819-1827) just north of Omaha, NEBRASKA.  At the site that Lewis & Clark recommended as an ideal spot for a fort for negotiating with indigenous Missouri River Indian tribes, it was the first fort west of the Mississippi River.  Those ladies that were reenacting the laundresses, kitchen workers, cooks, bakers, etc. we're VERY well-versed in the terminology of the era, so at that time at least, those tin baking utensils were still being called Dutch ovens. 

Who knows who screwed it all up......maybe the great, great, great, great grandfather of the same dumbass who started calling ferro-rods,  'firesteels.'  :rofl:

EDIT: mistyped word :P
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: PetrifiedWood on April 29, 2017, 06:17:33 PM
OK.  I'll accept that my Dutch Ovens were called Bake Kettlles.   Impressive research.  We all owe the people that simply for the love of historical accuracy dig and dig for these kind of things.

But I'll still call mine Dutch ovens.  Except maybe at 'vous'.  Just to avoid the awkward and sometimes futile (or raised eyebrows) explaining it to people who have only seen "Bake kettles" in BassProShops.

It's like when my Grandma was alive and we were at a family get together.  After a few snorts she would declare she was having a gay time.  Us kids would laugh.   She didn't really get it.  She also called the old odd guy down the street "queer".  As in odd. 

Thanks for the education on the cookware.  I'll show off my knowledge at my next rendezvous.

Well said.

Language evolves over time. Sedans and coupes meant different things than they do now.

I think we should go with the common parlance on this one.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: PetrifiedWood on April 29, 2017, 06:23:41 PM
This thread reminds me a lot of the thread that PW started sometime back on the different terminologies involving the use of firesteels/ferro rods and what those words mean to different individuals.  I see reference to the term 'bake kettle' a lot in old journals and books from the Colonial era and the years following......up even to the period of the westward expansion via the Mormon and Oregon trails. 

Something seems to have changed about the time of the cattle drives out of Texas and the Civil War era.  Then is when I started noticing printed references to the three-legged iron kettle changing from 'bake kettle' to 'Dutch oven'......SOMEBODY started the confusion, but I really don't know and can't pinpoint the who, when or why of of it all, either.   As far as I know, the cast iron, 3-legged skillet with the long side-handle instead of a bail-type handle has always been called a 'spider,' but I see references to tri-legged fireplace 'trivets' being referred to as 'spiders,' also. :P

For me, the tinned sheet-iron reflector-type baker that most of us refer to today as a 'reflector oven' was first referred to as a 'Dutch oven' by some older ladies that were in command of the big walk-in type fireplace at the reconstructed Fort Atkinson (1819-1827) just north of Omaha, NEBRASKA.  At the site that Lewis & Clark recommended as an ideal spot for a fort for negotiating with indigenous Missouri River Indian tribes, it was the first fort west of the Mississippi River.  Those ladies that were reenacting the laundresses, kitchen workers, cooks, bakers, etc. we're VERY well-versed in the terminology of the era, so at that time at least, those tin baking utensils were still being called Dutch ovens. 

Who knows who screwed it all up......maybe the great, great, great, great grandfather of the same dumbass who started calling ferro-rods,  'firesteels.'  :rofl:

EDIT: mistyped word :P

I've heard of trivets referred to as spiders as well. Also, I've hear the term used for a lid stand for what we have been calling a "Dutch Oven".
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on April 29, 2017, 07:09:17 PM
All the folks who teach English tell us that languages evolve.  There was Olde English, Middle English, Modern English, and American English. Terms change too.  Except if you do historical interpretation.  In that case, you must research every variation and nuance to determinewhat was said hundreds of years ago.  Well, if they didn't write it down, maybe it ain't that damned important.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Orbean on April 29, 2017, 08:56:53 PM
When my dutch oven or bake kettle is full of green chili stew it calls me.  :drool:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on April 30, 2017, 08:51:35 AM
Ok.  What does it call you?  I wouldn't take no sass from a big mouth kettle. ;D
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on April 30, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
Like the Pilsbury Dough Boy, my 'bake kettle' ;) always says, "Nothing says lovin' like something from the oven!"  8)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fe/c1/b3/fec1b36fd699d65fc4abb2e70391e9d2.jpg
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 06, 2017, 09:11:30 AM
I was discussing this thread with Heather this morning and in doing so, ran into this discussion on the origins of the 'bake kettle /Dutch oven' terminologies.  The discussion after the original posting is quite good and I thought maybe some of the more obsessive-compulsive among us might enjoy it.....

https://www.chowhound.com/post/origin-form-dutch-oven-colonial-cookware-1022499?page=4
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on May 06, 2017, 11:59:33 AM
Whatever you call them,  you know you're hooked when you have a perfectly good oven, stove, toaster, and microwave inside and you're sitting outside in FL's 97 degree heat rotating a DO dripping sweat and slapping skeeters for whatever goodness will emerge from the iron.

Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 06, 2017, 12:15:10 PM
Oh, so true.....invariably, I get requests from people and groups of people to "do a Dutch oven meal" during the hottest and most humid time of the year.  Right now and in the Fall of the year is when it is most comfortable for the campfire cooks among we NEBRASKANS! :stir:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 06, 2017, 02:09:48 PM
Call it whatever you want, just don't call me late for supper/dinner/lunch!
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on May 18, 2017, 06:18:32 AM
I was discussing this thread with Heather this morning and in doing so, ran into this discussion on the origins of the 'bake kettle /Dutch oven' terminologies.  The discussion after the original posting is quite good and I thought maybe some of the more obsessive-compulsive among us might enjoy it.....

https://www.chowhound.com/post/origin-form-dutch-oven-colonial-cookware-1022499?page=4

  Thanks Wolfy,  I was trying to think of a descriptive that would fit what I wanted to say and be subtle enough not to sound mean.
  I understand that accuracy is important on some levels,  but I question that it's necessary all the time,  if you're writing a how to book, or a history book it's one thing,  other times not so much,  one thing I always hated at the 'Vous was damned thread counters,  I believe that more newbies were discouraged away from the 'Vous by thread counters than anything else.
  Dutch Oven works for me.   
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on May 18, 2017, 06:48:54 AM
I think a lot of 'vous veterans forget how utterly overwhelming the first couple 'vous are.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2017, 09:19:35 AM
I was discussing this thread with Heather this morning and in doing so, ran into this discussion on the origins of the 'bake kettle /Dutch oven' terminologies.  The discussion after the original posting is quite good and I thought maybe some of the more obsessive-compulsive among us might enjoy it.....

https://www.chowhound.com/post/origin-form-dutch-oven-colonial-cookware-1022499?page=4

  Thanks Wolfy,  I was trying to think of a descriptive that would fit what I wanted to say and be subtle enough not to sound mean.
  I understand that accuracy is important on some levels,  but I question that it's necessary all the time,  if you're writing a how to book, or a history book it's one thing,  other times not so much,  one thing I always hated at the 'Vous was damned thread counters,  I believe that more newbies were discouraged away from the 'Vous by thread counters than anything else.
  Dutch Oven works for me.   

I think a lot of 'vous veterans forget how utterly overwhelming the first couple 'vous are.

While I agree wholeheartedly with both of you guys on the intimidating, snobbish behavior demonstrated by the typical family-oriented rendezvous 'thread-counter,' there ARE appropriate places for them, too. ;)

Historical reenactments, American Mountain Men events, demonstrators at National Historic Parks and their ilk are the perfect niche for these types of folks.  They revel in using the most accurate information possible and delivering it to the general public.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.   Those types who use their SOMETIMES accurate knowledge to intimidate or embarrass someone or a 'newbie' at a family type of rendezvous should be, as Del Gue would say, "Slit from crotch to eyeball with a dull deer antler!" :cheers:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on May 18, 2017, 09:46:14 AM
I met full fledged civil war reenactors here in FL once.   I had sweat through my t shirt and soaked the front of my shorts.  They stood there in full wool dark (well the Union guys did) uniforms patiently answering questions from us ignorant folks before (I think) the battle.  They let those that wanted to feel their sleeves.  Their shoes and boots must've been full of sweat. 

Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2017, 12:11:23 PM
Exactly!  One can't help but wonder why the Civil War drug on as long as it did.....what with combatants on both sides donning heavy wool uniform parts and typically battling in some of the warmest and most humid sections of the country! :P

No wonder Jeremiah Johnson headed for the Wasatch range after the war with Mexico! :fire2:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Unknown on May 18, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
Dutch Ovens Chronicled is the book referenced in the Wikipedia article on dutch ovens, which claims the name comes from the superior dry sand casting technology used in the Netherlands being imported by England in the late 17th c.
 Apparently, the same book also credits Paul Revere with the addition of legs, as well as the rimmed lid. Following the link to Abraham Darby is interesting as well.

I have not read the book, anybody done so?

Here's the wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven

Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 18, 2017, 06:36:37 PM
I have that book in my library......surpri sed? :lol:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on May 19, 2017, 06:03:34 AM
I have that book in my library......surpri sed? :lol:

  You Have A Library ??? ?
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 19, 2017, 10:39:42 AM
Moe, He does indeed.  But most of the books have been colored in.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 19, 2017, 10:45:02 AM
I have that book in my library......surpri sed? :lol:

  You Have A Library ??? ?
According to Heather, YES! :-\    She reads a lot, too, but most of her reading for enjoyment consists of novels.....she gives most of them away for others to enjoy.  On the other hand, I keep almost ALL of mine because my reading material consists of historical reference books, technical reference material on subjects that I am trying to study & learn more about, etc.  Just the newest and most complete multi-volume, hard-bound set (annotated by Dr. Gary Moulton) of The Journals of Lewis & Clark, which includes a full-sized, bound volume of all of Captain Clark's hand-drawn maps of the journey from the Wood River encampment to Fort Clatsop and both routes back......that heavyweight set of books alone, takes up over 4 feet of shelf space!  :coffee: :shrug:    They will be going to our local Carnegie Library for the benefit of other students of the expedition when I croak. O:-)

P.S.......You're a funny guy, Bob!  :doh: :lol:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Unknown on May 19, 2017, 11:19:50 AM
He has been on a roll lately. Nothing that made me actually L O L but close.

If I look back at the references in QC's OPost, were those written by Dutch descendents. Could be the Dutch called them bake kettles and everyone else referred to the pots as Dutch ovens. :shrug:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 19, 2017, 06:04:48 PM
There is some validity to that idea, as well.  Those 'bake kettles' were supposedly first traded in large quantities in this country by the early Dutch traders. :stir:  Thus, they were referred to as 'Dutch' ovens.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 19, 2017, 06:54:40 PM
Clearly, different people in various places called them different things.  We cannot assume even a scholarly whitepaper on the etymology of cooking utensil terms is 100% accurate.  We don't know everything that transpired in the last 200 years.  Maybe not all variants have been documented.  Maybe those Nebraska farmers are fooling around with the books.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 19, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
Nope.....just reportin' on what I read. :coffee:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 20, 2017, 04:34:43 AM
Please don't be offended, wolfy.  It was just a good-natured rib.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 20, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
NO worries, Quench! ;)      If I couldn't 'take it,' I couldn't 'dish it out,' either...........an d we all know I consider that to be one of life's greatest pleasures! :lol: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Unknown on May 20, 2017, 10:27:22 AM
I wasn't trying to be definitive QC. I thought the DO being cast in 18th c. Netherlands was perhaps an interesting tid bit. However, if Revere did put the legs on, and design the lid, that is really interesting imo.

That would make it more of an American Oven. It'd be cool to see pre-Paul pot with legs and/or lipped lid. Or a similar type of  legged pot from another land/culture from before mid 1700's.

Wolfy, can you look that up in your edition? I'd like to know the authors sources for the P. Revere innovations.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 20, 2017, 01:31:16 PM
Dutch Ovens Chronicled is the book referenced in the Wikipedia article on dutch ovens, which claims the name comes from the superior dry sand casting technology used in the Netherlands being imported by England in the late 17th c.
 Apparently, the same book also credits Paul Revere with the addition of legs, as well as the rimmed lid. Following the link to Abraham Darby is interesting as well.

I have not read the book, anybody done so?

Here's the wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven


I wasn't trying to be definitive QC. I thought the DO being cast in 18th c. Netherlands was perhaps an interesting tid bit. However, if Revere did put the legs on, and design the lid, that is really interesting imo.

That would make it more of an American Oven. It'd be cool to see pre-Paul pot with legs and/or lipped lid. Or a similar type of  legged pot from another land/culture from before mid 1700's.

Wolfy, can you look that up in your edition? I'd like to know the authors sources for the P. Revere innovations.

OK, Unk....as requested, I pulled out my copy of John G. Ragsdale's DUTCH OVENS CHRONICLED: THEIR USE IN THE UNITED STATES printed by The University of Arkansas Press.  The Wikipedia article you linked to draws heavily on Ragsdale's research, however he makes no mention of the Colonial Urban Legend which claims that Paul Revere devised the '3 legged/rimmed lid' additions to the camp Dutch oven that we are all familiar with today.  I won't go into Darby and his contributions to the improvements made to the 'bake kettle' because that information is easily accessed by everyone, simply by doing a Google search of DUTCH OVEN. :P

I too, have read in various places that Revere was the genius behind the modifications to the basic cast iron kettle.  Whether that is fact or fiction, I don't know.  You know how that stuff goes, though.....one guy writes it in a book and others repeat it.  Whether there is any solid, definitive early source for that claim, I have no idea. :shrug:   

I'm certain that everyone has also come across the claim that Lewis & Clark emphasized in their journals that the Dutch oven was one of the most prized & valuable pieces of equipment that they took with them on the expedition.  BALDERDASH!  As I mentioned before, I have a complete set of the most scholarly-annotated & recently-edited JOURNALS OF LEWIS & CLARK, which also includes all of the journals extant that were kept by those men that were literate and who were also members of the expedition.  The ONLY reference to a Dutch oven in ALL those thousands of words was when one of the men, I believe it was Sgt. Whitehead, wrote in his journal that they left "one of the Dutch ovens" in a cache-pit at the lower end of the portage around the Great Falls of the Missouri River.  They unearthed that cache on the journey back down the river a year later, but the high water in the Spring had washed part of it away.....no mention of whether that oven was recovered or had been lost.  I looked.....I couldn't find it, either. :-\
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 20, 2017, 04:36:03 PM
Given that three legged frying panos (spiders) were in use for hundreds of years, I would doubt that any one person could be given credit for legs on a cast iron pot.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 20, 2017, 06:25:01 PM
Ragsdale claims in his research that the 'tin kitchens,' 'reflectors,' 'tin bakers' or 'hasteners' as they were also called, were sometimes referred to "MISTAKENLY" (his word) as Dutch ovens, in essence, nullifying the information that Quenchcrack revealed in the opening post of this thread.  :shrug:

I guess we have to take all of this stuff we read with several of the coarsest of grains of salt!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 23, 2017, 05:31:48 AM
Why would we believe Ragsdale when we do not believe other researchers?  By what criteria do we judge 200 year old written comments uttered by people we cannot interview?  Choose a name that you are comfortable with and go with it.  For as long as we live we can explain ourselves, after that, who cares?
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 23, 2017, 05:55:31 AM
Ragsdale cites his sources for his research, both in the text and in footnotes.....but you're right, this is foggy territory at best.  That's the trouble with things like this.....the most common, everyday and mundane items that were used the most often were hardly mentioned in diaries and journals because they didn't consider it important or believed that everyone knew what they were talking about anyway, so why repeat it? :shrug: :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wsdstan on May 23, 2017, 08:26:38 AM
Well that attitude about historical writings would invalidate all historical data passed down since the Republic was founded.  While the subject of this thread is trivial, the position that since we cannot interview them so disregard what they said, would apply to everything.  Should we not believe what historians who are dead wrote about events at the Alamo?  At Gettysburg?  At Sante Fe in 1847?  There are sharply differing accounts on many historical subjects.   
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 23, 2017, 01:40:57 PM
As an engineer, I was taught if something looked fishy, challenge the data, if the data looks ok, challenge the math, if the math looks ok, challenge the interpretation, if the interpretation was wrong, do your own and let your peers have at it.  Yes, almost everything can be questioned but we often have no better information with which to challenge it.  But if we assume everything written in history books is correct, we will never make progress toward the real truth.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 23, 2017, 02:43:37 PM
https://youtu.be/MMzd40i8TfA

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on May 23, 2017, 03:25:19 PM
DAD!
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 23, 2017, 05:38:20 PM
I think it is time for this thread to come to an end.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on May 23, 2017, 06:05:05 PM
I don't think we need to do that, QC......just trying to add a bit of mirth to a subject that probably bores everyone, except us, to death. ;D :cheers:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wsdstan on May 23, 2017, 08:26:43 PM
It ain't boring.  I learned what a Dutch oven was or is.  I learned what a Dutch oven isn't or wasn't.  I have a brand new warming thing waiting for its first batch of biscuits and am desperately looking for a break from spraying weevils and weeds. 
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Orbean on May 24, 2017, 09:37:36 AM
Interesting, good post. The enclosed dutch oven/reflector oven is something i would be interested in purchasing. Knowing what a bake kettle is adds to picture when reading about the fur trading days and other western history.

Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on May 24, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
A hand made, tin reflector oven will cost you a car payment.  That is why those nifty cast iron pots with legs and flat lids (call it what you want) are so popular.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on September 18, 2017, 05:12:34 PM
I think the underlying reason the cast iron bake kettle is more popular than the 'tin kitchen' is soley because of its versatility.  Boiling, sauteing, baking, frying or any other method of cooking you use to cook at home in your kitchen is possible in the cast iron vessel.....not so for its overpriced competitor. :stir:   Maybe a better question would be.....what CAN'T you cook in a cast iron 'bake kettle' or Dutch oven? :shrug:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on October 05, 2017, 04:54:00 PM

  Not to beat a dead horse,  but sometimes people get too technical about nomenclature,  who ever tagged a Dutch Oven a bake kettle died a long, long time ago and the name itself hasn't been uttered more than a time or two in the last hundred years if at all,  most people know them as cast iron pots or Dutch Ovens,  why complicate it now ?
  Also, reflector ovens made of Aluminum and sheet steel whether production made or custom made are available on the web for $70.00 or less,  I've made several myself that fold flat, use toaster oven grill grates from Walmart for $2.95, I made one out of Aluminum flashing, one out of thin Stainless salvaged from a Stainless counter top,  and one out of cardboard covered with aluminum foil, all worked very well, the most expensive one cost me under $20.00 dollars.
  There are quite a few tutorials on line showing different ways to make a reflector oven on the cheap.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on October 05, 2017, 06:21:13 PM
You're right.....anyone with a lick of sense can whip up a passable reflector oven or 'Dutch oven,' but unless you own a foundry, an iron, 3-legged, BAKE KETTLE is tough to build. :taunt:  :lol:
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on October 06, 2017, 04:48:02 AM
The only advantage for the tin oven might be spit roasting.  I dunno, I never tried it.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on October 06, 2017, 11:01:54 AM
You're right.....anyone with a lick of sense can whip up a passable reflector oven or 'Dutch oven,' but unless you own a foundry, an iron, 3-legged, BAKE KETTLE is tough to build. :taunt:  :lol:

 Which is why I said what I did about reflector ovens but didn't suggest building your own Dutch oven,  however one doesn't need to $75.00 ~ $100.00 or more for a lodge or vintage cast oven,  box stores such as Big Lots, Job Lot, and Walmart offer plain cast or porcelain coated cast iron Dutch Ovens made in Asia for $19.99 ~ $39.99 depending on size, they may not have the name recognition but the cook and bake just as well. 
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on October 06, 2017, 11:16:05 AM
The only advantage for the tin oven might be spit roasting.  I dunno, I never tried it.

 Actually "Tin" reflector ovens do have an advantage over Cast iron Dutch Ovens in many baking applications,  they bake slower, allow monitoring, aren't so prone to burning baked foods like Dutch ovens do if not watched carefully,  they also do a good job of roasting meats and poultry,  I use mine allot to bake fresh caught fish.
 It's also very easy to adapt a home made reflector oven with a spit,  Lowe's and Home Depot sell just the spit and forks without the brackets and electric motors for about $12.00,  all you have to do is drill the appropriate sized hole on either side of your oven, then snip out a slot on an angle on one side,  mine came with a squared shaft and a wooden handle, you just rotate the split every 10 minutes or so using the wooden handle,  the shaft stays where ever you want it to because of the squared corners on the shaft.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on October 06, 2017, 04:49:07 PM
The only advantage for the tin oven might be spit roasting.  I dunno, I never tried it.

 Actually "Tin" reflector ovens do have an advantage over Cast iron Dutch Ovens in many baking applications,  they bake slower, allow monitoring, aren't so prone to burning baked foods like Dutch ovens do if not watched carefully,  they also do a good job of roasting meats and poultry,  I use mine allot to bake fresh caught fish.
 It's also very easy to adapt a home made reflector oven with a spit,  Lowe's and Home Depot sell just the spit and forks without the brackets and electric motors for about $12.00,  all you have to do is drill the appropriate sized hole on either side of your oven, then snip out a slot on an angle on one side,  mine came with a squared shaft and a wooden handle, you just rotate the split every 10 minutes or so using the wooden handle,  the shaft stays where ever you want it to because of the squared corners on the shaft.
If that's a challenge (and it sounds like it is), I challenge you to a bake-off! :duel:   My BAKE KETTLE against your REFLECTOR OVEN.....anything you care to bake, anytime! :coffee:     The gauntlet has been thrown! :chopwood:   

Oh, and "PICTURES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN," of course. 8)  :rofl:




POST SCRIPT:  "I bake damned good biscuits, boy."
                       -Jeremiah Johnson
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on October 06, 2017, 05:08:17 PM
I suggest a full grown hog, spit roasted whole.
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on October 06, 2017, 05:52:32 PM
I can do a 12-14 lb. turkey in my bake kettle, but if Moe selects a hog.....I admit defeat. :'(
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on October 07, 2017, 10:59:27 AM
  Hey Craig,  I'm up to a challenge, but you'd have to take my word about the results,  pictures as you very well know are not an option for me usually.
  As the challenger you'd have to pick the food, just play fair and pick something that will fit into my reflector oven, it'll take up to a 12"x 16" baking sheet or shallow roasting pan,  and actual baking or roasting times will be quicker in a Dutch Oven that it will be in a reflector oven, so in my opinion the only result that would count for a win to be fair would be on the quality of the finished food and the ease of clean up when it's finished.
  Clean up could be considerably shortened if you use Dutch Oven pot liners, which would be fair in my opinion.

 Some day before too long we'll have to get together in PM's and you can school me about posting pictures on the forum ??? ?
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Moe M. on October 07, 2017, 11:01:19 AM
I suggest a full grown hog, spit roasted whole.

  LOL, I'd need a year to save up for materials and get a reflector oven built to take a full sized hog. 
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on October 07, 2017, 12:25:39 PM
OK, let's bake a loaf of sourdough bread.  I've posted pictures of our sourdough bread loaves baked in a 10" deep Lodge bake kettle in past threads......do a search.  If you can't see them because of the recent Photobucket fiasco, I'll bake another loaf and use Imgur this time.

Roasting times ARE usually shorter in the bake kettle, not because of temperature, but because of the tight fit of the lid on a GOOD oven like a Lodge......baking temperatures have to be controlled no matter what means you use to make it happen.  Almost all bake kettle users employ way too much poorly placed bottom temperature and burn the food.....it doesn't take much.   Moisture is created in the baking process and that lid-fit is crucial to its being used to advantage in sourdough bread baking.  High initial baking temperature, followed by a decreased oven temperature creates the best sourdough loaf.  Reflector ovens do not allow that initial high-heat, high-humidity environment, but good luck in trying to make it happen in your tin contraption. ;D

As far as oven liners are concerned.....I've never used 'em and never will.  Why would I?....I never burn anything.  It's just a needless expense & something else to mess with.......a quart of water brought to a boil in the closed oven and a quick swish with a dish mop cleans out anything sticky from baking things like cinnamon rolls.  Dump it out, set back on the dying coals to dry and I'm done.  I don't even oil them because they're seasoned....no worries about rust, ever.

If you don't have a sourdough start, I'll send you one from the one I started in 1976.  That way we're starting at the same starting line with a very active culture.  :duel:

BONNE CHANCE, MON AMI! :cheers:

Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: buzzacott on October 08, 2017, 01:28:25 AM
Probably the most "traditional" of all the Dutch Ovens is the South African Potjie. This is because it's largely unchanged from the time of the Dutch voortrekkers of the 1830s. From what I can tell the biggest change is the full wire handle. The old timers both here in Aus, and over there in South Africa used a pair of long wire/steel rod hooks on a short length of chain to pick up the Dutch Oven and move it around. We have a lot of South Africans here in Oz so you can pick up a potjie pretty cheaply and the rest of the Aussie camp oven cooking fraternity haven't quite caught on as yet ;-)

Here's a mob selling them in the USA - http://potjiepotusa.com/potjie-pots-3-leg-best-duty.html (no affiliation - just found them in a google search)

(https://i.imgur.com/oKQjjd2.jpg)
Potjie on the fire - picture stolen from the internet

Personally I no longer use a cast iron camp oven for my camp cookery. I have a bunch of vintage and antique cast iron dutch ovens here, but I'll probably sell them off at some stage. Instead I tend to use a 12 inch diameter sheet steel traditional Aussie "Bedourie" camp oven. If you're careful with your heat control it'll do a roast beef or damper just as evenly as a cast iron dutch oven, but it's less than half the weight of a comparable sized cast iron type. The lid overlaps halfway down the main pot which keeps the coals and ash out of your food and the lid can be upturned for use as a frypan. Along with a quartpot and a 3 litre tinware billy can, the Bedourie oven makes up the largest part of my (vehicle-borne) camp cookery outfit.

(https://i.imgur.com/el231lv.jpg)
A drover cooking a damper in a deep bedourie oven in South Australia circa 1963. The flatter type near the fire is pretty much identical to mine.


Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on October 08, 2017, 07:11:57 AM
Throw another shrimp in the potjie, buzz!  :cheers:

http://bladesandbushlore.com/index.php?topic=4959.0
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: madmax on October 08, 2017, 01:57:35 PM
I suggest a full grown hog, spit roasted whole.

FL Kracs are in on that.

http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/dmakkos/DSC00078_zpsizngpx3t.jpg
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Quenchcrack on October 08, 2017, 06:59:30 PM
Hmmmmm...good piggin!
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on November 30, 2017, 05:47:14 PM
Found this on YouTube today.  It adds some historical reference from an old manuscript.....

https://youtu.be/NGBvqNJ8H-U
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: Mannlicher on December 01, 2017, 05:47:59 AM
I think a lot of 'vous veterans forget how utterly overwhelming the first couple 'vous are.
  I got the feeling that 'vous veterans were more full of themselves, than full of knowledge. 
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on December 01, 2017, 08:01:34 AM
I think a lot of 'vous veterans forget how utterly overwhelming the first couple 'vous are.
  I got the feeling that 'vous veterans were more full of themselves, than full of knowledge. 

Add a few brewskies and they get even more knowledgeable. :cheers: ;D
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: SIXFOOTER on December 03, 2017, 07:16:05 PM
I have made everything from Birthday cake to cock au vin to popcorn in mine
Title: Re: Bake Kettle VS Dutch oven VS Reflector oven VS Spider
Post by: wolfy on January 28, 2018, 04:01:38 PM
In some reading on the subject of U.S. Colonial cooking methods, I found this again today......

http://historiccookingschool.com/colonial-kitchens/

It's the same source that Quenchcrack cited in the Opening Post.....

If you choose to read it all, and you should because it was written in 1898 and very descriptive, it seems to explain just how and when Bake Kettles changed in nomenclature and became known as Dutch Ovens in some locales.  During that period, it seems that the Bake Kettles were mostly dedicated to baking bread and the sheet-metal contraptions known as Dutch Ovens were mostly used for meats and things that needed longer roasting or baking times.  The first Foxfire Book in the series featured an OLD mountain lady (Aunt Arie) that referred to the Bake Kettle as a BREAD OVEN.  That referral seems to support the theory & practice, in those early days at least, of using the Bake Kettle or Bread Oven almost exclusively for the baking of bread......and yet another term to consider. ;D