Author Topic: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline Moe M.

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As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« on: June 01, 2020, 07:51:10 AM »
 Now we appear to be under attack by a bunch of professional anarchist that are rioting, burning, looting, and destroying police buildings and resources,  cities are in flames,  and police are hard pressed to even contain the problem let alone stop it.
 There are many excuses being made for the rage that seems to be driving the protests/riots,  politics, racial abuse, government abuse of power,  poor economic balance,  but the bottom line is that criminal behavior is criminal behavior, those committing acts of arson, looting, destroying private and public property, and assaulting police and civilians are criminals and deserve to be held accountable and be punished to the fullest extent that the law allows.
 And worse, they (who ever they are) have started to invade suburban residential communities, one has to wonder what will happen when civilians and homeowners are forced to use violence in order to defend themselves, families, and homes against these invaders,  we are a country of laws,  what will it become without law and under anarchy ?
 Can any reasonable person not think that this whole assault on our country is not a well planed, well organized, and well funded plan to destroy our economy, our culture, our Constitution, and faith in our government and LE agencies,  I think it is,  I think it's been in the works for a long while just waiting for the right time to implement it, and the Corona virus and country wide shut down was that time.

 What say you ?         
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 12:41:05 PM »
You are correct in who is protesting, Antifa members are at the forefront.  Many of the looters, regardless of ethnicity, are nothing more than criminals.  They are not protesting they are looting.  There is an element that is coordinating an aggressive violence against the US and it's purpose is to disrupt the operation of this countries economy, political process, and way of life.

The media is of no help, they are on the side of the looters and their anti-Trump views destroy the reporting of facts.

The latest WH briefing is full of the dumbest questions trying to make all this Trumps fault as far as response is concerned. 

Some of you probably saw the "protesters" loot a REI retail store.  No police presence that I could see.   
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Offline hayshaker

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 05:52:30 PM »
we need to chop the head of the snake. this whole thing goes so far beyond
making the potus look bad. they are trying to destroy america.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2020, 09:11:42 PM »
At first glance, I liked the idea that was used in San Francisco after the 1906 earthquake. "Shoot all looters on sight."

But as came to light later, the military could not discern between a looter and a shopkeeper or homeowner trying to salvage the remains of his stores stock or ones personal belongings before all was destroyed by the encroaching fires. Consequently, many innocent lives were mistakenly terminated by an overzealous military response.

That whole "Move wrong and you will be shot or bayonetted", concept put a real damper on disaster recovery. 

My take on this is, the military is focused and trained to destroy and conquer. That's great, that's what we need and want them to do. Just not on their own home turf. Rolling up in an APC with a Ma Duece on full rock and roll is what they do and they do it well. Doing it in your own back yard is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. Embarrassing at the very least. No? Who in the world came up with that idea? Where do we go next? Apache helicopters hovering over burning dumpsters? FA18 airstrikes on CVS pharmacies?

Watching a C130 gunship sideslip across a mob of protesters blocking the Interstate would be awesome though.

Never mind, I'm starting to make this sound like to much fun. Jeez, I glad I can laugh at myself. I gotta go. Need to wipe the grin off and douse the twinkle in my eye.

Maybe I should just buy one of them action video games like my grandson has. Probably a lot cheaper.

 

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 09:23:27 PM »
Hayshaker and I were talking, just a couple weeks ago, about the pandemic and wondering if something else was going to pop up and bite us in the butt. I guess it did. What else can go wrong?

Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 09:25:06 PM »
What I know is that nobody is going to like anarchy very much.  The Antifa bunch and the anarchist types along with the far left are not going to enjoy it at all albeit very briefly.  Those who put down the anarchists are not going to like doing what they have to do to quell it.  And the rest of the innocent bystanders are going to be caught in the melee.  The return to law and order after the anarchists get what they want will be a slow process, but the anarchists won't be a part of it, for obvious reasons.

Right now they are really stretching the rubber envelop of restraint.  When their activities spill over into rural areas, that's when the tide will turn. 

It's the first one that's really hard, after that it's relatively easy.  We really don't want to be forced to take that first step of the citizen militia having to put down an anarchist rebellion.  It will change our country forever, and not necessarily for the better.

Alan

Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2020, 09:56:59 PM »

...
Watching a C130 gunship sideslip across a mob of protesters blocking the Interstate would be awesome though.
....

That would put a whole different perspective on the violent protest thing.  The biggest problem with it though would be rebuilding the interstate.

Alan

Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2020, 10:01:02 PM »
I wish we would stop calling this violent protest.  It is domestic terrorism by the looters and those blocking highways.  The military police or National Guard can stop this quickly with a coordinated effort.
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 12:26:45 AM »
I think the reporting is mostly nonsense and this isn't a very big deal.  It's pretty clear that it's 98% protestors and 2% troublemakers which probably mirrors the folks that the protests are directed against.  Be safe and don't take chances, just as in any other event.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 07:29:47 PM »
Burning 255 business establishments in Minnesota and a police station isn't a big deal?  Business operations that have been shut down due to the virus for nearly 3 months get a chance to open and these anarchists break in and loot and assault and you sit there and say it isn't a big deal?  Unbelievable.
 
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 01:29:10 PM »
Burning 255 business establishments in Minnesota and a police station isn't a big deal?  Business operations that have been shut down due to the virus for nearly 3 months get a chance to open and these anarchists break in and loot and assault and you sit there and say it isn't a big deal?  Unbelievable.

 Sometimes I wish we had a like button to click on, but for some unexplained reason we don't,  so this will have to do.

 Stan, you're the man,  I read that post yesterday and wanted to respond so badly that the my throat hurt from keeping my mouth shut and my fingers off the key board, the only thing I could do was log out, partly to keep from making myself look unhinged and partly to keep from being banned from this forum. 
 For the first time in my life I really fear for my country,  we are in a very serious place in regard to the future of this grand experiment,  probably never closer to being destroyed and turned into an economically, morally, and ethically broken country,  some may argue but I don't think we are very far behind Venezuela in being totally ruined, I am truly heart broken to see the rioting, burn, looting, and property destruction on TV and hearing the media refer to it as protesting,  protesting is masses of people gathering peacefully,  carrying signs and using megaphones to address the crowds and make their concern known to the public and to our elected officials.
 Protesting is not tearing down cities, burning buildings and cars,  protesting is not looting businesses, attacking police,  or burning public buildings,  what that is domestic terrorism,  what that is is criminal behavior,  what that is is a total disrespect for the rights, lives, and property of others. 
 And if that wasn't bad enough,  a small city that I practically grew up in that abuts my town that has had very little violence, very few incidents of racial problems, and has a population that is pretty well divided across the spectrum of race and ethnicity, and that has always had the spirit of helping it's neighbors working for a better community is suddenly faced with paid agitators coming into the community and threatening to tear it apart and burn what's left.
 I live about a mile from the state border, the residents and business owners have boarded up what they can and they sit and wait to be attacked,  they don't deserve it and they shouldn't stand for it, and I hope they find the resources and the will to fight back to protect themselves and their property.
 ANTIFA has stated that once they have burned the businesses and taken what they believe is theirs they will be coming to residential neighborhoods and wreak havoc on residents and property,  well if they do some of them will be in for a huge surprise.

  No Big deal,  Really ??? 
     
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Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 01:50:39 PM »
     Big Deal? Meh. All depends on your perspective and past experiences.
     There is a list of atrocities that goes on and on through history. Each atrocity worse than the last.

     So far, it's been a big deal of it happens to you. But statistically, on an historical stage, it really is laughable.
     No mass hangings, no ones head paraded down the street on a pike. Really, a few rubber bullets, some tear gas and broken glass. Maybe even a couple cars on fire (Which mysteriously burst into flames with no "terrorists" even close to them, wonder how that happened) sure looks exciting and dangerous to our sheltered sensibilities.
     In the grand scheme of revolt, rebellion and passionate uprising against all things wrong and unfair in the world, this has been children's games.
     From what I can see, the actual violence and looting has been the work of opportunist criminals. There is no organized group in charge of this. Look closely at the videos and see for yourself. The self styled troublemakers are a bunch of young wannabe tough guys thinking this is just a fun lark. They have always been on the outer fringes of polite society and now is their chance to "stick it to the man", be somebody, show off for the girls that are impressed by such antics. In short, a rag-tag unorganized bunch of losers.
     And it's no better on the other side of the line. Pompous boys and girls in black uniforms pumped up with righteousness. Wielding paintball guns loaded with pepperballs and few tear gas grenades, think they are in charge. Luckily for them, there is no real organized group they have to contend with. (see paragraph above)
     To boot, it's an election year. That in and of itself is great entertainment. A select band of buffoons all trying to puff their chest out with grand rhetoric to further their personal reelection chances.
     Sorry Stan, I think you and Phaedrus each have valid points, but they are made from different perspectives.

    As I was typing this, I see Moe has an entry. Moe, watch your video feeds closely and see who is protesting, who is instigating the violence and who is getting caught up in the moment and exploiting the opportunity. Some of the best video is coming from the little local stations. The bigger networks have a market share ratings and advertising sales agenda so watch for the "Oh my, isn't this just awfull!" slant to their reporting.

     Just my two cents worth.  :coffee:    I'll wait for the  :deadhorse:    (that was an upside down donkey, right?:)



Offline Phaedrus

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2020, 02:22:24 PM »
Well, it's a big deal for Minneapolis. The damage to businesses is certainly bad although not nearly as bad as cop murdering in a man publicly as onlookers begged him to stop.  I absolutely disagree that riots are the solution but nothing else they've tried has done any good.  Anyone here that's lived in Minneapolis knows this kind of behavior from the police there is not new.

To me the far bigger "deal" is talk of using the military to suppress protests even if they're not violent.  I also can't wrap my mind around the fact that the response to seeing cops murdering a man as he begs for his life is mostly "meh" and the real outrage is being reserved for the rioters.  If we condemn criminal behavior let's condemn it too when it's being committed by the police.  I too fear for this country as the slide to total fascism seems just around the corner.  We're about a step and a half from being a full fledged Banana Republic.  It's frightening to realize that I trust the military more than the government; civilian control of the gov is a cornerstone of liberty and democracy but right now only the basic decency and conscientiousness of the military is preventing the administration from snuffing out the rule of law entirely.  Three years ago it would have been unthinkable to even speak aloud about invoking the Insurrection Act, and flooding our streets with soldiers is like something out of a bad movie.  We need to cut the head off the snake but there's some disagreement as to which snake needs it.

Our cities are not battlespaces.  When that's no longer true then America is utterly lost.

There's about ten million other things on my mind but as Moe says, most of them are not suitable for this forum.  I'll just say stay safe and good luck to us all.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2020, 03:04:48 PM »
This is a big deal in America and I agree that we are a stones throw from a cultural and economic disaster.  I don't think peaceful protest is what has the military coming, it is criminal domestic terrorism by Antifa and their allies as well as some on the both sides of the spectrum who wouldn't mind a shooting free for all.  The riots and looting have diluted the outrage felt about the death of Mr. Floyd because peaceful protest with the support of the majority of America was distorted by outsiders who exploited this "opportunity" to create chaos. 

Pete your analogy that this is "meh" of course depends on where you have been and what you have experienced.  Ask the store owner who just had his entire life's work destroyed.  Ask the people left behind when Mr. Floyd was killed by a monster of a police officer.  Were there atrocities in other nations in history that were worse?  Many of of them of course but this one is a big deal because it is here and now.  Is this worse than Watts?  Not yet but it is close for those who have lost their property or been attacked and beaten.  Is it worse than being lined up and shot by the Nazi's?  Of course not.  But it is a damned big deal if it is happening to you. 

 
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2020, 04:56:34 PM »
...
 ANTIFA has stated that once they have burned the businesses and taken what they believe is theirs they will be coming to residential neighborhoods and wreak havoc on residents and property,  well if they do some of them will be in for a huge surprise.....

They really have no freakin idea what waits out here in the woods....


Alan

Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2020, 05:04:52 PM »
Excellent observation Alan.   :pissed:
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2020, 06:37:04 PM »
     Big Deal? Meh. All depends on your perspective and past experiences.
     There is a list of atrocities that goes on and on through history. Each atrocity worse than the last.

     So far, it's been a big deal of it happens to you. But statistically, on an historical stage, it really is laughable.
     No mass hangings, no ones head paraded down the street on a pike. Really, a few rubber bullets, some tear gas and broken glass. Maybe even a couple cars on fire (Which mysteriously burst into flames with no "terrorists" even close to them, wonder how that happened) sure looks exciting and dangerous to our sheltered sensibilities.
     In the grand scheme of revolt, rebellion and passionate uprising against all things wrong and unfair in the world, this has been children's games.
     From what I can see, the actual violence and looting has been the work of opportunist criminals. There is no organized group in charge of this. Look closely at the videos and see for yourself. The self styled troublemakers are a bunch of young wannabe tough guys thinking this is just a fun lark. They have always been on the outer fringes of polite society and now is their chance to "stick it to the man", be somebody, show off for the girls that are impressed by such antics. In short, a rag-tag unorganized bunch of losers.
     And it's no better on the other side of the line. Pompous boys and girls in black uniforms pumped up with righteousness. Wielding paintball guns loaded with pepperballs and few tear gas grenades, think they are in charge. Luckily for them, there is no real organized group they have to contend with. (see paragraph above)
     To boot, it's an election year. That in and of itself is great entertainment. A select band of buffoons all trying to puff their chest out with grand rhetoric to further their personal reelection chances.
     Sorry Stan, I think you and Phaedrus each have valid points, but they are made from different perspectives.

    As I was typing this, I see Moe has an entry. Moe, watch your video feeds closely and see who is protesting, who is instigating the violence and who is getting caught up in the moment and exploiting the opportunity. Some of the best video is coming from the little local stations. The bigger networks have a market share ratings and advertising sales agenda so watch for the "Oh my, isn't this just awfull!" slant to their reporting.

     Just my two cents worth.  :coffee:    I'll wait for the  :deadhorse:    (that was an upside down donkey, right?:)

  And that's about all it's worth,  it must be nice to be so idealistic to the point of caring more about humanity than having to give a shat about people,  and yet be so cynical that no one can be trusted. 
  But no,  I'm not getting sucked into trying to educate those who have no willingness to learn,  but learn they will,  real hard and a hair too late. 
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 10:26:13 PM »
Idealistic? I never thought about myself that way. On some level that's maybe, not so bad. Cynical? Oh yea. To a fault. Question everything and trust very few people and certainly no politicians.


 ANTIFA has stated
     

Really? ANTIFA has stated? They/it have no organization, no leaders, no spokespersons. They/it are like smoke or the boogie man.

"Remember the Maine !"  got us into a war in 1898
"The Tonkin Gulf Incident" got us into a war in 1964
"They have weapons of mass destruction" got us into a sandbox war that we're still trying to shovel our way out of. 
"ANITFA has stated". Well, who exactly said it , when, where? Or was it a statement from a politician during a press conference or photo opportunity event?

The first three of these rallying cries have been put forth by politicians and each one has been proven to be misinformation (a lie), calculated to sway public opinion towards war.  The last one seems to be a pretty good piece of misinformation too. Who is in charge of ANTIFA, who is the spokesperson that said it? Who carries an ID card or wears a uniform that identifies them as ANTIFA? Where are the meetings held? Or on what social media platform?

ANTIFA seems to scare the daylights out of some of our politicians and so the logic goes, we should be scared too. What a great excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act.

Just where these leaders are trying to lead us. My take is, they aren't trying to lead us at all. They are trying to distract us from impending failures. From what I'm seeing in the comments here, they are doing a pretty good job of it.

So, just where are we at? 100,000+ dead, shortage of critical medical supplies, food prices threatening to launch through the roof, only reasonable way to pay back the national debt is with inflated dollars, and there is a possibility they won't be able to control hyperinflation of the dollar. There is a lot for us to be distracted from. And this social unrest with its protests and riots just fell into their laps. What an opportunity! How lucky can they get?

Do you trust these people to keep your food supply abundant and affordable? Your currency from collapsing and your transportation, bridge and rail systems safe and affordable? How about your power grid. Have they taken the steps to harden it against a hack attack? How about hydroelectric dam failures and its associated flooding. Have they allocated the funds to do any of this? If the answer to any of these is no, what have you done to protect yourself from the shortcomings of the people you trust?

Trust the people in charge to do the right thing?      SURPRISE !!!! They don't give a shat about people! (where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in the previous post)

Dang, another two cents gone. (Bing Crosby sings quietly in the background "Brother, can you spare a dime" from 1932 depression era)




   

« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 04:10:11 AM by Pete Bog »

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2020, 10:09:41 AM »
Idealistic? I never thought about myself that way. On some level that's maybe, not so bad. Cynical? Oh yea. To a fault. Question everything and trust very few people and certainly no politicians.


 ANTIFA has stated
     

Really? ANTIFA has stated? They/it have no organization, no leaders, no spokespersons. They/it are like smoke or the boogie man.

"Remember the Maine !"  got us into a war in 1898
"The Tonkin Gulf Incident" got us into a war in 1964
"They have weapons of mass destruction" got us into a sandbox war that we're still trying to shovel our way out of. 
"ANITFA has stated". Well, who exactly said it , when, where? Or was it a statement from a politician during a press conference or photo opportunity event?

The first three of these rallying cries have been put forth by politicians and each one has been proven to be misinformation (a lie), calculated to sway public opinion towards war.  The last one seems to be a pretty good piece of misinformation too. Who is in charge of ANTIFA, who is the spokesperson that said it? Who carries an ID card or wears a uniform that identifies them as ANTIFA? Where are the meetings held? Or on what social media platform?

ANTIFA seems to scare the daylights out of some of our politicians and so the logic goes, we should be scared too. What a great excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act.

Just where these leaders are trying to lead us. My take is, they aren't trying to lead us at all. They are trying to distract us from impending failures. From what I'm seeing in the comments here, they are doing a pretty good job of it.

So, just where are we at? 100,000+ dead, shortage of critical medical supplies, food prices threatening to launch through the roof, only reasonable way to pay back the national debt is with inflated dollars, and there is a possibility they won't be able to control hyperinflation of the dollar. There is a lot for us to be distracted from. And this social unrest with its protests and riots just fell into their laps. What an opportunity! How lucky can they get?

Do you trust these people to keep your food supply abundant and affordable? Your currency from collapsing and your transportation, bridge and rail systems safe and affordable? How about your power grid. Have they taken the steps to harden it against a hack attack? How about hydroelectric dam failures and its associated flooding. Have they allocated the funds to do any of this? If the answer to any of these is no, what have you done to protect yourself from the shortcomings of the people you trust?

Trust the people in charge to do the right thing?      SURPRISE !!!! They don't give a shat about people! (where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in the previous post)

Dang, another two cents gone. (Bing Crosby sings quietly in the background "Brother, can you spare a dime" from 1932 depression era)

 It's a free country my friend (at least for the short term) so you are free to support or criticize anyone or anything that makes you happy,  the fact that I have personal reservations about your views on Life, the Universe, and Politics shouldn't let that distract you from ranting all you wish or substituting BS for real facts, at a time when this country and the rest of the world for that matter is experiencing a very difficult time in it's history, mostly because of people who simply can't deal with life as it's dealt, so they stick their heads into tight dark spaces and hide from reality by convincing themselves that good is bad and bad is good.
 For the foreseeable future things will take their natural courses until life becomes too untenable for supporters of the Constitution to comfortably conform to,  in which case a correction will be initiated,  quickly, efficiently, and with extreme prejudice,  it's not like we haven't been there and done that once before.       
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2020, 12:43:36 PM »
"...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - DOI(TJ)



Alan


Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2020, 01:13:50 PM »
"...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." - DOI(TJ)

Alan

  Excellent and quite timely post. 
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2020, 01:32:07 PM »
Moe, when you started this thread on 1 June you finished your opening post with " What say you ? "

Now you know.

In my last post, I asked a few questions, most of them rhetorical. But a few really needed answers. What I got was an accusation of "substituting BS for real facts"

And yet, you didn't take to time to call BS on any of my statements. Just lumped them all together under a "rant" label.

Not one of the questions was answered. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The questions and/or statements apparently made you nervous. They should have. They addressed just a few of the difficult subjects of the day.

Alan, your post references DOI (TJ). What is that? I'm not familiar with the source initials.
Your post, however, reminded me of the "Peasants revolt of 1381". The peasants took a lot of abuse until the tax collectors started checking the young female family members for virginity. That was the last in a long line of abuses. Heads rolled over that. Now that's a correction with extreme prejudice!  :)






Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2020, 01:38:01 PM »
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2020, 02:14:43 PM »
Moe, when you started this thread on 1 June you finished your opening post with " What say you ? "

Now you know.

In my last post, I asked a few questions, most of them rhetorical. But a few really needed answers. What I got was an accusation of "substituting BS for real facts"

And yet, you didn't take to time to call BS on any of my statements. Just lumped them all together under a "rant" label.

Not one of the questions was answered. That, in and of itself, says a lot. The questions and/or statements apparently made you nervous. They should have. They addressed just a few of the difficult subjects of the day.

Alan, your post references DOI (TJ). What is that? I'm not familiar with the source initials.
Your post, however, reminded me of the "Peasants revolt of 1381". The peasants took a lot of abuse until the tax collectors started checking the young female family members for virginity. That was the last in a long line of abuses. Heads rolled over that. Now that's a correction with extreme prejudice!  :)

 Well you are right about the fact that you didn't get any answers to your questions rhetorical nor those requiring substance,  but you failed to understand the reasons for my non answers,  that being that your questions were not meant to further an honest dialog,  they were meant to be bait simply for you to rant on about the injustices imaginary or real that the US has perpetrated on it's citizens and in other parts of the world whether justified or not,  we used to refer to that as Moral Relativism,  and that is BS, and I'm simply not being a party to any of it.
 I'm one of those people you probably think are too ignorant to recognize that the US is just another place on the world map,  not special or unique,  and it's people are no better or worse than people from anywhere else, and you likely don't hold much respect for religious beliefs as well. 
 In any event it's quite clear that we have conflicting views on probably just about everything so there really isn't much to be gained by carrying on any further.

 But I will pray for your awakening.  (big grin)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:23:26 PM by Moe M. »
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2020, 02:18:38 PM »
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan

Yes, I am. I actually hold dual citizenship and I was born with both. Kinda neat hunh? If you wanted to reference "Declaration of Independance" (Thomas Jefferson), Well, why didn't you just say so! (best Foghorn Leghorn voice)

People from all over the world view this forum. It's just courteous to keep them in mind when using abbreviations. Just a thought.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2020, 02:21:53 PM »
 :lol: Well Moe, now we know where your going to be for the next while!! :rofl: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2020, 03:07:10 PM »
:lol: Well Moe, now we know where your going to be for the next while!! :rofl: :banana: :banana: :banana:

  LOL, said I'd pray for you, didn't say I'd waste a lot of time on it,  diminishing return and all that stuff. 
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2020, 08:25:33 PM »
Pete, are you a US citizen? 

Alan

Yes, I am. I actually hold dual citizenship and I was born with both. Kinda neat hunh? If you wanted to reference "Declaration of Independance" (Thomas Jefferson), Well, why didn't you just say so! (best Foghorn Leghorn voice)

People from all over the world view this forum. It's just courteous to keep them in mind when using abbreviations. Just a thought.

So, you knew what I was referencing but you asked anyway so you could self-righteously tell me to mind my manners for anyone from all over the world.... I suppose they could Google it .... too.

And No, I don't think dual citizenship is pretty neat.  I actually think it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties.  But, since you were born that way, that's not your fault...

And, if you really didn't know what the quote was from, hence my question about your citizenship, then someone did a poor job of educating you or you did a poor job of learning.

Have a nice night.

Alan

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2020, 12:45:18 AM »
I should recognize an exert from a document studied for two weeks over 50 years ago? And if I don't I'm in illiterate slob and the product of an incompetent school. Quote to me all the symbols from your high school Boolean Algebra class. uh hunh, that's what I thought.

Since you are of superior intelligence and schooling I'm certain you'll be able to recognize and identify each of these
US government agencies and programs I worked with. NTIA, FCC, FBI, BIA, NHS, USFWS, BLM, BIE, DOI, IHS, USFS, NPS, USGS, FAA and the USDA, FSA for CRP

 So, actually Alan, I didn't know what DOI (TJ) stood for. To me, DOI stands for Department of the Interior and I couldn't put a TJ to it. So I asked. After I received your reply I did a Google on the initials. I guess you took offense at what I found.

I also took offense: at the snide remark questioning my citizenship.

As far as self righteously telling you to mind your manners, I certainly didn't intend that.  I would no more tell you to mind your manners than I would tell a rancher to mind his herd when he has no cattle.

The curt "have a nice night" dismissal was a nice touch. Sue Fox book I presume?  (Google it, that's what you expected me to do)

no smiling faces or dancing bananas as an agree to disagree notation to this guy


Offline Dabberty

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2020, 04:36:11 AM »
I don't think dual citizenship is pretty neat.  I actually think it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties.  But, since you were born that way, that's not your fault...
Alan
Your line made me curious.
What exact loyalties are you talking about, what prevents dual citizenship from being loyal to where ever you live?
I used to have dual citizenship, have up one since I didn't see the need for it. If I could choose again, I would have kept it.
My son, half Dutch (me), half Czech (my wife) has also both nationalities.
Why would I deny one of them, why he shouldn't have the best of both worlds?

Example, we live currently in Prague, Czech Republic. if you would ever want to study abroad, some countries prefer students from certain countries, have 2 nationalities would help.
If my son would ever want to move to The Netherlands, and buy a house there, it is without issue if you have the local nationality. Getting a mortgage and building permissions is quite hard if you are not a local.
I experienced the difficulties myself when I was building our house here in Czech Republic.
Voting, once he is adult, he can vote in both countries if he chooses to, or just in one, being most likely the one where he lives at that moment.
And there are much more practical examples I could give.
So, back to my question, what exact loyalties are preventing being loyal to where ever you live?
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2020, 05:10:58 AM »
Pete, seems you are looking for a fight.  Look someplace else.  You're the one who has a problem with this, not me.  If you don't like mine, that's fine with me.  From reading your responses I don't much like yours either. The question about your citizenship was ACTUALLY a courtesy to find out if you were from the US or someplace that would think the quote was from the Department of the Interior.  I would have understood having to explain it then and your ignorance as to its origin. 

Dabberty, I get to have MY opinion.  I stated it freely.  I'm not telling you, your wife or your son what to do or where to do it, especially in another country. 

So, for this morning, my internet squabbles are done.  There is too much real life squabbling to be done today.

Alan

Offline Dabberty

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2020, 06:29:58 AM »
Alan, you can absolutely have your opinion, i'm not saying anything about that.
I'm just very curious now why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties".
I would not expect that there is any harm in explaining that thought no?
'Educate' me if you will, I'm interested why it is bad in your opinion, because as written before, I know only of good reasons to have dual citizenship, and good experiences.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 06:52:05 AM by Dabberty »
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Offline crashdive123

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2020, 11:43:34 AM »
Alan, you can absolutely have your opinion, i'm not saying anything about that.
I'm just very curious now why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties".
I would not expect that there is any harm in explaining that thought no?
'Educate' me if you will, I'm interested why it is bad in your opinion, because as written before, I know only of good reasons to have dual citizenship, and good experiences.

I'll admit that I never gave dual citizenship much thought.  I honestly have not opinion on whether it would be good or bad, so I took to Google.  Much of what I found looks like it may cause "issues" for the person with dual citizenship.  I imagine that which countries one is a citizen of would play a role.  Obviously there can be benefits as well.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/040715/when-dual-citizenship-not-good-idea.asp


Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2020, 01:11:24 PM »
Thanks for posting that Crash.  I was thinking about Dabberty's question and all I came up with was military issues and possibly some health care issues.
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2020, 08:16:17 PM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do.  My own personal loyalty is to one wife, one country and one God.  That is simply what I believe to be the best way for me.  Whatever benefits there may be in having dual wives, dual citizenships or dual gods, would sooner or later be completely overshadowed by conflicting or competing ends. 

My God tells me he is a jealous God.  I believe him.  When I pledge allegiance to my flag and country I mean it.  When I stand and sing the National Anthem with my hand over my heart it is without reservation and without a plan B.  When I stood in front of God and my family and took that stubborn, hardheaded woman to be my wife. She was the only one I was ever going to do that with.  I will not have another, just one.  I lovingly refer to her as #1 wife.  She's the first and last wife I will ever have. 

I was very fortunate to be born in The United States of America and by the grace of God, in Texas!  For me, personally, I would not dilute my loyalty to the Greatest nation the world has ever known.   It's the first and last country I will ever have.

I don't know if this answered your question or not Dabberty, but it's the answer I've got.


Alan

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2020, 04:59:14 AM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do.  My own personal loyalty is to one wife, one country and one God.  That is simply what I believe to be the best way for me.  Whatever benefits there may be in having dual wives, dual citizenships or dual gods, would sooner or later be completely overshadowed by conflicting or competing ends. 

My God tells me he is a jealous God.  I believe him.  When I pledge allegiance to my flag and country I mean it.  When I stand and sing the National Anthem with my hand over my heart it is without reservation and without a plan B.  When I stood in front of God and my family and took that stubborn, hardheaded woman to be my wife. She was the only one I was ever going to do that with.  I will not have another, just one.  I lovingly refer to her as #1 wife.  She's the first and last wife I will ever have. 

I was very fortunate to be born in The United States of America and by the grace of God, in Texas!  For me, personally, I would not dilute my loyalty to the Greatest nation the world has ever known.   It's the first and last country I will ever have.

I don't know if this answered your question or not Dabberty, but it's the answer I've got.


Alan

 And a Damned fine one it is,  I seriously doubt anyone could answer that question in any clearer way.   
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Offline Pete Bog

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2020, 04:13:04 PM »
 :hail:

My goodness it's been quiet today!

I saw a meme once that said "All mothers gave birth to a child, but yours gave birth to a legend!"

That was genius, you called in all the standard righteous causes. God, country, the sanctity of marriage and even good 'ol Texas. Can't argue with any of those for sure.

As the Colonel Bogie March plays gently in the back ground I can hear comedian Ron White. As he stands there in his white shirt, collar open. He holds a glass and cigar in one hand and as he takes a sip of scotch, he is paraphrased as saying "There! That oughta shut 'em up!"

Gotta hand it to ya Alan, good one!  :hail: :cheers:

Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2020, 06:38:48 PM »
Yes Pete.  There are people who actually believe those things and live them.


Alan

Offline Dabberty

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2020, 01:42:08 PM »
Alan, it's definitely your answer, no discussion about it :-) it seems something from a old western movie, just the whole sunset part is missing.
Personally I do not compare a wife with a country, it is like comparing a 4 handed thai massage with Dolmar 166 chainsaw. Both great things and hard to find a good one, but very different.

Just out of curiosity, do think badly about your great great (perhaps a few more greats in there) parents who left Scotland or perhaps Ireland and moved to the US in search for a better live?
Knowing the Scottish, as proud as they are, when they arrived in the US, they still hold up their Scottish/Irish banner and traditions, but also became registered Americans at one point in time.
One of the earliest forms of Dual Citizenship I would say.

Am I right to assume that you have not traveled outside of the US borders?
There is this distinct difference between people who have traveled abroad, and those who haven't.
I do not mean this in a way of good and bad differences.
Those who have traveled abroad are more open towards other cultures, different ways of thinking, study other languages, more engaged in worldly problems, open to emigrate to other countries, to say without fear that the beer from country X is actually better then the beer from his own country :-), etc.
Those who never left their owner borders, you can recognize them quickly. You strike me as this as well.
They are usually very proud people, local beer is the best, my language is the greatest, we did this and that always like that so no need to change, those new people are outsides and don't belong here, etc, my country is the greatest, etc.
Again, this is not in any way meant to point a finger as in this is good and that is bad, it is just a clear difference.

Anyway, although your answer is nice. but i was more curious about why "it's a bad idea that creates divided loyalties", and what loyalties those would be.
Unless you are living in a state of mind where you expect war to happen at any time, and then you would have to choose for which country you will fight.
But i hope thats not the case, it is not a nice and relaxed way of living.

I'm fine with ending this discussion, you have your idea's about it, I have my thoughts + experiences, I respect yours and I hope you respect mine.

Have a great day !

PS, you should visit Scotland one day, it is an amazing place with a strong history, and whilst you're there, visit a few whisky distilleries where you can taste whisky at it purest form!
I've done twice a week roadtrip there already, one with friends, one with the wife, and for sure there will be one still coming once my son is 18 :-)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 01:49:07 PM by Dabberty »
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2020, 05:18:53 PM »
I have been into Mexico, and not very far into Mexico.  I have not traveled to everywhere in the US yet so the rest of the World will have to wait.  I Majored in History in college with a Minor in Agriculture (don't see many of those but they were ready to get rid of me).  I then got a Masters of Education and taught World History and Texas History for a bunch of years (it was my second or third or fourth career depending on the definition of career).  Sometimes, given my chosen field of education, I find it odd that I did not, and still do not have the desire to travel.  I really do enjoy staying home.  I suppose the difference is that I love my country.  I think it is great and I'm eternally grateful to be born here and a part of it.

My ancestry is Scotch/Irish, Italian, English, and American Indian (I have more Native American blood than Liz Warren, but not by much).  Yes, they came here to start a better life.  The Scotch/Irish that gave me my name, it is rumored, came here running from the law.  The Italians changed their name from Russo to Rossi somewhere out in the Atlantic on the way over.  When they finally settled in South Texas around 1900, Grandpa told the kids they weren't going to speak Italian any more they were going to learn and speak the language where they lived.  So, they all learned Spanish.... but spoke English in school.  The English gave me my middle name "Rhodes".   One of my maternal G-grandfather's grandfather married a Cherokee woman and gave me that tiny drop of Indian.  Two branches of my maternal lineage were members of "The Old 300" families that came to Texas with Steven F. Austin's colony, one branch of which were some of the first "Texas Rangers", the Tumlinsons.

I suppose it is simply a difference of ideologies where you do not view your citizenship as I do.  That is certainly your choice and mine.  I am a resident of Texas, a Southerner, but Ultimately I am a Citizen of the United States of America.  I fly the American flag, not the Italian, Scottish, Irish, English flags nor a Cherokee banner.  I am an American, first and last.  Yes all those people came from someplace else.  Each group of them became Americans and left their homelands, families and nationalities behind.  They did not divide their loyalties.  Joe Rossi, first generation American, turned 19 when the US entered WWI.  He went back to a continent he was only one generation remove from and fought in a horrific war.  He died of influenza on the ship on the way home. He was an American.

I'm not sure I can explain it further without redundancy. 

Regardless of any "Romantics" my posts conjure up for you or anyone else, I always try my best to be truthful and sincere.  Even my sarcasm is sincere.

(oh, and my eyes hurt today from sweating in our Hellish heat so my proofreading is possibly faulty)

Alan


« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:37:58 PM by Alan R McDaniel Jr »

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2020, 05:26:25 PM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2020, 05:29:06 PM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I refuse to expand on that at all...... and that's all I have to say about that.... 

Alan

Offline crashdive123

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2020, 05:42:08 PM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

And yet you continue to drop little cluster bombs in those threads that you seem to dislike in order to ---- what ---- agitate?

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2020, 07:05:07 AM »
In a nutshell, it would be like having dual wives.  While there are those who would not see a problem with this, I do. 

In my experience one wife was bad enough!

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

 Isn't that just like a progressive,  they'll stop at nothing about insisting on running your life,  through force if need be, but they don't have the courtesy to listen to you complain about it,  it could very well be a clue as why your "one wife" might have thought likewise.  ???   

 While it's the minority progressives/liberals/and socialist in this country who are the loudest, I'm pretty sure that it's the right wing thinkers who still have the majority God bless their pee pickin' hearts as Ernie Ford used to say.   (grin)
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Dabberty

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2020, 10:10:04 PM »
I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft

Why wait for others to do that, why not start yourself?
My outdoor & DIY blog:  www.dabberty.com

Offline Moe M.

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2020, 04:15:30 AM »

I will check back occasionally to see if this site is going to return to bushcraft or just remain a repository for right-wing agitprop.  Given the state of the rest of the net I'm not optimistic.

 Seriously,  Dabberty is right,  you aren't required to read or post in any threads that you aren't comfortable with or that you may find offensive, and he makes a good point that the content in this forum is not dependent on what others post collectively as much as it depends on what each of us post individually,  it is in fact what you (we) post that drives a conversation in a specific direction.
 So, don't wait for others to start a discussion on a topic that you are interested in that pertains to your definition of the art or skills of Bushcraft,  many of us will continue to feed your thread with posts having to due with that topic,  the list of potential topics is vast, friction fire, gear, knives, cooking, shelters, sleep systems,  other cutting tools,  bus crafting with guns for sport, survival, or protection,  packable fishing tackle, and the list goes on,  pick one and get the ball rolling. 
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline madmaxine

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2020, 04:00:45 PM »
Since our travel has been limited somewhat due to the Rona (cue segue)  I've been building things that go bang,  More on that soon.  I got some bug that started gastrointestinal then morphed into a "middle of the night headache/ daytime sniffles" thing.  Rona?  Beats me.  Kelly has been after me to get tested,  but what's the point. 

"Mr A,  you have/ don't have the antibodies." 

"So what should I do?"

"Take two aspirin and don't call me unless you're really really sick."

In other words,  sam ting, different day.

My daily life has changed very little.  Infrequent trips to stores.  Wash my hands.  Lost some more weight on my second round of keto.  Sub 200 now.   Played around with a buncha gun parts and a drill press (Hint: Glock clones are the easiest).  I do wear a kerchief in the stores as a nod to the many elderly down here (I'm NOT one of them.  lol).  Don't casually shake hands.  Did a couple of Dr. appointments on Zoom (Kinda convenient).

Kelly's officially retired.  We are headed to the cabin soon.  Summer projects are a covered back porch.  A primitive shave horse to make self bows.  Trout and smallmouth fishing.  And whitewater paddling.  We'll likely come home about camping time here.  No Greg.  That's not in Sept.  lol.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2020, 05:14:45 PM »
Congrats on the weight loss.  I am a pig.   :-X
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Offline madmaxine

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2020, 06:33:26 PM »
I was a little worried about starting another round of keto with the Rona still out making people sick.  Keto dampens the immune system "they" say.  Well I have something to say to "they"...

Offline hayshaker

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Re: As if the Corona Virus wasn't enough
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2020, 09:35:48 PM »
oh my what a thread. i'm glad we did'nt drag  religeon into this whew.