Author Topic: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place  (Read 3900 times)

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Online madmax

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2018, 06:56:07 AM »
I think we did pretty good after I messed up the OP.  It was about division and lamenting the rift between Americans.  I should have been less divisive and more neutral.  Everybody knows where I stand.  It wasn't about that.  I just hadn't been on the receiving end of hatred.  I thought that was pretty stupid.


More and more I hear of brother against brother, son against father,  daughter against mother, etc.  I hate where this is going.
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Offline hayshaker

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2018, 08:16:23 AM »
I've been the snippy one a time or two, have to let off steam some times i guess.
as for the knowledge contained amongst our members, where a pretty dangerous lot for sure.
so when do we start a rant section? my soapbox should be out of the shop soon heh heh.

on a more serious note as for division in our and nation and the national health over all.
between our govt top to bottom fifth coloumist moral degredation ,I see no hope of any
MAGA . america is like a old weatherd farm place that needs to be burnt down in order
to build anew, sad but true, at least that's how i see it.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 08:29:05 AM by hayshaker »

Online madmax

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2018, 08:27:09 AM »
Scroll all the way down Mikey.  Private Discussion section.  I kinda messed up putting this thread here.  But most of us managed to be pretty cool about it.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving pretty with a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways in a cloud of smoke, thouroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, Wow! What a ride!" 
Hunter S, Thompson

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #103 on: July 18, 2018, 10:08:07 AM »
i agree with you Mike.  This has to be dealt with and that means burning down the barn to rebuild it.  I am not sure that it can be rebuilt though, we may be too far down the path. 
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Offline Punty

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #104 on: July 18, 2018, 10:28:18 AM »
Punty, I really think some form of State is enviable. A-C(?). What is Capital? 5-6000 years ago it was the knowledge and ability to domesticate a horse, the engineering ability and knowledge of materials to build a wheel, a bit of smelting perhaps... the NAP is out-dated as soon as somebody gains an over-arching advantage over every-other-body.

It is genetic, eugenic, technologic... somebody is going to come out on top.

  If I interpret your post correctly, then I agree that some form of State is inevitable. This is not the time or place to discuss my anarcho-capitalist beliefs, but I think I can sum it up briefly like this....

1. The State has a purpose and place, and that purpose is to guard the people it represents against violations of their rights....whether that is violence, theft, free trade, property rights...anything.  That is the sole purpose of government. Not to make everyone equal, not to provide caretaking services, not to build roads or pipelines, or anything else.

2. The only true free society is a Voluntaryist society, where every human interaction is voluntary, and never coerced. That means noone can tell you what you can or cannot say, do, sell, trade, or do with your property, or tell you what you can and cannot own. It also means that tyranny by the majority is really no different than the tyranny of one person...mob rule and monarch rule are equal.

3. The only legitimate use of coercion or violence the State has is enforcing the protection of the rights of it's citizens. Locking up murderers, stuff like that.  All state authority ultimately is derived from violence or the threat of it on it's own citizens. Victimless crimes are not crimes, and thus any crime without a victim is not a legitimate crime.

4. Direct taxes are theft and slavery. Taxing property is OK, goods and services is fine...but taxing a person's wages is immoral and unjust. If you pay, for instance, 25% taxes on your wages...you are 25% enslaved. What we commonly think of as slaves are people with a 100% wage tax. Of course, the owner of the slave generally must provide basic services like housing, food, clothing, and medical care. That is for all practical purposes no different than any government. Whatever your income tax is, that is the portion of yourself which you do not own, but the government owns, and therefore the government profits from your labor. Should you not pay, the government will punish you severely, just like any other slave. Should you resist, the government will kill you, just like any other slave. Try not paying your taxes. Then try resisting arrest for not paying taxes, then try keeping the government out of your house. Eventually, you will be shot, and it will never be murder because the one difference between a person killing you, and the government killing you, is that you are property...so it isn't a crime, is it? That is, for government...for anyone else, it's a crime.

5. "When is it moral for a group of persons to do something, that would be immoral for any individual member of that group to do alone?"
  The anarcho-capitalist answer is "Never, the act itself is moral or immoral...the perpetrator is not relevant." For every other person on the planet Earth, the answer is "When it is the State, when it is government." More than anything else...this is what sets Anarcho-Capitalists or Voluntaryists apart from "normal" society.  :D We believe that morality of an action is not dependant on the actor, but is inherent in the act itself, and that the State should be held to the very same moral standards as the citizens it serves. That means the government can't knock on your door, take your money, and give it to the neighbor any more than you can take your neighbors money for yourself. It's the very same act, just different actors...and immoral in both cases.

  Such is the Anarcho-Capitalist version 101 class.

  Not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong, I'm just saying this is who I am and what I believe.


EDIT: Incidentally....reg arding the discussion of friction and division in America today. The reason is simple, but you have to kind of step back and look at the big picture to see it.
      The more powerful government becomes, the more involved it becomes in our everyday lives. The more government invades every aspect of our lives, the more culture and tradition gets eroded and erased, and is replaced with policy and agenda, and thus enforceable, meaning that punishment will be delivered for non-compliance with policy and agenda.
     This process will inevitably lead to tremendous cultural conflict, and possibly even war, because those parts of our society that used to be self governing are now government policy, and so control of that government becomes more and more important, more critical, and loss of control of government becomes more and more oppressive, more and more damaging to the minority, or at least the people not directing the guns of government at it's citizens.
   What used to be a "melting pot" where various cultures combine to create something new, will over time become a cauldron where impurities and deviation will be burned away, rather than melding, they will be cauterized and removed if they do not meet government criteria and standards.
   Thus, over time, elections and other avenues of control of that power become mroe and more a matter of life and death to those parts of society that are unlike one another. Thus, each generation will have more and more invested, and more and more fear, of what will happen if they lose power.
   It's the natural progression of consolidation of power at the top. When so much is at stake, society will fracture and divide against itself as it strives for control of that power....which...ir onically....benefit s the state. So long as the people are divided agaisnt themselves, they are united againt the state and it's growing power.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 10:44:41 AM by Punty »
If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
Ecclesiastes 10:10

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2018, 10:42:35 AM »
I'm going to go with," I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.".  Clear and succinct.

Agreed

Offline imnukensc

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2018, 10:48:34 AM »
Unknown,
   ??? :coffee: I completely agree. In the context of the bi-issued statements, there should be no doubt regarding the intent of regionally biased experiences. Field expediency without proper skills for personality assessment will often result in a less than observable or intuitive measurement of indecipherable decisions. Whether full velocity is required could be dependent on the confidence in one's own skills. A singular position requirement in time advancement is not always a poor choice.

I hope you enjoyed my reply as much as I enjoyed yours. It was fun to ignore context and insert a random reply. :stir:  :)

My vote for the best post in the thread.   :cheers:
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Offline crashdive123

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2018, 02:49:49 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but I believe I understood what he was saying very clearly.

Imo, kinda like saying you sharpen your own knives. "Understood": not the same as agree.  :cheers: that's fine

Understanding implies neither agreement nor disagreement.  With so many people stating that they didn't understand your post I thought I would convey that the sentiment was not universal. :shrug:

Offline Unknown

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2018, 05:51:18 PM »
i appreciate that Crash. I wasn't being snippy with you. Sharpening a knife is not extremely difficult. I don't believe it should be an overwhelming task to understand what I say either, with exceptions of course.
  Maybe it does not often hit the mark with razor sharp clarity, but one should be able to find the point.
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Offline Unknown

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2018, 06:33:31 PM »
Punty, it is interesting and compelling stuff. When I've listened to ancaps try to go into detail about how their positions could be implemented; it all sounds a bit far-fetched. Some are more serious about the Anarchist part than others, I suppose, and want to dissolve the State all together.

I think there is a role for the State beyond the limitations you set. Just to say: To provide for the common good; might be a way to sum it up.
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Offline Punty

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2018, 06:52:22 AM »
I think there is a role for the State beyond the limitations you set. Just to say: To provide for the common good; might be a way to sum it up.

 Therein lies the trap.

  The "deciders" will decide for you, on your behalf, because some people make poor decisions, so "the deciders" will make decisions for everybody,  and some of those decisions will not benefit you.

   Then, before long, "the deciders" will decide what the common good is, and that doesn't mean it will be good for you.  But...hey...you asked for it...because you wanted to appoint people to make decisions for you and everyone else...otherwise known as, "the common good".

  As HL Mencken said: "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule."

  The thing is...we all want what is best, what serves the common good, what benefits us all. The problem is that appointing superiors to start making decisions on behalf of the common good, never works out as intended....it's just that as human beings...we like to let other people make decisions for us, because it makes us feel safe. As a species, we will forever be screwed over by that instinct, from the beginning to the end of time, and there will always be wolves in sheep's clothing willing to take that responsibility to be your master and caretaker and decide what the common good is. No shortage of those types.

  Cheers. :cheers:
If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
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Offline Unknown

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2018, 05:29:31 PM »
I gave a partial view of mine on Rule arising from the primitive state earlier when I referenced the Indo-Europeans. By extension, I suppose, the rest of Western history offers a grand study in different ways to rule, govern, and the like. With all that in mind, it's not surprising that there are lots of questions about how you philosophy will be workable.

Maybe it would be better to keep closer to the theme of the thread since I found what you say about the melting pot was interesting. Usually it is brought up in such a way to say look, see what we did here-pretty easy. All we need to do is keep at it. Really, it was not easy, nor peaceful- more like the opposite of that.

I had a sort of epiphany today. It is about the difficulty of assimilation and the admonition to not discuss politics and religion. If we are talking about the founding of the US, the first immigrants were overwhelming Protestant Anglo. Same language, same religion, so pretty easy to assimilate. A bit later, immigrants with different languages, different religious beliefs began arriving(usually Catholic) and things got very difficult. Eventually, in order to keep the peace, it became easier to not talk about, or give up on it all together. As a result many aspects of identity, culture, history, etc were lost. I'm not saying that "becoming something new" is necessarily a bad thing. I am pointing out the difficulty and sacrifice, compromises that had to happen for Europeans to come together. By the way Europeans are a group with the least genetic diversity compared to other groups. Tough many details are different the commonality of European culture on the whole is remarkably similar. By difficult I mean divisive, racist, hateful, violent and all that jazz.

"Liberals" often tell us the common good cannot be known, and there is just no such thing anyway. The common good is a very old notion in the West. Not much more difficult than deciding what is best for ones family. If you can see that the greater society is merely an extension of that family. Some will have to make sacrifices, some propped up, cared for. Others ostracized, hung by the neck or other approaches as deemed necessary to deal with transgressions.

Perhaps that's enough for now
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2018, 05:47:46 AM »
I gave a partial view of mine on Rule arising from the primitive state earlier when I referenced the Indo-Europeans. By extension, I suppose, the rest of Western history offers a grand study in different ways to rule, govern, and the like. With all that in mind, it's not surprising that there are lots of questions about how you philosophy will be workable.

Maybe it would be better to keep closer to the theme of the thread since I found what you say about the melting pot was interesting. Usually it is brought up in such a way to say look, see what we did here-pretty easy. All we need to do is keep at it. Really, it was not easy, nor peaceful- more like the opposite of that.

I had a sort of epiphany today. It is about the difficulty of assimilation and the admonition to not discuss politics and religion. If we are talking about the founding of the US, the first immigrants were overwhelming Protestant Anglo. Same language, same religion, so pretty easy to assimilate. A bit later, immigrants with different languages, different religious beliefs began arriving(usually Catholic) and things got very difficult. Eventually, in order to keep the peace, it became easier to not talk about, or give up on it all together. As a result many aspects of identity, culture, history, etc were lost. I'm not saying that "becoming something new" is necessarily a bad thing. I am pointing out the difficulty and sacrifice, compromises that had to happen for Europeans to come together. By the way Europeans are a group with the least genetic diversity compared to other groups. Tough many details are different the commonality of European culture on the whole is remarkably similar. By difficult I mean divisive, racist, hateful, violent and all that jazz.

"Liberals" often tell us the common good cannot be known, and there is just no such thing anyway. The common good is a very old notion in the West. Not much more difficult than deciding what is best for ones family. If you can see that the greater society is merely an extension of that family. Some will have to make sacrifices, some propped up, cared for. Others ostracized, hung by the neck or other approaches as deemed necessary to deal with transgressions.

Perhaps that's enough for now

  Good post UNK.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2018, 10:42:21 AM »
I gave a partial view of mine on Rule arising from the primitive state earlier when I referenced the Indo-Europeans. By extension, I suppose, the rest of Western history offers a grand study in different ways to rule, govern, and the like. With all that in mind, it's not surprising that there are lots of questions about how you philosophy will be workable.

Maybe it would be better to keep closer to the theme of the thread since I found what you say about the melting pot was interesting. Usually it is brought up in such a way to say look, see what we did here-pretty easy. All we need to do is keep at it. Really, it was not easy, nor peaceful- more like the opposite of that.

I had a sort of epiphany today. It is about the difficulty of assimilation and the admonition to not discuss politics and religion. If we are talking about the founding of the US, the first immigrants were overwhelming Protestant Anglo. Same language, same religion, so pretty easy to assimilate. A bit later, immigrants with different languages, different religious beliefs began arriving(usually Catholic) and things got very difficult. Eventually, in order to keep the peace, it became easier to not talk about, or give up on it all together. As a result many aspects of identity, culture, history, etc were lost. I'm not saying that "becoming something new" is necessarily a bad thing. I am pointing out the difficulty and sacrifice, compromises that had to happen for Europeans to come together. By the way Europeans are a group with the least genetic diversity compared to other groups. Tough many details are different the commonality of European culture on the whole is remarkably similar. By difficult I mean divisive, racist, hateful, violent and all that jazz.

"Liberals" often tell us the common good cannot be known, and there is just no such thing anyway. The common good is a very old notion in the West. Not much more difficult than deciding what is best for ones family. If you can see that the greater society is merely an extension of that family. Some will have to make sacrifices, some propped up, cared for. Others ostracized, hung by the neck or other approaches as deemed necessary to deal with transgressions.

Perhaps that's enough for now

+1 :cheers:
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Offline Orbean

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2018, 06:02:26 AM »
The current political climate is beyond my understanding. I lean to the left, am a big trade and labor union supporter, with the expectation of most government employee unions. Having said that most union management has been corrupted by the hard left, their silence on illegal immigration is appalling. I have found most on the hard left seem to be okay with flooding our labor markets, real wages have been stagnant for over a decade. Not only did the last president double down on illegal immigration but did not produce a job bill. The TARP program was plain and simple corporate welfare. The bank bailout include banks from foreign banks like the royal bank of Scotland. The only help the American worker received was an increase the amount of time they could receive unemployment, big deal, try living on a fifth on your normal take-home pay.

How is it that so-called liberals could not see that, I did and I am a plumber. Bring this up in a discussion with a typical left leaning person, they have no answer.

I on a regular basis see poverty, old people living with no heat and cooling, single moms driving a piece of crap car on their way to a dead end job that was never meant to be career. The hard left wants a " living minimum wage" , and wants places like Mcdonalds to provide it. They do not care that it will drive up the price of a big mac by at least a dollar, more likely two dollars. Who eat the majority of fast food in this country, poor people do, so to do some alleged good they screw the people they help. Here is another side effect of the increase in minimum wage; employers in cities with increased minimum wages are not hiring as many employees and are preferring experienced ones because they are more efficient. So they have increased unemployment and made it harder for an entry level worker to get a job. Nice going Seattle.

How is that those on the left can not see this, they have economists working for them. Don't they? This was covered in my Macro econ class in college, taught by a blue jean short Birkenstock wearing, greay beard down to his waist liberal professor. His exact quote " price ceiling and price floors never work".

The hard left, if not destroyed, will destroy this country, that is their goal. THe Democratic party is corrupt to its core and needs to be completely cleaned out. They have lost any interst in helping the American worker, who is the back bone of the base. The Democract party needs to split into two entities or it will someday not exist.
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Offline Unknown

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2018, 12:49:43 PM »
Lots of good stuff in there Orbean. I do not disagree. maybe later I'll have more to say.
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Offline Punty

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2018, 05:51:26 AM »
If we are talking about the founding of the US, the first immigrants were overwhelming Protestant Anglo. Same language, same religion, so pretty easy to assimilate. A bit later, immigrants with different languages, different religious beliefs began arriving(usually Catholic) and things got very difficult. Eventually, in order to keep the peace, it became easier to not talk about, or give up on it all together.

  Some thoughts on this, being something of an amatuer history buff.

  First...the white settlers didn't get along with each anywhere near as well as most people think. It took the Revolutionary War to sort of settle differences, and even then, there was an amount of distrust and animosity that would shock people today. This would be a long, unending thread of it's own, but all you have to do is look at how Quakers were treated in Massachusetts, where they were tortured and maimed, and escorted to the state line. Rhode Island, and particularly Providence, was largely founded by religious refugees.

  This sort of thing went on all over. The only saving grace for colonial America, was that there was so much land around, that groups that clashed could keep a fair amount of distance from one another.

  The animosity of the colonials for one another is well reflected in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, set up so that the minorities in the country have disproportionate power, reflected in the Electoral Collegem and the 1st Amendment guaranty that a majority cannot impose religious restrictions on a minority, and so on. One of the Founder's greatest fears, if not the greatest, was what they called "The Tyranny of the Majority". They feared it because of the conflicting cultures and values and diversity of backgrounds in the various states.

  Easy it wasn't. Not at all, but it's not a well known or taught chapter in our history.

  It's never easy. You just keep trying.
If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Re: Sorry. Can't find the super secret place
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2018, 08:57:41 AM »
+1, Punty!  The conflict between the "colonies" was even more apparent when you read about the debates when the maps were drawn. It becomes obvious why there were 13 stars on the flag, and not ONE.
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