Author Topic: Trying to make sense of the times  (Read 615 times)

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Offline Moe M.

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Trying to make sense of the times
« on: August 06, 2020, 07:23:29 AM »

 How many times have we uttered the words  "it can't get much worse",  well it kind of looks like they've taken on a whole new meaning,  I've lived a good life,  never had a lot money but always had what I needed,  I was born just before the end of  WW-2,  I listened to my folks tell of the great depression,  I remember the ration stamps up into the late '40's and the duck and cover drills in grade school,  lived through the the turmoil of the Vietnam era,  violence of the civil rights movement and the integration of the schools,  the Chicago riots, LA Riots, pregnant and hanging chads,  the attacks 9/11, the Boston bombings, the Obama administration,  and with each of those events was heard "it can't get much worse".     
 Then some young street thug in Ferguson gets shot by a cop,  some druggy resisting arrest gets kneeled on by a inept police officer and expires and black lives matter is born,  progressive/socialist in congress pull out all the stops to bring down a sitting President,  our federal LE departments are corrupted and go rogue,  Can it get any worse,  yep, China sends us a gift of a weaponized virus that kills tens of thousands of Americans and causes a country wide shut down,  businesses go under,  massive unemployment, and a near bankrupt economy,  and those socialist/communist on the left in congress and in state government jump on board to encourage the destruction of our way of life,  can it get much worse,  well, does cities burning,  looting,  attacking police, beatings and murder in the streets count as much worse. 
 In less than 80 days we will have another election,  our choice is between a man who has proven that he's capable and that he cares about preserving this country and the constitution but is much hated by the left,  and a career politician and former VP to Obama,  who actually has no record of accomplishments to his name,  a questionable past, and who is suffering from an illness that causes serious impaired mental capacity,  and who has vowed to lead us into socialism in order to insure economical equality for everyone,  defined that means we will all be equally poor together.
 So my friends,  It can't get much worse,  or can it ?   

 
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2020, 08:28:23 AM »
Moe you kind of ruined my day.  Good post though and in November we can either kiss this country goodbye or get another four years of something with a glimmer of hope.

Nothing lasts forever as history tells us over and over but I never dreamed it could end so quickly if all the stars get aligned this fall.
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Offline randyt

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2020, 05:06:23 PM »
Stalin called them "usefull idiots"

Offline madmaxine

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2020, 05:42:56 PM »
The civil war has already begun.  And Moe, I saw that you're praying that it doesn't get bloody.  It already has.  Just as in the first civil war it will divide families.  It already has.  We hope that it won't come down to Americans killing Americans.  It already has.  We hope that our peacekeepers can de-escalate civil unrest before it gets totally out of control.  It already has.  We hope that our elected officials will keep their oath of office and not choose allegiance with those who hate the USA.  They already have.  The election won't quell rage of the ignorant, violent, anarchists.  It'll happen in the hell of mud and blood and guts on American soil. 

Choose sides carefully.  Every single person is voting for a constitutional republic or socialism.  Not Trump or Biden.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 05:51:16 PM by madmaxine »

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2020, 07:46:07 PM »
Well stated Tony
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2020, 03:02:04 AM »
Nevermind, this topic is just naked politics that doesn't belong on this forum.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 03:08:19 AM by Phaedrus »

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2020, 05:55:52 AM »
Nevermind, this topic is just naked politics that doesn't belong on this forum.

 Well then Phaedrus,  where does it belong,  It's not allowed on campuses,  It's not allowed on twitter or face book or Google,  the lame stream media won't give fair and objective editorials or reporting of the news,  the First amendment guarantees the right to assemble, the right to express free political speech, and the right worship ones faith,  yet Democrat (read enemies of the state) socialist legislators, governors, and mayors have unconstitutionally ordered all of these rights suspended,  and now they are going even further by placing limits and unconstitutional conditions on most interstate travel.
 I read a sign yesterday that was disturbing but to the point,  it read "2020 will be viewed by historians as the year America hand cuffed it's police, locked up it's citizens,  and released it's criminals",  one of the few places left to us to communicate honestly and discuss our political views is via the last few social media outlets like this one that haven't been corrupted by the left,  just like you are suggesting now in your above post.
 Telling I think is that one of the very first businesses to be labeled non essential and put off limits by those ("Liberal/Progressive/socialist)  governors and mayors were bars, eateries, and churches,  the very kind of places that the Founders and the American rebels gathered at to discuss their ideas about Independence, Freedom from the tyranny of government,  and the measures needed to implement those freedoms.   
 So, I ask you again Phaedrus,  where then does this type of talk belong ?     :shrug:
   
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2020, 06:14:02 AM »
The civil war has already begun.  And Moe, I saw that you're praying that it doesn't get bloody.  It already has.  Just as in the first civil war it will divide families.  It already has.  We hope that it won't come down to Americans killing Americans.  It already has.  We hope that our peacekeepers can de-escalate civil unrest before it gets totally out of control.  It already has.  We hope that our elected officials will keep their oath of office and not choose allegiance with those who hate the USA.  They already have.  The election won't quell rage of the ignorant, violent, anarchists.  It'll happen in the hell of mud and blood and guts on American soil. 

Choose sides carefully.  Every single person is voting for a constitutional republic or socialism.  Not Trump or Biden.

  I totally agree with you Tony and said as much in my first post in this thread though maybe not quite as pointedly, the question that never leaves me for more than a few minutes at a time for quite a while now is, "When is enough actually going to be enough",  when are real Traditional Americans who truly love this country going to come together  to put an end to this BS,  It'll have to be soon because the door is rapidly closing on any opportunity for a correction, I don't want to see my country looking like Venezuela or Cuba, and that's just where we are heading if we don't change course PDQ. 
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2020, 08:19:06 AM »
While I think Pheadrus disregards the old adage "if you don't like something then don't read it"  this thread, and a few others lately, probably belongs in Private Discussion which has a request requirement to participate in and this disclaimer:

Do not complain about what you read here. If the content of this section is not to your liking, or if you find it offensive, remember that you chose to participate here and requested membership in this section.

Remember that this request only thread has been here a long time and it was PW's solution to preventing the posting of certain subject matter in the general discussion areas (and other areas) of the forum that would lead to some people getting "upset". 
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Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2020, 12:17:27 PM »
First off, my apologies to the forum members for my participation in a couple of threads that turned sour. I was not aware of a "Private Discussion" area within the forum until wsdstan brought it up

While I think Pheadrus disregards the old adage "if you don't like something then don't read it"  this thread, and a few others lately, probably belongs in Private Discussion which has a request requirement to participate in and this disclaimer:

Do not complain about what you read here. If the content of this section is not to your liking, or if you find it offensive, remember that you chose to participate here and requested membership in this section.

Remember that this request only thread has been here a long time and it was PW's solution to preventing the posting of certain subject matter in the general discussion areas (and other areas) of the forum that would lead to some people getting "upset". 

Now, that having been said a review of the forum rules might be in order.

    The date on this most recent post of forum rules is January 26, 2012. So it's been around awhile.

    I should not have responded to a political opinion that I did not agree with. It is outside of the forum rules.

    For those that like to start these political discussions, see below.
    (This is just a partial copy to highlight the rules as they may apply to this particular thread. The bold emphasis is mine.)



Welcome to Blades and Bushlore! Please read this first. Check often for changes
? on: January 26, 2012, 02:32:25 PM ?

Hello and welcome!

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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2020, 12:50:57 PM »
This rule is what caused the Private Discussions area to be established.  Not just for politics but for any subject which might cause discord in the main body of subjects. 

When we had aggressive moderators (which made some folks mad and I was one) they would have locked some of the recent threads down or moved them to private discussion.  That no longer occurs so my solution for people like Phaedrus is simply to say if you don't like what is being discussed stay out of the thread.  Nothing to be gained by making comments that you don't like this or that.  Phaedrus didn't have a problem telling us that the riots, looting, and attacks by the thugs was "no big deal" but when the sentiment goes the opposite direction then it is politics and does not belong on this forum.
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2020, 01:42:07 PM »
This rule is what caused the Private Discussions area to be established.  Not just for politics but for any subject which might cause discord in the main body of subjects. 

When we had aggressive moderators (which made some folks mad and I was one) they would have locked some of the recent threads down or moved them to private discussion.  That no longer occurs so my solution for people like Phaedrus is simply to say if you don't like what is being discussed stay out of the thread.  Nothing to be gained by making comments that you don't like this or that.  Phaedrus didn't have a problem telling us that the riots, looting, and attacks by the thugs was "no big deal" but when the sentiment goes the opposite direction then it is politics and does not belong on this forum.

  I'm not going to apologies for my post,  if PW finds it inappropriate for General discussions he can move it to Private discussions,  My intent wasn't to break the forum rules,  my only intent was to lament the course of the times we are all forced to live under,  and to possibly get people who think that these things (the corona virus,  the death of a black man at the hands of the police,  the riots in our cities, and the Racial discord are all unrelated,  they certainly are not,  and for obvious reasons.
  I placed my OP in the General discussion sub forum because I didn't want it buried in a private section where few members might find it.
  I've been a member here since the forum was formed so I'm well aware of the rules covering political discourse,  but I'm sure most members will agree that when the rules were introduced no one imagined that this country would be embroiled in the kind of danger that we face today,  all of our Traditional American Institutions, our history, our culture,  and our Constitutionally Guaranteed Freedoms and Liberties are all under attack by a highly organized and funded entity made up of domestic and foreign interests,  our economy is in tatters,  our cities burning,  our people confined to their homes,  their travel restricted,  and their rights to protect themselves and their property have been stripped from them.
 That's what we are experiencing now,  if this coup is successful, what can we expect in our future,  if this isn't reason enough to extend the rules a bit for the sake of our Republic,  what is ?   :pissed:     
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 05:00:57 PM »
The origins of this forum are when a bunch of guys got kicked out of another one so it was kinda "revolutionary" to begin with.
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Offline randyt

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2020, 05:32:19 PM »
it's difficult to make sense of nonsense... Nonsense is what's going on.

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2020, 07:00:31 PM »
This entry was edited after reading an opinion piece that made sense to me. Left and Right political ends (the extreme ends) are both vying for power. Their objectives are the same, control. Hitler and Mussolini both started out at one end of the spectrum and then switched when it suited them. The end result put them in total dictatorial control. For a while. It did not end well for either of them. Oh well. Apparently one must exercise caution when choosing a horse to hitch to.

     I look at the current president wanting to ban Tik-Tok, and then having the government take a generous share of the company when it is sold.
     That's right out of Mussolini's playbook. Even though he coined the term "Fascism" he thought it would more accurately be described as "corporatism". A combining of state and corporate powers.

Do you not recognize the irony, of what is happening on THIS presidents watch?

Who is in charge? Where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?

 It'll all shake out with time. I'm to old to be an active demonstrator for things right or wrong. All I have is pragmatic acceptance until uniforms show up in the driveway. At that point I can only look to Samuel Whittmore for guidance. And once again, Oh Well.

And lastly, for randyt's latest post as I was typing. Yeah, third grade name calling. Get over it. You may not be able to do better. But, we can hope.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 11:01:06 PM by Pete Bog »

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2020, 08:35:09 PM »
No irony at all to me.  This is going on because the left and their allied groups of communists, socialists, and an assorted bag of thugs cannot stand the fact that a conservative occupies the White House and the Senate is, even though badly run, in the way of the lefts agenda for this country.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline randyt

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2020, 10:47:25 PM »
there was other labels from the 1984 thread, arrogance was one and akin to a full christmas goose was the other.  There are probably a few others.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2020, 12:46:42 PM »
 :hail:
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline boomer

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2020, 08:46:42 AM »
The times are indeed changing and the complex nature of the problems we face can seem overwhelming to the point of becoming depressing. But what exactly are we lamenting?


The OP clearly contains a certain view of things. It is one that, while widely held among some folks, hardly bears up to scrutiny. Sure, it is easy to label "others" and assign blame, repeat disinformation and yearn for a time that never was. That's a privilege citizens of a certain age claim from the vantage point of the rocking chair.

The simple facts are that the "good old days" were really good for some and otherwise for a whole lot more; not just in the homeland inc that we used to know as the US of A. We have 2 allowed political parties. One detests the very idea of democracy. The other is willing to allow a limited form with no real teeth. The Republic is a fading empire as the temporary advantages of 2 global wars have been superseded by rebuilt national economies.


" Neoliberal Globalism" of the 1990's has reduced the American middle class to a shell of it's former self and inequality not seen since the Gilded Age far surpasses anything we've known. The Austrian School of economics is basically Fascist oriented and David Ricardo's Iron Law Of Wages drives our economy from Walmart to Congress.

What we confront or deny today, depending on which nonsense we accept as rational, is simply the same thing playing out that history instructs has never changed - the wealthy (however that is defined) can never be satisfied while everyone else is convinced fighting over scraps is the only option.  The children of former slaves long had the social role of "less than" but now we're all "less than".  And our kids are destined for worse. They're already livng it.

Marion Morrison never wore the uniform much less saw combat, his WW2 deferments were engineered by his employers as "essential to the war effort" and at one point he was booed off a USO stge in Hawaii by regular troops who knew what was what. A swagering onscreen persona became a show business trade mark and alcoholism a way of life in later years. But John wayne lives on in fantsy. A fantasy as as obvious and illusory as the "Left and Right" divide or the greatness of our current "leader". Our infrastructure continues to degrade. More testing does not cause more disease and the Veterans Choice Act and VA improvements were signed by Obama. Not that the current electoral alternative will save us. Only we can do that.


The current pandemic has shown us a great many things we likely don't want to see. Hospital profits are way up, profits for our our super wealthy are way, way way up. Regular folks are struggling and many are looking at going under completely through no fault of their own. We're looking at a economic tsunami of biblical proportions and the climate catastrophe rushes closer every day. The list goes on.

Yes, things a tough right now. They always have been though. The only real choice we have is to deal with reality or accept illusion and whine about it.





Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2020, 11:43:35 AM »
A quote attributed to Socrates (469-399 B.C.) by Plato (427-347 B.C.) is: The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Same *stuff*, different day. Headed into the third millennia with this. Basic human nature doesn't seem to change much.
 

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2020, 12:20:11 PM »
The times are indeed changing and the complex nature of the problems we face can seem overwhelming to the point of becoming depressing. But what exactly are we lamenting?


The OP clearly contains a certain view of things. It is one that, while widely held among some folks, hardly bears up to scrutiny. Sure, it is easy to label "others" and assign blame, repeat disinformation and yearn for a time that never was. That's a privilege citizens of a certain age claim from the vantage point of the rocking chair.

The simple facts are that the "good old days" were really good for some and otherwise for a whole lot more; not just in the homeland inc that we used to know as the US of A. We have 2 allowed political parties. One detests the very idea of democracy. The other is willing to allow a limited form with no real teeth. The Republic is a fading empire as the temporary advantages of 2 global wars have been superseded by rebuilt national economies.


" Neoliberal Globalism" of the 1990's has reduced the American middle class to a shell of it's former self and inequality not seen since the Gilded Age far surpasses anything we've known. The Austrian School of economics is basically Fascist oriented and David Ricardo's Iron Law Of Wages drives our economy from Walmart to Congress.

What we confront or deny today, depending on which nonsense we accept as rational, is simply the same thing playing out that history instructs has never changed - the wealthy (however that is defined) can never be satisfied while everyone else is convinced fighting over scraps is the only option.  The children of former slaves long had the social role of "less than" but now we're all "less than".  And our kids are destined for worse. They're already livng it.

Marion Morrison never wore the uniform much less saw combat, his WW2 deferments were engineered by his employers as "essential to the war effort" and at one point he was booed off a USO stge in Hawaii by regular troops who knew what was what. A swagering onscreen persona became a show business trade mark and alcoholism a way of life in later years. But John wayne lives on in fantsy. A fantasy as as obvious and illusory as the "Left and Right" divide or the greatness of our current "leader". Our infrastructure continues to degrade. More testing does not cause more disease and the Veterans Choice Act and VA improvements were signed by Obama. Not that the current electoral alternative will save us. Only we can do that.


The current pandemic has shown us a great many things we likely don't want to see. Hospital profits are way up, profits for our our super wealthy are way, way way up. Regular folks are struggling and many are looking at going under completely through no fault of their own. We're looking at a economic tsunami of biblical proportions and the climate catastrophe rushes closer every day. The list goes on.

Yes, things a tough right now. They always have been though. The only real choice we have is to deal with reality or accept illusion and whine about it.

  Seems you've used a lot of words just to say nothing meaningful.   :shrug:
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Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2020, 09:53:50 PM »
  Seems you've used a lot of words just to say nothing meaningful.   :shrug:

I thought the second paragraph was worth a reread. 


The OP clearly contains a certain view of things.

It is one that, while widely held among some folks, hardly bears up to scrutiny.

Sure, it is easy to label "others" and assign blame, repeat disinformation and yearn for a time that never was.

That's a privilege citizens of a certain age claim from the vantage point of the rocking chair.


Moe, you present yourself as a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. Is that a fair assessment?

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2020, 08:17:09 AM »
  Seems you've used a lot of words just to say nothing meaningful.   :shrug:

I thought the second paragraph was worth a reread. 


The OP clearly contains a certain view of things.

It is one that, while widely held among some folks, hardly bears up to scrutiny.

Sure, it is easy to label "others" and assign blame, repeat disinformation and yearn for a time that never was.

That's a privilege citizens of a certain age claim from the vantage point of the rocking chair.


Moe, you present yourself as a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. Is that a fair assessment?

 You have been placed on my ignore list,  but in my defense,  I'll make an exception in this case,  I don't believe myself to be intolerant,  however how you and I define intolerance may differ in some small or maybe even vast understanding of the word.
 Webster defines intolerance as ones inability to accept views or behavior that doesn't agree with ones own,  these may include religious, political, and social views.
 The word also suggests Bigotry, narrow mindedness, or small mindedness,  so I'm assuming that is what your assessment is of me.
 
  I suppose the answer to your question would strongly depend on who's view of the meaning of intolerance is used as a measure,  but first a little background,  I believe in law and order,  I believe in respecting the rights of others and of their property,  I believe in a strict interpretation of our Founding Documents,  and I believe in the principle of self rule.
  I am a firm believer in the Right of free political speech, I believe that we all have a right not to be physically assaulted, I don't believe that anyone has a right not to be insulted, I don't believe in a living Constitution that can be bent and molded to the times nor do I believe that legislators or governmental officials have the right or authority to create restrictions that are in opposition to the rights protected in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights,  I don't believe that congress has the right or authority to create laws, restrictions, or regulations not specifically authorized by the Constitution,  the late Constitutional scholar Justice Anton Scalia said it best when he said "The Constitution Always Means What It Says,  and IT Never Means What it Doesn't Say".
 As a retired LEO, I have learned over my career that the Law is not always just or always fair, but it's always the law, and if we as a society don't obey the law we all suffer,  so, I believe in the right to peacefully protest grievances and to petition for redress,  I also believe in a little civil disobedience in extreme cases,  I believe in equal justice under the law.
 I don't believe in intimidation, assault, destruction of personal property, looting, arson,  the interfering with public functions such as blocking streets and preventing people from accessing businesses and public buildings, I don't believe in attacking and injuring police when they are trying to keep the peace and prevent crimes,  I believe that criminal behavior should be prosecuted and punished to the fullest extent of the law,  and that criminals acting under the color of protection as peaceful protestors be arrested and held responsible for what ever property destruction or personal injury they may have cause either personally or as part of a group.
 I believe that anyone acting against the Constitution in any way other than by legal means is committing treason and should be treated as such.
 If that makes me Intolerant in your view then the answer to your question is YES,  I don't have the time or patients to suffer the actions of fools or malcontents who choose to tear down illegally what they don't agree with personally, we have laws that protect society and courts that settle disputes, we even have mechanisms in place to change civil and constitutional laws that we may object to,  violence and destruction are not a part of them,  and anyone who condones or supports the criminal actions of Antifa, BLM, or other radical extremist groups is just as guilty as the actors themselves.             
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Offline boomer

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2020, 09:59:23 AM »
Been trying to follow along here but getting confused with some of the terms used. Not picking on anyone or looking to stir anything up

If the Constitution is NOT a living document does that mean we should still prohibit women from voting, the voting age is 21 yo, Senators will be appointed by state legislators instead of direct citizen voting and slavery is still good to go? Decisions by the Supreme Court that declare money as speech seem more akin to judicial activism than designated Constitutional powers. Nor does the Constitution mention corporate personhood or any of the other special privileges currently in vogue.

If ALL laws must be followed are women prohibited from wearing pants in Arizona or any of the similar things that remain on the books?

Where is antifa? Do they have an address or a letter head, collect dues or hold conventions? Is BLM a terrorist organization? it may be worth noting that deaths attributed to either is zero while deaths attributed to identified "right wing" groups (some formerly identified as Terrorist Organizations by our government) number 38 in 2019 alone. 

Is the logic at work simply what I want is good for everyone and they must obey or is the intent to encourage citizens to respect our founding documents while acknowledging our world today is a bit different than the 18th century?

While we have always been confronted by diseases and early suppositions about causes seem like our current germ theory of disease Pasteur's work was in the 1850s and transistors weren't on the civilian market to any great extent until the 1950s. Our founders had no access to radio, TV, internet, autos, planes, instant coffee or big macs (maybe they were better for it) but still managed to craft an elegant guide based in principles of the Enlightenment that, while not without flaws, has served our nation well for quite some time and has grown with us.


The fact that we have discussions like what happens here is testament to the wisdom of the Constitution. We may disagree, sometimes with great emotion, on issues but till remain responsible citizens participating in a great experiment. That's a privilege I support. . . for everyone.

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2020, 01:21:22 PM »
Been trying to follow along here but getting confused with some of the terms used. Not picking on anyone or looking to stir anything up

If the Constitution is NOT a living document does that mean we should still prohibit women from voting, the voting age is 21 yo, Senators will be appointed by state legislators instead of direct citizen voting and slavery is still good to go? Decisions by the Supreme Court that declare money as speech seem more akin to judicial activism than designated Constitutional powers. Nor does the Constitution mention corporate personhood or any of the other special privileges currently in vogue.

If ALL laws must be followed are women prohibited from wearing pants in Arizona or any of the similar things that remain on the books?

Where is antifa? Do they have an address or a letter head, collect dues or hold conventions? Is BLM a terrorist organization? it may be worth noting that deaths attributed to either is zero while deaths attributed to identified "right wing" groups (some formerly identified as Terrorist Organizations by our government) number 38 in 2019 alone. 

Is the logic at work simply what I want is good for everyone and they must obey or is the intent to encourage citizens to respect our founding documents while acknowledging our world today is a bit different than the 18th century?

While we have always been confronted by diseases and early suppositions about causes seem like our current germ theory of disease Pasteur's work was in the 1850s and transistors weren't on the civilian market to any great extent until the 1950s. Our founders had no access to radio, TV, internet, autos, planes, instant coffee or big macs (maybe they were better for it) but still managed to craft an elegant guide based in principles of the Enlightenment that, while not without flaws, has served our nation well for quite some time and has grown with us.


The fact that we have discussions like what happens here is testament to the wisdom of the Constitution. We may disagree, sometimes with great emotion, on issues but till remain responsible citizens participating in a great experiment. That's a privilege I support. . . for everyone.

  I think you're arguing only for arguments sake , very few people I know are ignorant enough to confuse what's  original to the Constitution and what has been amended through legal Constitutional amendment, the argument that anti Constitutionalist always try to make is "if we go by the Constitution then slavery would still be legal, women could not have the right to vote,  black folks would only be counted as 1/3 of a citizen, and children would be forced to work in sweat shops for pennies an hour, bla, bla, bla,  that's a bull schitt argument.
  The Constitution is still the same as when it was penned but with legal Constitutional amendments added through the lawful process for those needed remedies,  The Constitution never mentioned slavery until it was added, the Constitution never mentioned women wearing pants and still doesn't,  If those types of laws bother you I suggest you take it up with the states that made them, they have nothing to do with the Constitution, and that's what we are discussing.
 As for the Supremes they have for a couple of centuries exceeded their authority many times,  their only responsibility is to hear cases and decide if a particular state or federal law is in fact Constitutional or not,  they don't have the right or authority to certify any laws not included in the original Constitution or any made up by congress or any not adopted to the Constitution by a valid Constitutional convention and a vote up or down by the states represented,  so no,  the Constitution is not a living document,  but it has been corrupted by over reaching legislators and Judicial Activism by the courts exceeding their authority.       
 For example,  the Constitution protects personal property rights,  yet the states have decided that the Constitution can legally be violated if the state decides it has a better use for it,  the Constitution explicitly protects the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,  yet the congress and the courts have decided that the Constitution can be legally violated when it comes to ending human life AKA abortion,  the Constitution and the Bill of Rights stipulates clearly that the Second amendment Right belongs expressly to "The People" not the government, and also makes it clear that the Right Shall not be Infringed,  yet congress and the courts have decided that the Constitution can be legally violated by them,  by infringing about 22,000 times and counting,  just for starters. 
 The only problem with the Constitution and our other founding documents is that they get in the way of small men with small minds and big ideas.   
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline randyt

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2020, 04:23:44 PM »
interesting times we live in...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 05:07:54 PM by randyt »

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2020, 06:08:57 PM »
It can, and will ?get worse?.  Admit it or not, we are in a shooting civil war. 

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2020, 01:35:37 AM »
Since Moe has agreed that he is intolerant of people with differing opinions, I now know where he stands.

Moe also likes to spout off about what the Constitution is and is not. I present below a bit of Article 3 of the Constitution. 

Section 1.
The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.
Section 2.
The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.
In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.
The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.
Section 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.


The actual Constitution would seem to be at odds with Moe's quote: (I believe he's talking about Section 2.)
 
As for the Supremes they have for a couple of centuries exceeded their authority many times, their only responsibility is to hear cases and decide if a particular state or federal law is in fact Constitutional or not, they don't have the right or authority to certify any laws not included in the original Constitution or any made up by congress or any not adopted to the Constitution by a valid Constitutional convention and a vote up or down by the states represented, so no, the Constitution is not a living document, but it has been corrupted by over reaching legislators and Judicial Activism by the courts exceeding their authority.

And for all of Moe's rhetoric about his love of law and order and his flowery dissertation on what he believes (as the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" plays softly in the background), he advocates arresting and deporting Senators, Congressmen, Governors and Mayors. But only if they are left leaning. And then he strips them of their citizenship so he can declare them enemy combatants and try them by a Military tribunal. As I understand it, only members of enemy forces during wartime can be tried by military tribunal. According to section 3 of Article 3 of the constitution (as printed above) Congress determines punishment for treason. But Moe shipped half of congress to Gitmo!

This is Moe's quote:

 "I believe that every anarchist, every domestic terrorist, and every paid agent who advocates the violent takeover of this country, up to and including those leftist legislators, governors, and mayors that support and encourage the anarchists should be rounded up as soon as possible and shipped to our prison base in Cuba, then tried in a military tribunal for treason and sabotage against the United States of America, what punishment they are given is of no concern, the more severe the better including banishment from this country for the rest of their lives and beyond."

 
"and beyond" he said.
Holy cow, did Moe miss the part of the Constitution that stated "but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood," ?

Moe summed up one of his posts with:
 
The only problem with the Constitution and our other founding documents is that they get in the way of small men with small minds and big ideas.   

With that I can agree, but I doubt Moe sees how ironic that has been the past 4 years. 

And lastly to Moe: You can put me back on your "Ignore List"  What you mistook for arrogance is actually contemp.

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2020, 04:57:21 AM »


With that I can agree, but I doubt Moe sees how ironic that has been the past 4 years. 

And lastly to Moe: You can put me back on your "Ignore List"  What you mistook for arrogance is actually contemp.
   
 No need Pete, you weren't off,  I just granted you a one time dispensation,  actually I can live with contempt,  you won't be the first nor I suspect the last,  and coming from your ilk it's more an honor than a disappointment.

 Good talk.    :popcorn:
   
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline boomer

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2020, 07:46:25 AM »
The argument/discussion concerning the Constitution as a living document has been going on for well over 200 years with either side claiming victory from time to time yet neither prevailing. Philosophical differences tend to play out this way. One may strongly support either side of the discussion and not lose sight of the fact that we remain fellow citizens with all that demands in terms of responsibilities, including comity.

There are times when structural problems in any society require re evaluation of certain basic assumptions. Times change, influence shifts, new challenges arise. The old adage that "What does not bend breaks" is worth remembering. It should go without saying that we do best when we deal with what actually is and not what we wish it was. If our previous choices have led us to current problems then it is the choices as well as the problems that require re evaluation

The intemperate assessments of others and draconian soultions mentioned from time to time in the comments on this topic, while simply hyperbole, are  expressions of feelings of impotence. A natural response (even if overly dramtic) when the problems we currently face are of sufficient magnitude.

It would appear senseless to berate a choice of 1095 steel for a user knife because personal opinion held S30V as the only acceptible steel. To suggest that those choosing 1095 should be forcebly limited in their pursuits in the outdoors or banished outright could be easily recognized intolerance. Or maybe if the only source of information chosen to provide information endlessly repeated that stance some might find it "reasonable" or even "obvious". Do not underestimate the role and effects of successful conditioning.


We have to look at what actually is.




Offline boomer

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Re: Trying to make sense of the times
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2020, 07:53:21 AM »
"It can, and will ?get worse?.  Admit it or not, we are in a shooting civil war."

And WHAT exactly, sir, do you know of war?