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61
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by Grumpy on August 01, 2020, 07:38:06 AM »
Well, Stan's done and so is Grumpy. I guess that gives me the last word.


 LOL,  Your arrogance runneth over,  I said I was done with you,  not the conversation or the forum,  consider yourself ignored, an unrecognized entity,  what ever floats your boat or inflates your bloated ego.   
62
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by Pete Bog on July 31, 2020, 11:17:39 PM »
Well, Stan's done and so is Grumpy. I guess that gives me the last word.

Two points.
First: There's a big difference between some looter coming in the front door looking to do you harm and a some group of unmarked police snatching someone off the streets. If you can't tell the difference, well, good luck.

Second: If you are not gathering intelligence for your personal use from multiple sources, you may very well be taken by surprise and possibly doomed to failure.
     The United States uses 17 publicly named intelligence gathering agencies. I don't have access to any of them. If they think it's a good idea, why shouldn't I? Listen closely to news from around the world and you can glean a little for yourself.
     Example: the Bretton Woods agreement collapsed in the early 70's, but a hold over is: the US dollar is still the international currency. A couple months ago Singapore Central bank proposed that a new international currency be found. Other Central Banks are interested. Do you have any idea of the chaos that will rain down upon our heads if this gains traction?  You won't find this on FOX or MSNBC until it's to late.
     Pandemic brewing in China? I knew about it in January, pulled the trigger on topping off supplies in February. The information didn't come from the commercial network news outlets. It wasn't sensational enough back then.
     If your avoiding a news outlet because it doesn't agree with your point of view, or you think it's run by a bunch of radical kooks, you are self limiting yourself. You need to know what the other side is doing in order to make informed decisions.
     There, got the last word. You promised. Thanks.
63
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by wsdstan on July 31, 2020, 08:19:37 PM »
Interesting that you say too many blacks and browns are being killed by police but leave whites out of the comment.  More whites are killed by police than blacks or hispanics according to what I read.

I acknowledge that is a misleading statistic as whites outnumber blacks and hispanics in total population so they are killed at a higher rate than whites but I don't know about what happens if you look a geographic areas where the % of ethnic groups might be higher or lower.  I think what this is telling us is in certain urban areas of the United States there is a high number of law breakers who get into confrontations with police. 

   

64
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by windy on July 31, 2020, 06:49:13 PM »
Back in the late 60's, I met some people who were talking about an upcoming demonstration--sort of a multi-protest; several complaints.  One of them said "hey, the cops are deputizing a bunch of loggers; they're gonna kick butt!  I said "I don't buy that--but I'll go see for myself."  I planned ahead, found a place out of the street where I could watch, and sure enough, there was violence going on, from both sides, that appeared excessive.  Then the police came in and chased all of us onlookers into the street (apparently I wasn't the only one) and once we were in the street, trying to stay out of everybody's way, we were beat on by the enforcement and told to F**K OFF by the people who wanted to fight the authorities.  I didn't go to jail, but it was a near thing.  Decided "no more protests".
A couple of years later, some guys at school were talking about this terrible government we were fighting for in Viet Nam.  I was used to the notion that we were more honorable than that, but, being a slow learner, I said "I'll go see for myself".  I walked into a recruiting office and signed up for 3 years, and volunteered for Southeast Asia (couldn't specify; I had a different guarantee).  They never sent me; didn't hear a shot fired in anger until I got out.  Eventually, I decided that the honorable people were the ones who went,came back, and then argued one way or another, but by the end of it, I was pretty sure that we were in the wrong war at the wrong time with the wrong leadership, especially in the pentagon.  At least, this time I wasn't exactly a bystander; I'd paid at least SOME dues.
Now I'm 75, and too P.O.'d at the government to risk hitting the streets without taking sides.  I see the jerks causing the problems, I see the protesters trying to exercise their First Amendment rights, and I'd love to be able to sort them out and hit the jerks with a paintball or something so they could get what they deserve, and leave the others alone.  Because THERE ARE too many unarmed black and brown people killed by cops; it's been increasing all this past year, seems almost like one a week for quite awhile.  And the violence I'm seeing from several sources (including BBC and CBC, among others) HAS BEEN coming from both sides.   But this time I'm not gonna go see for myself.
windy
65
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by Grumpy on July 31, 2020, 05:57:08 PM »
Pete you ought to review some of your earlier comments regarding this insurrection we are watching unfold.  It appears to me that the peaceful protesters you say exist are quickly taken over by the paid voluntary terrorists and those terrorists commit the crimes while the peaceful part of the protest dies off.

In an earlier post you advocated shooting looters on sight.  What you actually said is this:
"Don't get me wrong, I believe in shooting looters on sight as they come in the door." Now you say  arresting them with plainclothes police in unmarked cars would be a violation of their rights.   So you think it is fine to shoot them but by golly don't arrest them unless you got lights sirens and patches on your clothes.

You recommend news outlets that are anti-US or liberal to the point of being ridiculous.  NPR and BBC are just as biased as main stream media.  Al-Jazeera?  Don't make me laugh.  It is the State owned media arm of Qatar.  Here is a Wikipedia article on this stellar new organization.  How much of it is true is probably subject to debate but several of the events are accurate. 

I am not going to get into further discussion about this as I would rather be talking about making stuff and flintlocks or stuff like that.

Well said Stan,  I'm done with him as well.   :cheers:
66
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by wsdstan on July 31, 2020, 05:00:58 PM »
Pete you ought to review some of your earlier comments regarding this insurrection we are watching unfold.  It appears to me that the peaceful protesters you say exist are quickly taken over by the paid voluntary terrorists and those terrorists commit the crimes while the peaceful part of the protest dies off.

In an earlier post you advocated shooting looters on sight.  What you actually said is this:
"Don't get me wrong, I believe in shooting looters on sight as they come in the door." Now you say  arresting them with plainclothes police in unmarked cars would be a violation of their rights.   So you think it is fine to shoot them but by golly don't arrest them unless you got lights sirens and patches on your clothes.

You recommend news outlets that are anti-US or liberal to the point of being ridiculous.  NPR and BBC are just as biased as main stream media.  Al-Jazeera?  Don't make me laugh.  It is the State owned media arm of Qatar.  Here is a Wikipedia article on this stellar new organization.  How much of it is true is probably subject to debate but several of the events are accurate. 

I am not going to get into further discussion about this as I would rather be talking about making stuff and flintlocks or stuff like that. 
67
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by Pete Bog on July 31, 2020, 02:19:46 PM »


How did the people you accurately describe as 'domestic terrorists' become, and I quote, "your peaceful protesters"?
How did I come into possession of these Looney Tunes?
How did you make the leap of logic that I condone, encourage and/or forgive all crimes by these out of control looters and vandals?

Can't find any peaceful demonstrations? Hmmm.
If all you watch and/or listen to is commercial stations, they are selling advertising and the sensational outrageous stories are what sell. Going off the commercial sites to maybe, BBC, NPR, Al Jazeera America, CBC, Irish Times, TED Talks, allows you to see what the rest of the world thinks. They are either neutral or to the left of the right leaning stations most of us use. A person cannot just use these exclusively, of course. A well rounded person looks at a variety of perspectives and then draws his or her own conclusions.

You said:

As to what kind of America I want to live in,  one that is peaceful, orderly,  and respectful of it's citizens,  one that is law abiding,  and one in which our political leaders lead in accordance with the rights and limitations set down in our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

This is a great quote, suitable for framing. But it was preceded by:

You also asked what I thought about the anarchist being rounded up and arrested or "disappeared",  and you asked me if that was the kind of country I wanted,  so my simple answer to you is,  I believe that every anarchist, every domestic terrorist,  and every paid agent who advocates the violent takeover of this country, up to and including those  leftist legislators, governors, and mayors that support and encourage the anarchists should be rounded up as soon as possible and shipped to our prison base in Cuba,  then tried in a military tribunal for treason and sabotage against the United States of America,  what punishment they are given is of no concern,  the more severe the better including banishment from this country for the rest of their lives and beyond

Almost every person you named in this second quote is an American citizen and every proposed action against them is a violation of their constitutional rights. How do you balance those two opposing viewpoints?

Either you support the Constitution or you don't. It appears that you pay insincere lip service to the patriotic "support the Constitution" and then turn around and burn the document when nobody is looking. Which is it?

In a story aired by NPR radio yesterday, a black man was killed by a police officer in Portland a few decades ago. 1960's I think. A choke hold used to kill him was then banned by the city. The police started wearing T-shirts in their off-duty hours that said "Don't Choke 'em, Smoke 'Em!". The implication of course, is just shoot 'em. I appreciate dark gallows humor as much as the next guy, but taking it out of the squad room putting it on a T-shirt to be worn in public is over the line. A thinly veiled threat to the very well being of the citizens. Constitutional rights be damned. 

Wallowing in the mud of personal insults is unbecoming of a gentleman's debate. Generally speaking, the first one to throw a personal insult looses.  "when someone is intent on making a fool of him/herself, don't get in their way",  so my friend,  have at it, I'll take that as a personal win.    :banana:
68
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by Grumpy on July 31, 2020, 10:03:27 AM »
Grumpy,
    You didn't dispute my assessment of your 'disappearing' statement. Wow.
    You didn't answer any of my questions.
    You did reply with the rhetoric of a typical inflammatory AM radio talk show host.
    I understand your allegiance to the LEO community and your loyalty is commendable. But, there are a few rotten apples in the barrel and that is what the peaceful demonstrators and protesters are trying to change.
    If you have connections with the LE community, you can network to make things better. If you haven't because there may be personal repercussions, then maybe to much of the barrel has turned rotten. Scary thought ain't it.
    And nobody wants to address some of the underlying issues. The politicians that are to chicken to raise taxes like they should. Instead, they levy surcharges onto traffic tickets. It puts the law enforcement community into the tax collection business. $350.00 for a stop sign violation. And the reality is, the car stopped, but it was two feet over the stop line painted on the pavement. The ticket isn't about traffic safety, it's about revenue for the city. Of that $350.00, 50 is for the traffic violation. The rest goes for other social programs and city operating expenses. Almost every contact a cop has with the public is excessively expensive and it puts the cop in a bad light. And it's because the politician wants to be reelected. 
    Then there's the "Asset Forfeiture" laws. It's been seriously abused by a few of those bad apples I mentioned earlier. It started out with good intentions and on the face of it, it sounds like a great tool. But it has failed miserably due to the actions of a few greedy LEO's and departments.
    Grumpy, can we continue into the future the way we have in the past? Sure, but some things could be changed for the better. It wouldn't hurt.

    You said, quote "their aim is to tear this country down,  to destroy our history, our culture, our economy, our religious sects, they are in fact committing sabotage against this country, they are enemies of the state without a doubt,  they are organized, they are funded by globalist like George Soros and his ilk and supported by socialist democrat legislators acting against the very oath they swore to when they took office,  and they deserve no less punishment than the terrorist they support."

     You could very well be right on all those counts. I don't know. I don't listen to or watch the extreme left or right political opinion shows.  They  make inflammatory, anger inducing statements with no proof or basis of fact. They are there for entertainment and to sell advertising. They are very convincing and very good at what they do.
     You told me once that I was to cynical and I agreed with you. I also think you could take a more objective look at the programming your listening to and question where they are getting their information. Are their references valid, can they be cross checked with other sources. Do they even have references or is it strictly an opinion piece.
      One thing I have noticed with these people is how they talk. It's in little short staccato statements with regular pauses. Their rhythm of talking seems to be geared to build up trust and then they slap you with a conclusion to make you angry at the injustice of it all. 
      Maybe it's because I'm so cynical, but when I hear that start-stop speech pattern, I start to question its validity.
     If you would indulge me for just one more paragraph, I would like to play your quote back again with spaces for pauses in speech.
   
      quote "their aim is to tear this country down,         to destroy our history,        our culture,        our economy,       our religious sects,       they are in fact         committing sabotage against this country,          they are enemies of the state without a doubt,        they are organized,        they are funded by globalist like George Soros and his ilk         and supported by socialist democrat legislators        acting against the very oath they swore to when they took office,            and they deserve no less punishment than the terrorist they support."

     Dang Grumpy, your good,  have you thought about a second career in talk radio? I hear it pays pretty good in the right markets!   :thumbsup:
   


  Actually, I have answered all of your questions,  you likely just weren't listening hard enough,  as for your peaceful protesters,  I haven't seen but a few since the early days of this insurrection,  I dare you to turn on the news and find one "peaceful" protester in the throng of black dressed and masked criminals who are acting like animals,  I defy you you find one video clip that doesn't show buildings burning,  store fronts shattered,  police vehicles wrecked or burning,  and explosions going off constantly from fire bombs and illegal fireworks being thrown and set off by your peaceful protesters,  just this week, four police officers were shot down answering a phony call for help in Portland,  a reporter with a press pass hanging around his neck simply walking on the sidewalk was stabbed in the back by one of your peaceful protesters in Detroit, and in Chicago a young black college student who was trying to get your peaceful protesters to stop hurling bricks and bottles at police officers was dragged onto the side walk and killed for disagreeing with your peaceful protesters.
  The time for peaceful protesting is done,  the point about changing policing policies and defunding has been made, heard and is being implemented across the country,  what we are seeing is not protesting,  it's an attack on law and order,  our values as a country, and our political institutions,  and it must be stopped.
  You asked if I had law enforcement connections,  does being a retired career police officer qualify,  then the answer would have to be yes,  I do,  and I have nothing but the deepest respect for the men who wear the badge,  I also find it deeply confusing that you are painting all law enforcement with the broad brush of corruption when the percentage of bad cops is very small,  yet when it comes to the vast number of domestic terrorist that are waging war against this country while wrapping themselves in the mantle of your peaceful protesters you are more than willing to forgive their crimes in order to excuse the few protesters that are actually legit.     
 One of the first thing I learned at the police academy some 40 yrs. ago was that communities get the type of policing they deserve,  if a community is respectful of the law and of the rights of their neighbors and live a decent life they are treated by LE with respect, understanding,  and kindness,  but if the community at large act like animals, they will be treated like animals in turn,  and deservedly so.
 You also asked what I thought about the anarchist being rounded up and arrested or "disappeared",  and you asked me if that was the kind of country I wanted,  so my simple answer to you is,  I believe that every anarchist, every domestic terrorist,  and every paid agent who advocates the violent takeover of this country, up to and including those  leftist legislators, governors, and mayors that support and encourage the anarchists should be rounded up as soon as possible and shipped to our prison base in Cuba,  then tried in a military tribunal for treason and sabotage against the United States of America,  what punishment they are given is of no concern,  the more severe the better including banishment from this country for the rest of their lives and beyond. 
 As to what kind of America I want to live in,  one that is peaceful, orderly,  and respectful of it's citizens,  one that is law abiding,  and one in which our political leaders lead in accordance with the rights and limitations set down in our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.   
 There's also an old saying that bares a lot of wisdom,  "when someone is intent on making a fool of him/herself, don't get in their way",  so my friend,  have at it,  I'm about at my limit with trying to get you to use logic and not emotion as your guide,  I'm afraid it's not in your cards.    :shrug:
69
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by randyt on July 31, 2020, 05:19:08 AM »
excactly and that is why the feds are going in and arresting people, because it isn't OK. i'm glad we agree.


    Is there anything off limits for a protester?   Yes
    or does anything go?    No
    What would be going to far? For the most part you answered with the following examples:
    assault and battery, that's ok.  No it's not
    fire bombing, that's ok.  No, it's not
    property damage that's ok. No, it's not
    arson that's ok.  See fire bombing listed above.
    killing that's ok. Really? Getting carried away? As some would say, you've jumped the shark!
    rape? child molestation? Drunk driving? Holy crap randyt, It looks like you've been water skiing in a whole school of sharks! The Fonz from Happy Days would be proud!
   
70
General Discussion / Re: 1984
« Last post by randyt on July 31, 2020, 04:54:20 AM »
Pete you remind me of a phrase about a Christmas Goose.

 :cheers:
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