Blades and Bushlore

General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Moe M. on June 01, 2020, 07:51:10 AM

Title: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 01, 2020, 07:51:10 AM
 Now we appear to be under attack by a bunch of professional anarchist that are rioting, burning, looting, and destroying police buildings and resources,  cities are in flames,  and police are hard pressed to even contain the problem let alone stop it.
 There are many excuses being made for the rage that seems to be driving the protests/riots,  politics, racial abuse, government abuse of power,  poor economic balance,  but the bottom line is that criminal behavior is criminal behavior, those committing acts of arson, looting, destroying private and public property, and assaulting police and civilians are criminals and deserve to be held accountable and be punished to the fullest extent that the law allows.
 And worse, they (who ever they are) have started to invade suburban residential communities, one has to wonder what will happen when civilians and homeowners are forced to use violence in order to defend themselves, families, and homes against these invaders,  we are a country of laws,  what will it become without law and under anarchy ?
 Can any reasonable person not think that this whole assault on our country is not a well planed, well organized, and well funded plan to destroy our economy, our culture, our Constitution, and faith in our government and LE agencies,  I think it is,  I think it's been in the works for a long while just waiting for the right time to implement it, and the Corona virus and country wide shut down was that time.

 What say you ?         
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 01, 2020, 12:41:05 PM
You are correct in who is protesting, Antifa members are at the forefront.  Many of the looters, regardless of ethnicity, are nothing more than criminals.  They are not protesting they are looting.  There is an element that is coordinating an aggressive violence against the US and it's purpose is to disrupt the operation of this countries economy, political process, and way of life.

The media is of no help, they are on the side of the looters and their anti-Trump views destroy the reporting of facts.

The latest WH briefing is full of the dumbest questions trying to make all this Trumps fault as far as response is concerned. 

Some of you probably saw the "protesters" loot a REI retail store.  No police presence that I could see.   
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: hayshaker on June 01, 2020, 05:52:30 PM
we need to chop the head of the snake. this whole thing goes so far beyond
making the potus look bad. they are trying to destroy america.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 01, 2020, 09:11:42 PM
At first glance, I liked the idea that was used in San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake. "Shoot all looters on sight."

But as came to light later, the military could not discern between a looter and a shopkeeper or homeowner trying to salvage the remains of his stores stock or ones personal belongings before all was destroyed by the encroaching fires. Consequently, many innocent lives were mistakenly terminated by an overzealous military response.

That whole "Move wrong and you will be shot or bayonetted", concept put a real damper on disaster recovery. 

My take on this is, the military is focused and trained to destroy and conquer. That's great, that's what we need and want them to do. Just not on their own home turf. Rolling up in an APC with a Ma Duece on full rock and roll is what they do and they do it well. Doing it in your own back yard is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. Embarrassing at the very least. No? Who in the world came up with that idea? Where do we go next? Apache helicopters hovering over burning dumpsters? FA18 airstrikes on CVS pharmacies?

Watching a C130 gunship sideslip across a mob of protesters blocking the Interstate would be awesome though.

Never mind, I'm starting to make this sound like to much fun. Jeez, I glad I can laugh at myself. I gotta go. Need to wipe the grin off and douse the twinkle in my eye.

Maybe I should just buy one of them action video games like my grandson has. Probably a lot cheaper.

 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 01, 2020, 09:23:27 PM
Hayshaker and I were talking, just a couple weeks ago, about the pandemic and wondering if something else was going to pop up and bite us in the butt. I guess it did. What else can go wrong?
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 01, 2020, 09:25:06 PM
What I know is that nobody is going to like anarchy very much.  The Antifa bunch and the anarchist types along with the far left are not going to enjoy it at all albeit very briefly.  Those who put down the anarchists are not going to like doing what they have to do to quell it.  And the rest of the innocent bystanders are going to be caught in the melee.  The return to law and order after the anarchists get what they want will be a slow process, but the anarchists won't be a part of it, for obvious reasons.

Right now they are really stretching the rubber envelop of restraint.  When their activities spill over into rural areas, that's when the tide will turn. 

It's the first one that's really hard, after that it's relatively easy.  We really don't want to be forced to take that first step of the citizen militia having to put down an anarchist rebellion.  It will change our country forever, and not necessarily for the better.

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 01, 2020, 09:56:59 PM

...
Watching a C130 gunship sideslip across a mob of protesters blocking the Interstate would be awesome though.
....

That would put a whole different perspective on the violent protest thing.  The biggest problem with it though would be rebuilding the interstate.

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 01, 2020, 10:01:02 PM
I wish we would stop calling this violent protest.  It is domestic terrorism by the looters and those blocking highways.  The military police or National Guard can stop this quickly with a coordinated effort.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Phaedrus on June 02, 2020, 12:26:45 AM
I think the reporting is mostly nonsense and this isn't a very big deal.  It's pretty clear that it's 98% protestors and 2% troublemakers which probably mirrors the folks that the protests are directed against.  Be safe and don't take chances, just as in any other event.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 02, 2020, 07:29:47 PM
Burning 255 business establishments in Minnesota and a police station isn't a big deal?  Business operations that have been shut down due to the virus for nearly 3 months get a chance to open and these anarchists break in and loot and assault and you sit there and say it isn't a big deal?  Unbelievable.
 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 03, 2020, 01:29:10 PM
Burning 255 business establishments in Minnesota and a police station isn't a big deal?  Business operations that have been shut down due to the virus for nearly 3 months get a chance to open and these anarchists break in and loot and assault and you sit there and say it isn't a big deal?  Unbelievable.

 Sometimes I wish we had a like button to click on, but for some unexplained reason we don't,  so this will have to do.

 Stan, you're the man,  I read that post yesterday and wanted to respond so badly that the my throat hurt from keeping my mouth shut and my fingers off the key board, the only thing I could do was log out, partly to keep from making myself look unhinged and partly to keep from being banned from this forum. 
 For the first time in my life I really fear for my country,  we are in a very serious place in regard to the future of this grand experiment,  probably never closer to being destroyed and turned into an economically, morally, and ethically broken country,  some may argue but I don't think we are very far behind Venezuela in being totally ruined, I am truly heart broken to see the rioting, burn, looting, and property destruction on TV and hearing the media refer to it as protesting,  protesting is masses of people gathering peacefully,  carrying signs and using megaphones to address the crowds and make their concern known to the public and to our elected officials.
 Protesting is not tearing down cities, burning buildings and cars,  protesting is not looting businesses, attacking police,  or burning public buildings,  what that is domestic terrorism,  what that is is criminal behavior,  what that is is a total disrespect for the rights, lives, and property of others. 
 And if that wasn't bad enough,  a small city that I practically grew up in that abuts my town that has had very little violence, very few incidents of racial problems, and has a population that is pretty well divided across the spectrum of race and ethnicity, and that has always had the spirit of helping it's neighbors working for a better community is suddenly faced with paid agitators coming into the community and threatening to tear it apart and burn what's left.
 I live about a mile from the state border, the residents and business owners have boarded up what they can and they sit and wait to be attacked,  they don't deserve it and they shouldn't stand for it, and I hope they find the resources and the will to fight back to protect themselves and their property.
 ANTIFA has stated that once they have burned the businesses and taken what they believe is theirs they will be coming to residential neighborhoods and wreak havoc on residents and property,  well if they do some of them will be in for a huge surprise.

  No Big deal,  Really ??? 
     
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 03, 2020, 01:50:39 PM
     Big Deal? Meh. All depends on your perspective and past experiences.
     There is a list of atrocities that goes on and on through history. Each atrocity worse than the last.

     So far, it's been a big deal of it happens to you. But statistically, on an historical stage, it really is laughable.
     No mass hangings, no ones head paraded down the street on a pike. Really, a few rubber bullets, some tear gas and broken glass. Maybe even a couple cars on fire (Which mysteriously burst into flames with no "terrorists" even close to them, wonder how that happened) sure looks exciting and dangerous to our sheltered sensibilities.
     In the grand scheme of revolt, rebellion and passionate uprising against all things wrong and unfair in the world, this has been children's games.
     From what I can see, the actual violence and looting has been the work of opportunist criminals. There is no organized group in charge of this. Look closely at the videos and see for yourself. The self styled troublemakers are a bunch of young wannabe tough guys thinking this is just a fun lark. They have always been on the outer fringes of polite society and now is their chance to "stick it to the man", be somebody, show off for the girls that are impressed by such antics. In short, a rag-tag unorganized bunch of losers.
     And it's no better on the other side of the line. Pompous boys and girls in black uniforms pumped up with righteousness. Wielding paintball guns loaded with pepperballs and few tear gas grenades, think they are in charge. Luckily for them, there is no real organized group they have to contend with. (see paragraph above)
     To boot, it's an election year. That in and of itself is great entertainment. A select band of buffoons all trying to puff their chest out with grand rhetoric to further their personal reelection chances.
     Sorry Stan, I think you and Phaedrus each have valid points, but they are made from different perspectives.

    As I was typing this, I see Moe has an entry. Moe, watch your video feeds closely and see who is protesting, who is instigating the violence and who is getting caught up in the moment and exploiting the opportunity. Some of the best video is coming from the little local stations. The bigger networks have a market share ratings and advertising sales agenda so watch for the "Oh my, isn't this just awfull!" slant to their reporting.

     Just my two cents worth.  :coffee:    I'll wait for the  :deadhorse:    (that was an upside down donkey, right?)  :)


Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Phaedrus on June 03, 2020, 02:22:24 PM
Well, it's a big deal for Minneapolis. The damage to businesses is certainly bad although not nearly as bad as cop murdering in a man publicly as onlookers begged him to stop.  I absolutely disagree that riots are the solution but nothing else they've tried has done any good.  Anyone here that's lived in Minneapolis knows this kind of behavior from the police there is not new.

To me the far bigger "deal" is talk of using the military to suppress protests even if they're not violent.  I also can't wrap my mind around the fact that the response to seeing cops murdering a man as he begs for his life is mostly "meh" and the real outrage is being reserved for the rioters.  If we condemn criminal behavior let's condemn it too when it's being committed by the police.  I too fear for this country as the slide to total fascism seems just around the corner.  We're about a step and a half from being a full fledged Banana Republic.  It's frightening to realize that I trust the military more than the government; civilian control of the gov is a cornerstone of liberty and democracy but right now only the basic decency and conscientiousness of the military is preventing the administration from snuffing out the rule of law entirely.  Three years ago it would have been unthinkable to even speak aloud about invoking the Insurrection Act, and flooding our streets with soldiers is like something out of a bad movie.  We need to cut the head off the snake but there's some disagreement as to which snake needs it.

Our cities are not battlespaces.  When that's no longer true then America is utterly lost.

There's about ten million other things on my mind but as Moe says, most of them are not suitable for this forum.  I'll just say stay safe and good luck to us all.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 03, 2020, 03:04:48 PM
This is a big deal in America and I agree that we are a stones throw from a cultural and economic disaster.  I don't think peaceful protest is what has the military coming, it is criminal domestic terrorism by Antifa and their allies as well as some on the both sides of the spectrum who wouldn't mind a shooting free for all.  The riots and looting have diluted the outrage felt about the death of Mr. Floyd because peaceful protest with the support of the majority of America was distorted by outsiders who exploited this "opportunity" to create chaos. 

Pete your analogy that this is "meh" of course depends on where you have been and what you have experienced.  Ask the store owner who just had his entire life's work destroyed.  Ask the people left behind when Mr. Floyd was killed by a monster of a police officer.  Were there atrocities in other nations in history that were worse?  Many of of them of course but this one is a big deal because it is here and now.  Is this worse than Watts?  Not yet but it is close for those who have lost their property or been attacked and beaten.  Is it worse than being lined up and shot by the Nazi's?  Of course not.  But it is a damned big deal if it is happening to you. 

 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 03, 2020, 04:56:34 PM
...
 ANTIFA has stated that once they have burned the businesses and taken what they believe is theirs they will be coming to residential neighborhoods and wreak havoc on residents and property,  well if they do some of them will be in for a huge surprise.....

They really have no freakin idea what waits out here in the woods....


Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 03, 2020, 05:04:52 PM
Excellent observation Alan.   :pissed:
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 03, 2020, 06:37:04 PM
     Big Deal? Meh. All depends on your perspective and past experiences.
     There is a list of atrocities that goes on and on through history. Each atrocity worse than the last.

     So far, it's been a big deal of it happens to you. But statistically, on an historical stage, it really is laughable.
     No mass hangings, no ones head paraded down the street on a pike. Really, a few rubber bullets, some tear gas and broken glass. Maybe even a couple cars on fire (Which mysteriously burst into flames with no "terrorists" even close to them, wonder how that happened) sure looks exciting and dangerous to our sheltered sensibilities.
     In the grand scheme of revolt, rebellion and passionate uprising against all things wrong and unfair in the world, this has been children's games.
     From what I can see, the actual violence and looting has been the work of opportunist criminals. There is no organized group in charge of this. Look closely at the videos and see for yourself. The self styled troublemakers are a bunch of young wannabe tough guys thinking this is just a fun lark. They have always been on the outer fringes of polite society and now is their chance to "stick it to the man", be somebody, show off for the girls that are impressed by such antics. In short, a rag-tag unorganized bunch of losers.
     And it's no better on the other side of the line. Pompous boys and girls in black uniforms pumped up with righteousness. Wielding paintball guns loaded with pepperballs and few tear gas grenades, think they are in charge. Luckily for them, there is no real organized group they have to contend with. (see paragraph above)
     To boot, it's an election year. That in and of itself is great entertainment. A select band of buffoons all trying to puff their chest out with grand rhetoric to further their personal reelection chances.
     Sorry Stan, I think you and Phaedrus each have valid points, but they are made from different perspectives.

    As I was typing this, I see Moe has an entry. Moe, watch your video feeds closely and see who is protesting, who is instigating the violence and who is getting caught up in the moment and exploiting the opportunity. Some of the best video is coming from the little local stations. The bigger networks have a market share ratings and advertising sales agenda so watch for the "Oh my, isn't this just awfull!" slant to their reporting.

     Just my two cents worth.  :coffee:    I'll wait for the  :deadhorse:    (that was an upside down donkey, right?)  :)

  And that's about all it's worth,  it must be nice to be so idealistic to the point of caring more about humanity than having to give a shat about people,  and yet be so cynical that no one can be trusted. 
  But no,  I'm not getting sucked into trying to educate those who have no willingness to learn,  but learn they will,  real hard and a hair too late. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 03, 2020, 10:26:13 PM
Idealistic? I never thought about myself that way. On some level that's maybe, not so bad. Cynical? Oh yea. To a fault. Question everything and trust very few people and certainly no politicians.


 ANTIFA has stated
     

Really? ANTIFA has stated? They/it have no organization, no leaders, no spokespersons. They/it are like smoke or the boogie man.

"Remember the Maine !"  got us into a war in 1898
"The Tonkin Gulf Incident" got us into a war in 1964
"They have weapons of mass destruction" got us into a sandbox war that we're still trying to shovel our way out of. 
"ANITFA has stated". Well, who exactly said it , when, where? Or was it a statement from a politician during a press conference or photo opportunity event?

The first three of these rallying cries have been put forth by politicians and each one has been proven to be misinformation (a lie), calculated to sway public opinion towards war.  The last one seems to be a pretty good piece of misinformation too. Who is in charge of ANTIFA, who is the spokesperson that said it? Who carries an ID card or wears a uniform that identifies them as ANTIFA? Where are the meetings held? Or on what social media platform?

ANTIFA seems to scare the daylights out of some of our politicians and so the logic goes, we should be scared too. What a great excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act.

Just where these leaders are trying to lead us. My take is, they aren't trying to lead us at all. They are trying to distract us from impending failures. From what I'm seeing in the comments here, they are doing a pretty good job of it.

So, just where are we at? 100,000+ dead, shortage of critical medical supplies, food prices threatening to launch through the roof, only reasonable way to pay back the national debt is with inflated dollars, and there is a possibility they won't be able to control hyperinflation of the dollar. There is a lot for us to be distracted from. And this social unrest with its protests and riots just fell into their laps. What an opportunity! How lucky can they get?

Do you trust these people to keep your food supply abundant and affordable? Your currency from collapsing and your transportation, bridge and rail systems safe and affordable? How about your power grid. Have they taken the steps to harden it against a hack attack? How about hydroelectric dam failures and its associated flooding. Have they allocated the funds to do any of this? If the answer to any of these is no, what have you done to protect yourself from the shortcomings of the people you trust?

Trust the people in charge to do the right thing?      SURPRISE !!!! They don't give a shat about people! (where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in the previous post)

Dang, another two cents gone. (Bing Crosby sings quietly in the background "Brother, can you spare a dime" from 1932 depression era)




   

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 04, 2020, 10:09:41 AM
Idealistic? I never thought about myself that way. On some level that's maybe, not so bad. Cynical? Oh yea. To a fault. Question everything and trust very few people and certainly no politicians.


 ANTIFA has stated
     

Really? ANTIFA has stated? They/it have no organization, no leaders, no spokespersons. They/it are like smoke or the boogie man.

"Remember the Maine !"  got us into a war in 1898
"The Tonkin Gulf Incident" got us into a war in 1964
"They have weapons of mass destruction" got us into a sandbox war that we're still trying to shovel our way out of. 
"ANITFA has stated". Well, who exactly said it , when, where? Or was it a statement from a politician during a press conference or photo opportunity event?

The first three of these rallying cries have been put forth by politicians and each one has been proven to be misinformation (a lie), calculated to sway public opinion towards war.  The last one seems to be a pretty good piece of misinformation too. Who is in charge of ANTIFA, who is the spokesperson that said it? Who carries an ID card or wears a uniform that identifies them as ANTIFA? Where are the meetings held? Or on what social media platform?

ANTIFA seems to scare the daylights out of some of our politicians and so the logic goes, we should be scared too. What a great excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act.

Just where these leaders are trying to lead us. My take is, they aren't trying to lead us at all. They are trying to distract us from impending failures. From what I'm seeing in the comments here, they are doing a pretty good job of it.

So, just where are we at? 100,000+ dead, shortage of critical medical supplies, food prices threatening to launch through the roof, only reasonable way to pay back the national debt is with inflated dollars, and there is a possibility they won't be able to control hyperinflation of the dollar. There is a lot for us to be distracted from. And this social unrest with its protests and riots just fell into their laps. What an opportunity! How lucky can they get?

Do you trust these people to keep your food supply abundant and affordable? Your currency from collapsing and your transportation, bridge and rail systems safe and affordable? How about your power grid. Have they taken the steps to harden it against a hack attack? How about hydroelectric dam failures and its associated flooding. Have they allocated the funds to do any of this? If the answer to any of these is no, what have you done to protect yourself from the shortcomings of the people you trust?

Trust the people in charge to do the right thing?      SURPRISE !!!! They don't give a shat about people! (where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in the previous post)

Dang, another two cents gone. (Bing Crosby sings quietly in the background "Brother, can you spare a dime" from 1932 depression era)

 It's a free country my friend (at least for the short term) so you are free to support or criticize anyone or anything that makes you happy,  the fact that I have personal reservations about your views on Life, the Universe, and Politics shouldn't let that distract you from ranting all you wish or substituting BS for real facts, at a time when this country and the rest of the world for that matter is experiencing a very difficult time in it's history, mostly because of people who simply can't deal with life as it's dealt, so they stick their heads into tight dark spaces and hide from reality by convincing themselves that good is bad and bad is good.
 For the foreseeable future things will take their natural courses until life becomes too untenable for supporters of the Constitution to comfortably conform to,  in which case a correction will be initiated,  quickly, efficiently, and with extreme prejudice,  it's not like we haven't been there and done that once before.       
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 04, 2020, 12:43:36 PM
"...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - DOI(TJ)



Alan

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 04, 2020, 01:13:50 PM
"...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - DOI(TJ)

Alan

  Excellent and quite timely post. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 04, 2020, 01:32:07 PM
Moe, when you started this thread on 1 June you finished your opening post with " What say you ? "

Now you know.

In my last post, I asked a few questions, most of them rhetorical. But a few really needed answers. What I got was an accusation of "substituting BS for real facts"

And yet, you didn't take to time to call BS on any of my statements. Just lumped them all together under a "rant" label.

Not one of the questions was answered. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The questions and/or statements apparently made you nervous. They should have. They addressed just a few of the difficult subjects of the day.

Alan, your post references DOI (TJ). What is that? I'm not familiar with the source initials.
Your post, however, reminded me of the "Peasants revolt of 1381". The peasants took a lot of abuse until the tax collectors started checking the young female family members for virginity. That was the last in a long line of abuses. Heads rolled over that. Now that's a correction with extreme prejudice!  :)





Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 04, 2020, 01:38:01 PM
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 04, 2020, 02:14:43 PM
Moe, when you started this thread on 1 June you finished your opening post with " What say you ? "

Now you know.

In my last post, I asked a few questions, most of them rhetorical. But a few really needed answers. What I got was an accusation of "substituting BS for real facts"

And yet, you didn't take to time to call BS on any of my statements. Just lumped them all together under a "rant" label.

Not one of the questions was answered. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The questions and/or statements apparently made you nervous. They should have. They addressed just a few of the difficult subjects of the day.

Alan, your post references DOI (TJ). What is that? I'm not familiar with the source initials.
Your post, however, reminded me of the "Peasants revolt of 1381". The peasants took a lot of abuse until the tax collectors started checking the young female family members for virginity. That was the last in a long line of abuses. Heads rolled over that. Now that's a correction with extreme prejudice!  :)

 Well you are right about the fact that you didn't get any answers to your questions rhetorical nor those requiring substance,  but you failed to understand the reasons for my non answers,  that being that your questions were not meant to further an honest dialog,  they were meant to be bait simply for you to rant on about the injustices imaginary or real that the US has perpetrated on it's citizens and in other parts of the world whether justified or not,  we used to refer to that as Moral Relativism,  and that is BS, and I'm simply not being a party to any of it.
 I'm one of those people you probably think are too ignorant to recognize that the US is just another place on the world map,  not special or unique,  and it's people are no better or worse than people from anywhere else, and you likely don't hold much respect for religious beliefs as well. 
 In any event it's quite clear that we have conflicting views on probably just about everything so there really isn't much to be gained by carrying on any further.

 But I will pray for your awakening.  (big grin)
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 04, 2020, 02:18:38 PM
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan

Yes, I am. I actually hold dual citizenship and I was born with both. Kinda neat hunh? If you wanted to reference "Declaration of Independance" (Thomas Jefferson), Well, why didn't you just say so! (best Foghorn Leghorn voice)

People from all over the world view this forum. It's just courteous to keep them in mind when using abbreviations. Just a thought.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 04, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
 :lol: Well Moe, now we know where your going to be for the next while!! :rofl: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 04, 2020, 03:07:10 PM
:lol: Well Moe, now we know where your going to be for the next while!! :rofl: :banana: :banana: :banana:

  LOL, said I'd pray for you, didn't say I'd waste a lot of time on it,  diminishing return and all that stuff. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 04, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan

Yes, I am. I actually hold dual citizenship and I was born with both. Kinda neat hunh? If you wanted to reference "Declaration of Independance" (Thomas Jefferson), Well, why didn't you just say so! (best Foghorn Leghorn voice)

People from all over the world view this forum. It's just courteous to keep them in mind when using abbreviations. Just a thought.

So, you knew what I was referencing but you asked anyway so you could self-righteously tell me to mind my manners for anyone from all over the world.... I suppose they could Google it .... too.

And No, I don't think dual citizenship is pretty neat.  I actually think it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties.  But, since you were born that way, that's not your fault...

And, if you really didn't know what the quote was from, hence my question about your citizenship, then someone did a poor job of educating you or you did a poor job of learning.

Have a nice night.

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 05, 2020, 12:45:18 AM
I should recognize an exert from a document studied for two weeks over 50 years ago? And if I don't I'm in illiterate slob and the product of an incompetent school. Quote to me all the symbols from your high school Boolean Algebra class. uh hunh, that's what I thought.

Since you are of superior intelligence and schooling I'm certain you'll be able to recognize and identify each of these
US government agencies and programs I worked with. NTIA, FCC, FBI, BIA, NHS, USFWS, BLM, BIE, DOI, IHS, USFS, NPS, USGS, FAA and the USDA, FSA for CRP

 So, actually Alan, I didn't know what DOI (TJ) stood for. To me, DOI stands for Department of the Interior and I couldn't put a TJ to it. So I asked. After I received your reply I did a Google on the initials. I guess you took offense at what I found.

I also took offense: at the snide remark questioning my citizenship.

As far as self righteously telling you to mind your manners, I certainly didn't intend that.  I would no more tell you to mind your manners than I would tell a rancher to mind his herd when he has no cattle.

The curt "have a nice night" dismissal was a nice touch. Sue Fox book I presume?  (Google it, that's what you expected me to do)

no smiling faces or dancing bananas as an agree to disagree notation to this guy

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 05, 2020, 04:36:11 AM
I don't think dual citizenship is pretty neat.  I actually think it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties.  But, since you were born that way, that's not your fault...
Alan
Your line made me curious.
What exact loyalties are you talking about, what prevents dual citizenship from being loyal to where ever you live?
I used to have dual citizenship, have up one since I didn't see the need for it. If I could choose again, I would have kept it.
My son, half Dutch (me), half Czech (my wife) has also both nationalities.
Why would I deny one of them, why he shouldn't have the best of both worlds?

Example, we live currently in Prague, Czech Republic. if you would ever want to study abroad, some countries prefer students from certain countries, have 2 nationalities would help.
If my son would ever want to move to The Netherlands, and buy a house there, it is without issue if you have the local nationality. Getting a mortgage and building permissions is quite hard if you are not a local.
I experienced the difficulties myself when I was building our house here in Czech Republic.
Voting, once he is adult, he can vote in both countries if he chooses to, or just in one, being most likely the one where he lives at that moment.
And there are much more practical examples I could give.
So, back to my question, what exact loyalties are preventing being loyal to where ever you live?
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 05, 2020, 05:10:58 AM
Pete, seems you are looking for a fight.  Look someplace else.  You're the one who has a problem with this, not me.  If you don't like mine, that's fine with me.  From reading your responses I don't much like yours either. The question about your citizenship was ACTUALLY a courtesy to find out if you were from the US or someplace that would think the quote was from the Department of the Interior.  I would have understood having to explain it then and your ignorance as to its origin. 

Dabberty, I get to have MY opinion.  I stated it freely.  I'm not telling you, your wife or your son what to do or where to do it, especially in another country. 

So, for this morning, my internet squabbles are done.  There is too much real life squabbling to be done today.

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 05, 2020, 06:29:58 AM
Alan, you can absolutely have your opinion, i'm not saying anything about that.
I'm just very curious now why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties".
I would not expect that there is any harm in explaining that thought no?
'Educate' me if you will, I'm interested why it is bad in your opinion, because as written before, I know only of good reasons to have dual citizenship, and good experiences.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: crashdive123 on June 05, 2020, 11:43:34 AM
Alan, you can absolutely have your opinion, i'm not saying anything about that.
I'm just very curious now why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties".
I would not expect that there is any harm in explaining that thought no?
'Educate' me if you will, I'm interested why it is bad in your opinion, because as written before, I know only of good reasons to have dual citizenship, and good experiences.

I'll admit that I never gave dual citizenship much thought.  I honestly have not opinion on whether it would be good or bad, so I took to Google.  Much of what I found looks like it may cause "issues" for the person with dual citizenship.  I imagine that which countries one is a citizen of would play a role.  Obviously there can be benefits as well.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/040715/when-dual-citizenship-not-good-idea.asp

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 05, 2020, 01:11:24 PM
Thanks for posting that Crash.  I was thinking about Dabberty's question and all I came up with was military issues and possibly some health care issues.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 05, 2020, 08:16:17 PM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do.  My own personal loyalty is to one wife, one country and one God.  That is simply what I believe to be the best way for me.  Whatever benefits there may be in having dual wives, dual citizenships or dual gods, would sooner or later be completely overshadowed by conflicting or competing ends. 

My God tells me he is a jealous God.  I believe him.  When I pledge allegiance to my flag and country I mean it.  When I stand and sing the National Anthem with my hand over my heart it is without reservation and without a plan B.  When I stood in front of God and my family and took that stubborn, hardheaded woman to be my wife. She was the only one I was ever going to do that with.  I will not have another, just one.  I lovingly refer to her as #1 wife.  She's the first and last wife I will ever have. 

I was very fortunate to be born in The United States of America and by the grace of God, in Texas!  For me, personally, I would not dilute my loyalty to the Greatest nation the world has ever known.   It's the first and last country I will ever have.

I don't know if this answered your question or not Dabberty, but it's the answer I've got.


Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 06, 2020, 04:59:14 AM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do.  My own personal loyalty is to one wife, one country and one God.  That is simply what I believe to be the best way for me.  Whatever benefits there may be in having dual wives, dual citizenships or dual gods, would sooner or later be completely overshadowed by conflicting or competing ends. 

My God tells me he is a jealous God.  I believe him.  When I pledge allegiance to my flag and country I mean it.  When I stand and sing the National Anthem with my hand over my heart it is without reservation and without a plan B.  When I stood in front of God and my family and took that stubborn, hardheaded woman to be my wife. She was the only one I was ever going to do that with.  I will not have another, just one.  I lovingly refer to her as #1 wife.  She's the first and last wife I will ever have. 

I was very fortunate to be born in The United States of America and by the grace of God, in Texas!  For me, personally, I would not dilute my loyalty to the Greatest nation the world has ever known.   It's the first and last country I will ever have.

I don't know if this answered your question or not Dabberty, but it's the answer I've got.


Alan

 And a Damned fine one it is,  I seriously doubt anyone could answer that question in any clearer way.   
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 06, 2020, 04:13:04 PM
 :hail:

My goodness it's been quiet today!

I saw a meme once that said "All mothers gave birth to a child, but yours gave birth to a legend!"

That was genius, you called in all the standard righteous causes. God, country, the sanctity of marriage and even good 'ol Texas. Can't argue with any of those for sure.

As the Colonel Bogie March plays gently in the back ground I can hear comedian Ron White. As he stands there in his white shirt, collar open. He holds a glass and cigar in one hand and as he takes a sip of scotch, he is paraphrased as saying "There! That oughta shut 'em up!"

Gotta hand it to ya Alan, good one!  :hail: :cheers:
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 06, 2020, 06:38:48 PM
Yes Pete.  There are people who actually believe those things and live them.


Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 07, 2020, 01:42:08 PM
Alan, it's definitely your answer, no discussion about it :-) it seems something from a old western movie, just the whole sunset part is missing.
Personally I do not compare a wife with a country, it is like comparing a 4 handed thai massage with Dolmar 166 chainsaw. Both great things and hard to find a good one, but very different.

Just out of curiosity, do think badly about your great great (perhaps a few more greats in there) parents who left Scotland or perhaps Ireland and moved to the US in search for a better live?
Knowing the Scottish, as proud as they are, when they arrived in the US, they still hold up their Scottish/Irish banner and traditions, but also became registered Americans at one point in time.
One of the earliest forms of Dual Citizenship I would say.

Am I right to assume that you have not traveled outside of the US borders?
There is this distinct difference between people who have traveled abroad, and those who haven't.
I do not mean this in a way of good and bad differences.
Those who have traveled abroad are more open towards other cultures, different ways of thinking, study other languages, more engaged in worldly problems, open to emigrate to other countries, to say without fear that the beer from country X is actually better then the beer from his own country :-), etc.
Those who never left their owner borders, you can recognize them quickly. You strike me as this as well.
They are usually very proud people, local beer is the best, my language is the greatest, we did this and that always like that so no need to change, those new people are outsides and don't belong here, etc, my country is the greatest, etc.
Again, this is not in any way meant to point a finger as in this is good and that is bad, it is just a clear difference.

Anyway, although your answer is nice. but i was more curious about why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties", and what loyalties those would be.
Unless you are living in a state of mind where you expect war to happen at any time, and then you would have to choose for which country you will fight.
But i hope thats not the case, it is not a nice and relaxed way of living.

I'm fine with ending this discussion, you have your idea's about it, I have my thoughts + experiences, I respect yours and I hope you respect mine.

Have a great day !

PS, you should visit Scotland one day, it is an amazing place with a strong history, and whilst you're there, visit a few whisky distilleries where you can taste whisky at it purest form!
I've done twice a week roadtrip there already, one with friends, one with the wife, and for sure there will be one still coming once my son is 18 :-)
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 07, 2020, 05:18:53 PM
I have been into Mexico, and not very far into Mexico.  I have not traveled to everywhere in the US yet so the rest of the World will have to wait.  I Majored in History in college with a Minor in Agriculture (don't see many of those but they were ready to get rid of me).  I then got a Masters of Education and taught World History and Texas History for a bunch of years (it was my second or third or fourth career depending on the definition of career).  Sometimes, given my chosen field of education, I find it odd that I did not, and still do not have the desire to travel.  I really do enjoy staying home.  I suppose the difference is that I love my country.  I think it is great and I'm eternally grateful to be born here and a part of it.

My ancestry is Scotch/Irish, Italian, English, and American Indian (I have more Native American blood than Liz Warren, but not by much).  Yes, they came here to start a better life.  The Scotch/Irish that gave me my name, it is rumored, came here running from the law.  The Italians changed their name from Russo to Rossi somewhere out in the Atlantic on the way over.  When they finally settled in South Texas around 1900, Grandpa told the kids they weren't going to speak Italian any more they were going to learn and speak the language where they lived.  So, they all learned Spanish.... but spoke English in school.  The English gave me my middle name "Rhodes".   One of my maternal G-grandfather's grandfather married a Cherokee woman and gave me that tiny drop of Indian.  Two branches of my maternal lineage were members of "The Old 300" families that came to Texas with Steven F. Austin's colony, one branch of which were some of the first "Texas Rangers", the Tumlinsons.

I suppose it is simply a difference of ideologies where you do not view your citizenship as I do.  That is certainly your choice and mine.  I am a resident of Texas, a Southerner, but Ultimately I am a Citizen of the United States of America.  I fly the American flag, not the Italian, Scottish, Irish, English flags nor a Cherokee banner.  I am an American, first and last.  Yes all those people came from someplace else.  Each group of them became Americans and left their homelands, families and nationalities behind.  They did not divide their loyalties.  Joe Rossi, first generation American, turned 19 when the US entered WWI.  He went back to a continent he was only one generation remove from and fought in a horrific war.  He died of influenza on the ship on the way home. He was an American.

I'm not sure I can explain it further without redundancy. 

Regardless of any "Romantics" my posts conjure up for you or anyone else, I always try my best to be truthful and sincere.  Even my sarcasm is sincere.

(oh, and my eyes hurt today from sweating in our Hellish heat so my proofreading is possibly faulty)

Alan


Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Phaedrus on June 09, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 09, 2020, 05:29:06 PM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I refuse to expand on that at all...... and that's all I have to say about that.... 

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: crashdive123 on June 09, 2020, 05:42:08 PM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

And yet you continue to drop little cluster bombs in those threads that you seem to dislike in order to ---- what ---- agitate?
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 10, 2020, 07:05:07 AM
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

 Isn't that just like a progressive,  they'll stop at nothing about insisting on running your life,  through force if need be, but they don't have the courtesy to listen to you complain about it,  it could very well be a clue as why your "one wife" might have thought likewise.  ???   

 While it's the minority progressives/liberals/and socialist in this country who are the loudest, I'm pretty sure that it's the right wing thinkers who still have the majority God bless their pee pickin' hearts as Ernie Ford used to say.   (grin)
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 10, 2020, 10:10:04 PM
I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft

Why wait for others to do that, why not start yourself?
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 11, 2020, 04:15:30 AM

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

 Seriously,  Dabberty is right,  you aren't required to read or post in any threads that you aren't comfortable with or that you may find offensive, and he makes a good point that the content in this forum is not dependent on what others post collectively as much as it depends on what each of us post individually,  it is in fact what you (we) post that drives a conversation in a specific direction.
 So, don't wait for others to start a discussion on a topic that you are interested in that pertains to your definition of the art or skills of Bushcraft,  many of us will continue to feed your thread with posts having to due with that topic,  the list of potential topics is vast, friction fire, gear, knives, cooking, shelters, sleep systems,  other cutting tools,  bus crafting with guns for sport, survival, or protection,  packable fishing tackle, and the list goes on,  pick one and get the ball rolling. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: madmaxine on June 13, 2020, 04:00:45 PM
Since our travel has been limited somewhat due to the Rona (cue segue)  I've been building things that go bang,  More on that soon.  I got some bug that started gastrointestinal then morphed into a "middle of the night headache/ daytime sniffles" thing.  Rona?  Beats me.  Kelly has been after me to get tested,  but what's the point. 

"Mr A,  you have/ don't have the antibodies." 

"So what should I do?"

"Take two aspirin and don't call me unless you're really really sick."

In other words,  sam ting, different day.

My daily life has changed very little.  Infrequent trips to stores.  Wash my hands.  Lost some more weight on my second round of keto.  Sub 200 now.   Played around with a buncha gun parts and a drill press (Hint: Glock clones are the easiest).  I do wear a kerchief in the stores as a nod to the many elderly down here (I'm NOT one of them.  lol).  Don't casually shake hands.  Did a couple of Dr. appointments on Zoom (Kinda convenient).

Kelly's officially retired.  We are headed to the cabin soon.  Summer projects are a covered back porch.  A primitive shave horse to make self bows.  Trout and smallmouth fishing.  And whitewater paddling.  We'll likely come home about camping time here.  No Greg.  That's not in Sept.  lol.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 13, 2020, 05:14:45 PM
Congrats on the weight loss.  I am a pig.   :-X
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: madmaxine on June 13, 2020, 06:33:26 PM
I was a little worried about starting another round of keto with the Rona still out making people sick.  Keto dampens the immune system "they" say.  Well I have something to say to "they"...
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: hayshaker on June 18, 2020, 09:35:48 PM
oh my what a thread. i'm glad we did'nt drag  religeon into this whew.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 19, 2020, 05:55:59 AM
oh my what a thread. i'm glad we did'nt drag  religeon into this whew.

  LOL,  by the looks of the world situation today It certainly couldn't hurt if some folks got infected with a little religion and a whole lot of following the Golden Rule,  and respect for others and their property.

  Just saying.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 19, 2020, 06:12:58 AM
:hail:

My goodness it's been quiet today!

I saw a meme once that said "All mothers gave birth to a child, but yours gave birth to a legend!"

That was genius, you called in all the standard righteous causes. God, country, the sanctity of marriage and even good 'ol Texas. Can't argue with any of those for sure.

As the Colonel Bogie March plays gently in the back ground I can hear comedian Ron White. As he stands there in his white shirt, collar open. He holds a glass and cigar in one hand and as he takes a sip of scotch, he is paraphrased as saying "There! That oughta shut 'em up!"

Gotta hand it to ya Alan, good one!  :hail: :cheers:

 Hey Pete, I don't think I've ever heard the Colonel Bogie March,  could you hum a few bars for us ???
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 19, 2020, 10:55:57 AM
My apologies Moe, Bogey was misspelled as Bogie.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: windy on June 24, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
Pete, thanks for your comments.  Moe, can I guess that you don't wear a mask when you go to the grocery store?
windy
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 24, 2020, 01:44:10 PM
Pete, thanks for your comments.  Moe, can I guess that you don't wear a mask when you go to the grocery store?
windy

 Why would you guess that ???

 I believe in the rule of law and an orderly society,  I also know that the law is not always just or right,  but it's always the law (until it's changed),  those who don't obey the law or don't act in an orderly fashion are criminals and should be treated as such.
 Not only do I wear a mask, but I keep my social distance from others,  and obey the directional arrows taped on the floor as well as the six foot markers,  I shop between 6:00am and 7:30 am (the time set aside for seniors to shop), while I may not agree with the powers that be on the extent of the shut down of our social and economic systems I do my part to keep society orderly,  not because some power mad mayor or governor commands me to but because keeping order is vital in times such as these.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 24, 2020, 05:29:14 PM
Pete, thanks for your comments.  Moe, can I guess that you don't wear a mask when you go to the grocery store?
windy

 Why would you guess that ???

 I believe in the rule of law and an orderly society,  I also know that the law is not always just or right,  but it's always the law (until it's changed),  those who don't obey the law or don't act in an orderly fashion are criminals and should be treated as such.
 Not only do I wear a mask, but I keep my social distance from others,  and obey the directional arrows taped on the floor as well as the six foot markers,  I shop between 6:00am and 7:30 am (the time set aside for seniors to shop), while I may not agree with the powers that be on the extent of the shut down of our social and economic systems I do my part to keep society orderly,  not because some power mad mayor or governor commands me to but because keeping order is vital in times such as these.

Where the heck is that dang "LIKE" button!  The libs just can't understand that conservatism is following the established rules, not defying them.


Alan
 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 24, 2020, 05:32:28 PM
Even though we have no mandates to do so in effect here, I wear a mask when I'm out and I can't get the virus or give it to anyone.  I wear the mask because it's the right thing to do both from the standpoint of setting an example and just plain old common courtesy to my fellow man.  I wear the mask in leu of wearing a big "Scarlet C".

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 24, 2020, 08:20:40 PM
I have to wear one to get into the local clinic.  Where I live nobody is wearing masks except at the clinic. 

It is rare to see anyone with a mask in stores.  This is both employees and customers.  At the present time there are zero corona virus cases in the county. 

One medical expert says masks work.  Another says they don't. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: madmaxine on June 25, 2020, 10:33:19 AM
We're traveling through GA right now.  Pretty much sporadic masking in urban areas, not much in rural.  No we're not going through Atlanta.  Lol.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 25, 2020, 07:49:44 PM
From day one they told us that wearing a mask won't keep a person from getting the virus.  If the virus is in the air you breathe, then it's going to go right through all but the very best masks. 

The mask is to reduce the virus stream coming from an infected person and will help in reducing the spread of the disease.

Since infected people start shedding the virus before they show symptoms, IF they show symptoms, then their wearing a mask helps keep uninfected people from being as easily exposed to the virus. 

There is still a multitude of ways to transmit the virus from person to person, but the infected, wearing masks will slow the spread until widespread vaccinations can occur.

From day one they told us to wear a mask, not touch face, eyes, nose, eyes, etc., wash hands and do the social distancing thing.  WE didn't do that. WE bought and hoarded toilet paper and hand sanitizer.

Humans? Go figure....


Alan


Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: madmaxine on June 26, 2020, 09:42:16 AM
Naaaa.  Everclear.  You can sanitize anything.  Even your brain.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 26, 2020, 11:44:22 AM
Grain alcohol and grape juice did it in the sixties.   :-[
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: imnukensc on June 26, 2020, 11:54:19 AM
My homemade hand sanitizer is made with 190 proof Everclear and aloe gel.  I can get a buzz just by cleaning my hands.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Mannlicher on June 27, 2020, 05:55:11 AM
Who knew we had so may (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif)s and pussies here?
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 27, 2020, 05:59:23 AM
Who knew we had so may (http://bladesandbushcraft.com/Smileys/krystl-white/censored.gif)s and pussies here?

  ROTFLMAO
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: madmaxine on June 27, 2020, 01:32:09 PM
NC's democratic gov made masks in public mandatory last week.  I asked Sam how I was supposed to kayak ww with a mask on.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 27, 2020, 09:31:48 PM
The City of Victoria, TX made the wearing of masks mandatory this past week. The City and County Police can't even keep up with folks that are committing actual crimes.  So, now they are going to be on mask patrol? 

Folks don't understand that making unenforcible rules and laws is worse than doing nothing. 

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 27, 2020, 11:55:23 PM
I really can't understand that adult people simply cant comply with something so stupid simple as wearing a mask....
 
Thank god here it is different, and now almost all those rules are reversed again.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 28, 2020, 05:31:52 AM
I really can't understand that adult people simply cant comply with something so stupid simple as wearing a mask....
 
Thank god here it is different, and now almost all those rules are reversed again.

 You've actually answered your own question with your statement,  Europeans have been programed over eons to do what they are told (COMPLY), America was born from folks who came here to escape having to conform or comply, in most of the world people do what they are told by the powers that be "or else",  here we take better to suggestions than we do to mandates or orders.   
 Ask us nicely and explain why we should follow recommendations and most people will go along with what you suggest,  telling us to do something simply because you made a rule, and then trying to enforce it with some sort of punishment is the quickest way to get people to reject your commands. 
 Most folks here especially country folks would rather die free than live on their knees taking orders from their masters.
 Another thing that you don't understand is what's really going on in the US today,  it really has very little to do with the corona virus, the pandemic, or racial unrest,  it's actually about abuse of power in a power grab by the left in a battle between keeping a democratic republic, Constitutionally mandated form of government or turning this country over to socialism and possibly a new order one world government where individual rights are replaced by collective rights and where self rule is replaced by fascist dictates.
 I can very well imagine that this all sounds like the tin hat ravings of a senile old man to you and others across the globe,  but it's not, it's the reality of what is driving the radical left to keep people separated and controlled,  and it's why they are encouraging the rioting, looting, and attacks on police and the rule law that we are experiencing today,  not only here but in other parts of the world as well.
 One of the dictates of the Marxist play book is "never let a good disaster go to waste",  and they aren't, they want to see this unique from of self rule government toppled,  and they are doing everything within their power to see that it happens. 
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 28, 2020, 02:13:13 PM
I believe in the rule of law and an orderly society,  I also know that the law is not always just or right,  but it's always the law (until it's changed),  those who don't obey the law or don't act in an orderly fashion are criminals and should be treated as such.
 Not only do I wear a mask, but I keep my social distance from others,  and obey the directional arrows taped on the floor as well as the six foot markers,  I shop between 6:00am and 7:30 am (the time set aside for seniors to shop), while I may not agree with the powers that be on the extent of the shut down of our social and economic systems I do my part to keep society orderly,  not because some power mad mayor or governor commands me to but because keeping order is vital in times such as these.

That was on Wednesday. Four days later, on Sunday:  :coffee:

America was born from folks who came here to escape having to conform or comply, in most of the world people do what they are told by the powers that be "or else",  here we take better to suggestions than we do to mandates or orders.   
 Ask us nicely and explain why we should follow recommendations and most people will go along with what you suggest,  telling us to do something simply because you made a rule, and then trying to enforce it with some sort of punishment is the quickest way to get people to reject your commands. 
 Most folks here especially country folks would rather die free than live on their knees taking orders from their masters.
 

    Uuhmm, dichotomous thoughts. And yet I agree with both. One on a practical level and the other on a philosophical level.  :coffee:
   
 :soap:  And now...... on to the rant!

    I have not come to terms with the people suited up with long guns, side arms, bandolier of spare ammo magazines, and combat knives strapped to their leg as they complain about having to wear a mask or stay home for their own health. I understand they are free to do as they please. They are also free to die of their own selfish stupidity.
     If they crowd the beaches and storm the bars, then they should not occupy the ICU's when things turn sour. If they want to talk big and act tough, then they can leave the limited medical care facilities to those citizens that tried to do the right thing.
    There is a time and place to exercise our rights and freedoms. But, squawking over wearing a mask is not it.
    I know that if you don't protest the little things, the encroachment on freedoms will continue to grow. But really, breaking out the spray and pray weapons for mask wearing and social distancing seems out of place. It would appear as if some were over reacting.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 28, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
Kinda like you Pete?

I have not seen too many bandoliers.  I have not seen any of them say it was because we have to wear masks.  They have protected some property from looters and arsonists though.  You are right that giving up freedoms a little at a time is a poor practice.

By the way using $10 words like dichotomous doesn't get the point across as well as saying two different avenues of thought.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 28, 2020, 06:31:45 PM
No commando types at the crowded beaches, tubing the rivers, or bar hopping like there's no coronavirus.  Those are all the leftist entitled bunch that will be taxing the resources of the hospitals and tax payers, .... again...

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Pete Bog on June 28, 2020, 07:19:22 PM
Armed Protestors inside the Michigan State Capitol .

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/495556-armed-protesters-demonstrate-inside-michigan-state-capitol

April 30th? Corona virus restriction complaints was the issue I believe. One of many news reports that covered the incident.

reprimand for my control of the English language is duly noted. Oops, sorry Stan, I'll try to use little words from here on out.  :cheers:

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: wsdstan on June 28, 2020, 10:12:19 PM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 28, 2020, 11:18:08 PM
You've actually answered your own question with your statement,  Europeans have been programed over eons to do what they are told (COMPLY), America was born from folks who came here to escape having to conform or comply, in most of the world people do what they are told by the powers that be "or else",  here we take better to suggestions than we do to mandates or orders. 
Sorry Moe, but that eon story is complete and utter nonsense. Travel once to Europe, spend some time here, and then you will realize that what you just said is the biggest and freshest pile of bat droppings  :D
And America was born out of mostly 2 kinds of people. Those who seek a new life/opportunities, and those escaping the law due to criminal behavior.
Thats in every history book, that is in every records that still exist of who why they left, that is proven by the records of the court of those days that still exist, and so on.
But I have to admit, your version sounds very romantic  ;D

Fun fact, my mother did hundreds of family tree's leading way back to 1500, and she always showed me those funny and interesting cases.
Also one member of my family left to the US, due to being married to the 'wrong' lady, and no way of divorce without retribution, so he left to the US with another lady.
Another fun story, your ex NHL player of the LA Kings and Mighty Ducks, Dan Bylsma (properly written Bijlsma) is a very far away cousin of mine.
Our family was for generations long ship builders, using mainly the axe, hence our last name Bijlsma, which means 'man with the axe'.
At some point in the US they where looking for ship builders/wood workers, and Dan's ancestors went for it.
Lots of funny stories.


Another thing that you don't understand is what's really going on in the US today,  it really has very little to do with the corona virus, the pandemic, or racial unrest,  it's actually about abuse of power in a power grab by the left in a battle between keeping a democratic republic, Constitutionally mandated form of government or turning this country over to socialism and possibly a new order one world government where individual rights are replaced by collective rights and where self rule is replaced by fascist dictates.
I'm not in the US, and I believe you there are a lot of things going on right now.
But why can't it be so simple as in: "ohw sh!t, old and weak people are dying, and my very small share in preventing or trying to prevent that is wearing a mask, lets do that for a while".
Blaming everything on the government (chosen by the people) is a cheap way out.
In the end, the government is not living in your house/street. You yourself decide if you want to contribute in preventing this disease to spread or not.
If I understand it right, you are not the youngest anymore. Would you not feel better going in a shop and everyone wearing a mask, instead of not wearing anything and protesting, burning other peoples stuff in the streets and so on?

The whole BLM stuff that sadly even reach Europe now, is causing problems here as well.
It is very noticeable that the protesters are not those who have studied, who have steady jobs and so on.
Street names / city squares and buildings with the names of historical heroes are being renamed now, because those heroes where linked with being part of transporting slaves.
But they also forget that those hero's build the country to what it is now. Slave transport was a small thing they did, the bigger and more important thing was the seas wars they fought with the English and Spanish, and defeating them for example, leading us to not being under Spanish /  English rule any more.

Perhaps I am too simple in thinking: let the past be the past, acknowledge  the bad things, cherish the good things, and move on. We live now, not 500 years ago.
And if you are unhappy with your life, get back in (evening) school learn something and work for your dreams, instead of screaming, rioting, looting and damaging other peoples properties.

Did you know that bringing down the "iron curtain" aka communism rule by the russians, all started in Prague, Czech Republic, by students peacefully protesting.
Not by rioting/looting and that kinda crap.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 29, 2020, 06:11:01 AM
You've actually answered your own question with your statement,  Europeans have been programed over eons to do what they are told (COMPLY), America was born from folks who came here to escape having to conform or comply, in most of the world people do what they are told by the powers that be "or else",  here we take better to suggestions than we do to mandates or orders. 
Sorry Moe, but that eon story is complete and utter nonsense. Travel once to Europe, spend some time here, and then you will realize that what you just said is the biggest and freshest pile of bat droppings  :D
And America was born out of mostly 2 kinds of people. Those who seek a new life/opportunities, and those escaping the law due to criminal behavior.
Thats in every history book, that is in every records that still exist of who why they left, that is proven by the records of the court of those days that still exist, and so on.
But I have to admit, your version sounds very romantic  ;D

Fun fact, my mother did hundreds of family tree's leading way back to 1500, and she always showed me those funny and interesting cases.
Also one member of my family left to the US, due to being married to the 'wrong' lady, and no way of divorce without retribution, so he left to the US with another lady.
Another fun story, your ex NHL player of the LA Kings and Mighty Ducks, Dan Bylsma (properly written Bijlsma) is a very far away cousin of mine.
Our family was for generations long ship builders, using mainly the axe, hence our last name Bijlsma, which means 'man with the axe'.
At some point in the US they where looking for ship builders/wood workers, and Dan's ancestors went for it.
Lots of funny stories.


Another thing that you don't understand is what's really going on in the US today,  it really has very little to do with the corona virus, the pandemic, or racial unrest,  it's actually about abuse of power in a power grab by the left in a battle between keeping a democratic republic, Constitutionally mandated form of government or turning this country over to socialism and possibly a new order one world government where individual rights are replaced by collective rights and where self rule is replaced by fascist dictates.
I'm not in the US, and I believe you there are a lot of things going on right now.
But why can't it be so simple as in: "ohw sh!t, old and weak people are dying, and my very small share in preventing or trying to prevent that is wearing a mask, lets do that for a while".
Blaming everything on the government (chosen by the people) is a cheap way out.
In the end, the government is not living in your house/street. You yourself decide if you want to contribute in preventing this disease to spread or not.
If I understand it right, you are not the youngest anymore. Would you not feel better going in a shop and everyone wearing a mask, instead of not wearing anything and protesting, burning other peoples stuff in the streets and so on?

The whole BLM stuff that sadly even reach Europe now, is causing problems here as well.
It is very noticeable that the protesters are not those who have studied, who have steady jobs and so on.
Street names / city squares and buildings with the names of historical heroes are being renamed now, because those heroes where linked with being part of transporting slaves.
But they also forget that those hero's build the country to what it is now. Slave transport was a small thing they did, the bigger and more important thing was the seas wars they fought with the English and Spanish, and defeating them for example, leading us to not being under Spanish /  English rule any more.

Perhaps I am too simple in thinking: let the past be the past, acknowledge  the bad things, cherish the good things, and move on. We live now, not 500 years ago.
And if you are unhappy with your life, get back in (evening) school learn something and work for your dreams, instead of screaming, rioting, looting and damaging other peoples properties.

Did you know that bringing down the "iron curtain" aka communism rule by the russians, all started in Prague, Czech Republic, by students peacefully protesting.
Not by rioting/looting and that kinda crap.

 Thanks for helping to make my point,  A, I know very little about Europe and it's people except that they are still being ruled over,  of course they won't admit it,  but they are still subjects of their governments and not the citizens they like to believe they are.
 B, You know very little about America or it's people otherwise you wouldn't be looking at things here as anywhere near simple, they aren't,  the problems that we are experiencing are not virus related,  they are mostly politically motivated,  our people have no problem with wearing masks, staying home, or social distancing, we've been doing it since the beginning of the year.
 Our issues with government intrusion is not that they are trying to protect society from ,  it's that they are using the pandemic by over reaching and by instituting rules and restrictions that make absolutely no sense that limit peoples ability to do simple things that don't endanger the public,  like planting and tending private gardens on privately owned property for their own use,  they stop people from using their small boats or from fishing on an individual basis,  the political left is not only enabling the rioters but encouraging the looting, burning, property damage and attacks on first responders who are trying to bring back order and save lives and property.
 In short, this is an organized war being waged to destroy our country and our culture, and in part a war against President Trump and his political and social policies and to influence the next national election,  so no my friend it's about as far from simple as it can get.
 What we are experiencing here has nothing to do with Corvid/19, social injustice, or race relations,  and has everything to do with people control, destroying Constitutional self rule, the rule of law, installing socialism, and insuring that the radical left rules this country and it's people way into the future.
 While it could be that I'm misunderstanding your writings,  but to set the record straight, it's not my people who are rioting, looting, burning, destroying property, tearing down national monuments, and killing police officers,  those that are demanding anarchy are the minions of the radical left.
 I don't know where you get your news from,  but most Americans do wear masks when out in public, when shopping or otherwise engaged in their everyday business where they interact with others,  except for a few pockets in the most rural areas of the country where the virus hasn't invaded all businesses require patrons to wear masks,  limit the number of people allowed in stores and shops, non essential businesses are still closed, banking must be done via drive up windows or by mail.
 In other words no one is complaining about masks and social distancing,  what people are complaining about is not being able to buy vegetable seeds or have a key made to replace the one that got lost or damaged that unlocks their homes and starts their cars,  what they don't like is rioters burning down their cities, attacking citizens and looting businesses, and they don't appreciate being kept locked up in their homes while their neighborhoods are being destroyed.

 Yes, it would be nice if things were as simple here as you seem to think they are,  but sadly, they are not. ???   
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 29, 2020, 07:21:48 PM
My ancestors came to this side of the Atlantic for the same reason immigrants come today.  Freedom.

Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 30, 2020, 12:22:26 AM
My information comes A the news, B dear friends living there since a couple of years and C colleagues with who we have weekly team conference calls.
Well Moe, more and more I start to lean towards what you wrote yourself:\
I can very well imagine that this all sounds like the tin hat ravings of a senile old man
You're idea on how Europe is being ruled, it's just funny. Feel free in believing yourself and not even listen to someone who actually lives there :-)
Good luck with blaming and naming everything and everyone else.

Alan, what happened to the rumors of running from the law..?  Or did you mean freedom from the law that those ancestors perhaps broke?

I'm done with this topic, it is way too political. I thought I would add some insights from this side of the ocean, but it is useless I noticed.
I'll stick with bushcrafty things again.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 30, 2020, 04:10:07 AM
It's not hard for freedom loving people to run afoul of oppressive, tyrannical laws.....  (not to say that our current Liberal leaders aren't trying their dead level best to impose those types of laws on us).

I majored in History, taught History and have a Masters of Education. I was also the Textbook Coordinator for our school district.  Not that those things are anything special, but I've got a fair idea of what is in a lot of the History books, and I have had the opportunity to view how those History books have changed in their content and scope over the past +/- 100 years.  The revisionists seem to be winning one baby step at a time. 

I will admit that since my retirement I have let my reading lapse to almost nothing.  I can't say that I haven't enjoyed NOT having every conversation digress into a History lesson. 

The last major conflict that the United States endured on our own soil ended in 1865, and aside from the "Indian Wars" (our last foray into ethnic cleansing) and some Bandit raids on the southern border, the concept of freedom in the US has not been marred or interrupted for over 150 years. The same cannot be said for the whole of Europe as two World Wars, an oppressive Communist regime and instances of ethnic cleansing have occurred in that same time period.  Although we (the US) was involved in some of that, and it certainly affected us, it did not happen in our back yards as it did in Europe.  So, my point is, that we are comparing different concepts of Freedom, one that has not endured the atrocities of war and murderous oppression and another that is only recently removed from that. 

There is certainly not enough time, space or desire on my part to go through it all and cite my sources.  It's 5:00 AM here and I am supposed to be out in my shop deciding on my day's activities (at least until #1 wife changes my plans)

I too need to be doing something enjoyable.  Politics is hardly that....


Alan
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Moe M. on June 30, 2020, 05:41:55 AM
It's not hard for freedom loving people to run afoul of oppressive, tyrannical laws.....  (not to say that our current Liberal leaders aren't trying their dead level best to impose those types of laws on us).

I majored in History, taught History and have a Masters of Education. I was also the Textbook Coordinator for our school district.  Not that those things are anything special, but I've got a fair idea of what is in a lot of the History books, and I have had the opportunity to view how those History books have changed in their content and scope over the past +/- 100 years.  The revisionists seem to be winning one baby step at a time. 

I will admit that since my retirement I have let my reading lapse to almost nothing.  I can't say that I haven't enjoyed NOT having every conversation digress into a History lesson. 

The last major conflict that the United States endured on our own soil ended in 1865, and aside from the "Indian Wars" (our last foray into ethnic cleansing) and some Bandit raids on the southern border, the concept of freedom in the US has not been marred or interrupted for over 150 years. The same cannot be said for the whole of Europe as two World Wars, an oppressive Communist regime and instances of ethnic cleansing have occurred in that same time period.  Although we (the US) was involved in some of that, and it certainly affected us, it did not happen in our back yards as it did in Europe.  So, my point is, that we are comparing different concepts of Freedom, one that has not endured the atrocities of war and murderous oppression and another that is only recently removed from that. 

There is certainly not enough time, space or desire on my part to go through it all and cite my sources.  It's 5:00 AM here and I am supposed to be out in my shop deciding on my day's activities (at least until #1 wife changes my plans)

I too need to be doing something enjoyable.  Politics is hardly that....


Alan

 Excellent post Alan.
Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Dabberty on June 30, 2020, 06:43:35 AM
The last major conflict that the United States endured on our own soil ended in 1865, and aside from the "Indian Wars" (our last foray into ethnic cleansing) and some Bandit raids on the southern border, the concept of freedom in the US has not been marred or interrupted for over 150 years. The same cannot be said for the whole of Europe as two World Wars, an oppressive Communist regime and instances of ethnic cleansing have occurred in that same time period.  Although we (the US) was involved in some of that, and it certainly affected us, it did not happen in our back yards as it did in Europe.  So, my point is, that we are comparing different concepts of Freedom, one that has not endured the atrocities of war and murderous oppression and another that is only recently removed from that. 
That is a very narrow point of view.
Is it not convenient to start your timeframe after all the indian & mexican cleansing...?
What about slavery, is that worthy of mentioning, since it was sort of legal to kill slaves over nothing?

Perhaps it is better phrased this way "In the last 150 years the us prefers to start wars overseas, or mingle in overseas civil wars"....?
It's pretty common knowledge that oil control is a major reason for some of those latest wars :)
If you ever feel like catching up reading on where the US is busy, here is a simple link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

Or another way of looking it at is that people who so controlled (as you think Europeans are) would never start a war. But since there where 2 World Wars (not just in Europe as you wrote), it seems they are not so controlled and programmed as you claim. With this way of looking at it, it seems the US is more controlled since they claim to have no inland issue's.

Alan, although politics is crap, I like these discussions with you, even when we do not agree.


Moe, thank god for Alan, if he would not be posting, you would be so lost.

Title: Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
Post by: Alan R McDaniel Jr on June 30, 2020, 08:50:11 PM
I didn't start after anything.  I gave a time period to qualify my assertions.  In fact I believe I noted the Indian thing and called it ethnic cleansing.  Actually it was not ethnic cleansing, it was extermination, similar to the early 1940's Germany only much more open and brutal.

Regarding the legality of killing slaves.  (I will preface my remarks with my opinion that Chattel Slavery is one of the most abhorrent atrocities humans have visited on one another). While it was certainly done at times, I would have to research the legality of doing so.  I seem to recall that the murder or mistreatment of slaves was not entirely legal.  In addition to its questionable legality, it would have been extremely stupid to kill or injure a slave.  Slaves were owned to work.  If they were killed or injured, they could not work.  They were also extremely valuable. 

And the truth of the matter of slavery is that the bulk of human History, in nearly all cultures, slavery has existed.  We, as humans have only recently, the blink of an eye in our written History, abandoned Chattel Slavery as an institution.

 
"Perhaps it is better phrased this way "In the last 150 years the us prefers to start wars overseas, or mingle in overseas civil wars"....?"

Perhaps it's not better.  At great expense and loss of American lives, The US pulled Europe's fat out of the fire, twice.  The first time when we were very much into isolationism and only reluctantly the second time because WE were attacked.

Oh, and I don't think there was any Mexican ethnic cleansing.  I lived much of my adult life in an area that was and still is about 98% Hispanic.  There was no Mexican ethnic cleansing.

wikipedia? really?  I'll pass.  I use wikipedia to look up when movie stars were born and died, not as a credible Historical resource. 

The reason I referred to the "whole of Europe" is because that is where the discussion was centered, not the only place the Wars were fought.... 

I cited my credentials, I guess I assumed that you would understand that I knew they were "World Wars"... but ass-u-me  got me again...