Western fires

[wsdstan]

Lots of fires in Wyoming and parts of Montana.  We can smell the smoke and it is very hazy to the west.

Here is last nights sunset............

[wolfy]

We had very similar sunsets here last week, but the air quality has vastly improved over the last couple of days and there is not nearly as much haze evident during the daylight hours.......so it's not too bad!

[wsdstan]

Haze is not visible here in the day either Craig.  Didn't smell smoke this morning but the wind was a bit more to the south than yesterday.

[crashdive123]

The western fires need to end.  Planning a trip to S. Dakota soon.

[wsdstan]

If you get anywhere near Belle Fourche or Spearfish let me know.  I will meet you somewhere if time allows.

[crashdive123]

Will do.

[Mannlicher]

Evidently social justice warriors are starting some of the fires

[boomer]

That's a joke right? Not funny to folks out west but still it's supposed to be a joke, right?

After watching a nearby mountain fire (witnessed as started by lightening) for a couple of weeks and breating heavily laden smoky air from fires 2 states away for longer some may not get the humor - especially the newly homeless.

The assertions about western fires being set by politically motivated folks, either right or left, was immediately debunked, source identified and confirmed pretty quickly just in case some may have missed it. There is a single case where arson may have played a role but it is not being treated as politically motivated.

Sorry to get worked up about this but to the many, many folks who lost everything in the middle of all the rest of what is going on joking or repeating interweb nonsense seems pretty lame.

The conditions that we have now were not created by human contributions to climate changes but play a major role in making things worse. If we don't man up and get serious about our situation then it's very likely our hildren and grandchildren will not fare well. And that is just science not interweb nonsense.

Nature doesn't belong to a political party or care about rumors and conspiracy tales.

[wsdstan]

One of the planned basic tactics of the foreign based terrorists at the time of the 911 attack was to set fires, pollute water sources, and create havoc in the National Forests and wild lands.  When Bin Laden was killed the US gathered a lot of material indicating plans to use fire as a tactic.  The current crop of riots and looting is burning cities so what makes you think they would not follow the tactics other terrorists laid out in the years following the 911 attack?  No one says all fires are caused by terrorists as many lightening and campfires are the cause as well as intentional burning of areas by our own forest service that get away from control.  The large Colorado fire in 2013 is blamed on terrorists although no group can be identified. 

The number of fires in the west is staggering and to say none are set on purpose ignores reality.

 

[boomer]

The number of fires in the West is indeed staggering. And a lot of folks are being affected. The millions of acres of dead standing wood identified by forestry and biology researchers, the continuing drought conditions and extreme hot weather events reported by climatologists and observed changes in weather patterns have far more to do with human contributions to climate change than some interweb conspiracy nonsense and continual attempts to find boogey men instead of dealing with reality.

Since you bought the subject up:   While we can all appreciate the significance of today's date we might also stop to consider how things might have been different had not our CIA funded bin Laden after he'd been kicked out by the Saudis in order to continue the Brzezinski Doctrine and the USA had not based military aircraft on Saudi soil post Iraq1. Check the factual historical record.

But sometimes it seems easier to deny reality than to accept responsibility, even partial responsibility. Unfortunately, it only seems that way until reality demands to be acknowledged.

[boomer]

a

[wsdstan]

Actually you are pretty good at denying reality boomer.  You also introduce facts that, while true in most cases, don't  have anything to do with the subject.  How many fires are being set by people on purpose and not by nature? 

[boomer]

Current conditions concerning forests and weather speak for themselves, as does the historical record.

IF you can cite any cases of forest fires purposely set I'm open to it. Not rumors, suppositions or conspiracy theories just factual evidence that can be verified.

As far as I know out of the many acres burned, homes destroyed, lives lost and people fleeing the fires there is 1 single instance  being investigated but there is no political motive known or suspected as was emphasized by the law enforcement official making the statement.


That's the problem with facts - they don't necessarily conform to opinions no matter how fervently defended. . . or to what ends they're intended.

[wsdstan]

In your first question about citing cases of forest fires purposely set there are several cases on the books and the reasons given run from accidental to being angry about something.  Prison time and fines as high as $3.6 million are noted on one site.  Forensics can often tell how it started but there is no way, even when they are caught in the act, to determine why unless the perpetrator is inclined to tell you.  You should know that as well as I.

Nonetheless here are some cases, all fairly old since it takes awhile to go through court I suppose.  Many of the cases in the second link are accidental like shooting fireworks, but a few are not. 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/missouri-man-charged-with-starting-13-forest-fires-in-california       (this is from October 2019)

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/prevention/outreach/wildfire_arson/court_cases.html  When you go to this link it is pinned to cases. When you have reviewed those go to motives.  Without naming a case or person they point out the following as a wild land fire motive:

Extremism
Fires set to further social, political or religious causes. Examples of extremist motivated targets include abortion clinics and animal laboratories. The targets of political terrorists reflect the focus of the terrorists? wrath.

You will love this one: 

https://www.nps.gov/articles/wildfire-causes-and-evaluation.htm

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

I think Gavin said it was Climate Change and it wasn't debatable....

It's not debatable! 

It's Science!

It's N O T  DEBATABLE!



Alan

[Moe M.]

One of the planned basic tactics of the foreign based terrorists at the time of the 911 attack was to set fires, pollute water sources, and create havoc in the National Forests and wild lands.  When Bin Laden was killed the US gathered a lot of material indicating plans to use fire as a tactic.  The current crop of riots and looting is burning cities so what makes you think they would not follow the tactics other terrorists laid out in the years following the 911 attack?  No one says all fires are caused by terrorists as many lightening and campfires are the cause as well as intentional burning of areas by our own forest service that get away from control.  The large Colorado fire in 2013 is blamed on terrorists although no group can be identified. 

The number of fires in the west is staggering and to say none are set on purpose ignores reality.

 Excellent post Stan,  and right on the money as far as I'm concerned.   

[Moe M.]

The number of fires in the West is indeed staggering. And a lot of folks are being affected. The millions of acres of dead standing wood identified by forestry and biology researchers, the continuing drought conditions and extreme hot weather events reported by climatologists and observed changes in weather patterns have far more to do with human contributions to climate change than some interweb conspiracy nonsense and continual attempts to find boogey men instead of dealing with reality.

Since you bought the subject up:   While we can all appreciate the significance of today's date we might also stop to consider how things might have been different had not our CIA funded bin Laden after he'd been kicked out by the Saudis in order to continue the Brzezinski Doctrine and the USA had not based military aircraft on Saudi soil post Iraq1. Check the factual historical record.

But sometimes it seems easier to deny reality than to accept responsibility, even partial responsibility. Unfortunately, it only seems that way until reality demands to be acknowledged.

  Interesting the way you can discount politics as a possible reason for some of the forest fires yet casually point out that America's meddling in the affairs of state of other countries is what causes terrorist acts by foreign entities as "our own fault",  may I remind you that America because of it's strength, power, and uniqueness in this world has more or less been forced to act as the worlds police to put down tyranny when possible,  as the worlds fire dept. to put out political fires when they threaten stability in different parts of the world, and why the President of the United States is commonly referred to as the leader of the free world,  our position of power and influence on the world stage wasn't necessarily our choice,  it was thrust upon us.
  And while we are discussing facts not entered into evidence,  Global Warming as a man made cause for some of the natural disasters and un natural ones as well was debunked many yeas ago as nothing more than a political ploy to leverage more funding for scientific research,  to allow the UN to extort more control over member states, and to force environmental regulations and limits on the larger industrialized nations while giving a pass to pollute at will by the under developed nations of the world including China  which not only is the worlds biggest offender, it's also the worlds largest manufacturer,  the real facts are that the words temp has not risen to dangerous levels, the polar bears are not going extinct, the ice caps are not changing cyclically anymore than they have in the past history of this rock, and after hundreds of millions of years of the  earths warming, of ice ages, of forest fires raging for centuries blacken the skies and blocking the sun,  the earth has managed to repair itself and adjust to what ever changes it has to,  and that's why the corrupt scientist who want to continue riding the gov. funded gravy train changed to name from Global Warming to Climate Change.
 And the bottom line is still about power, greed, and corruption  AKA Politics,  so yes, most of the violence we see in our streets and the fires that burn in our country whether in our cities or in our forests has to be acknowledged to be politically motivated,  it should also be acknowledged that it's the socialist left allied with globalist extremists that are the root cause of all of our political and social troubles,  and that anyone who knowingly or unknowingly supports the America is bad theory or that Climate Change is the most important danger that we face today is part of the problem,  and certainly not part of any solutions.     

[boomer]

In your first question about citing cases of forest fires purposely set there are several cases on the books and the reasons given run from accidental to being angry about something.  Prison time and fines as high as $3.6 million are noted on one site.  Forensics can often tell how it started but there is no way, even when they are caught in the act, to determine why unless the perpetrator is inclined to tell you.  You should know that as well as I.

Nonetheless here are some cases, all fairly old since it takes awhile to go through court I suppose.  Many of the cases in the second link are accidental like shooting fireworks, but a few are not. 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/missouri-man-charged-with-starting-13-forest-fires-in-california       (this is from October 2019)

https://www.usfa.fema.gov/prevention/outreach/wildfire_arson/court_cases.html  When you go to this link it is pinned to cases. When you have reviewed those go to motives.  Without naming a case or person they point out the following as a wild land fire motive:

Extremism
Fires set to further social, political or religious causes. Examples of extremist motivated targets include abortion clinics and animal laboratories. The targets of political terrorists reflect the focus of the terrorists? wrath.

You will love this one: 

https://www.nps.gov/articles/wildfire-causes-and-evaluation.htm

Fair enough. I opened that door and think I get your point.  I should have been more specific as to the topic. One could look much farther back than the 1990's , the 1970s, the 19th century or to pre contact periods and earlier to find similar examples. Indigenous peoples set fires to manage forests and grasslands and very likely had much better outcomes and it is well known that certain types of trees evolved to rely on fire as part of their life cycle.

The issue today in 2020 is the current fire season and the notion that fires are being set by mysterious persons for political ends.  For that claim no factual evidence exists nor was any provided. Not saying it couldn't happen or hasn't happened at some point but that point is not today.

Five hundred thousand folks fleeing out of control fires in one section of the country, 6,6 million acres burned or burning an entire region bathed in smoke hardly seems like a trifling thing to me, especially when very credible scientists with well established careers continue to warn us this is the way things will go unless we make profound changes.

The conspiracy nonsense is merely a symptom of the breadth and depth of social anxiety we are experiencing. Sometimes there really are monsters under the bed and pulling the covers over our heads just won't help.

When learning to interact with folks with psychological problems it is important not to support the fantastic delusions but instead re orient them to reality. Sometimes, in my experience,  that can be difficult but then I'm not an expert in that area nor am I a climate scientist. But I do rely on the facts presented by experts in those areas.

Maybe it's time we come together by putting political dogma aside and deal with thigs as they are. 

Personally, I like the outdoors and all that goes with it.  I want those who follow to be able to experience a healthy environment in their own way. And THOSE are facts.


 










The topic under discussion however, I take to be the fires in 2020 and the joke about political actors purposely starting fires.

[Pete Bog]

Came across a news story:     https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/facebook-to-take-down-false-arson-posts/ar-BB18YvAa?ocid=msedgdhp

But . . . . .  there are those that won't believe anything unless is comes from FOX NEWS, so .....:    https://www.foxnews.com/us/rumors-far-right-far-left-setting-fires

And :   https://fox26medford.com/medford-police-fight-false-posts-about-arson/

so if you wear a tinfoil hat, tighten it down another half turn. After all, if FOX NEWS prints it, it must be true.  (_{suppressing rampaging  mirth complete with ROFL and knee slapping} )

[crashdive123]

Some of the fires were accidents.  Some were caused by nature.  Some were caused by arson.  To try, at this point to ascribe motives for those arsonists starting fires is difficult.  Here is one news story to make you wonder.  https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/12/four-arrested-for-arson-on-the-west-coast-one-a-regular-attendee-of-anti-cop-rallies-in-seattle/

I will add this......  To ascribe motives of an individual because of the sources of their information is nothing more than being a troll.  It is not appreciated and has no place on this forum.

[Moe M.]

Some of the fires were accidents.  Some were caused by nature.  Some were caused by arson.  To try, at this point to ascribe motives for those arsonists starting fires is difficult.  Here is one news story to make you wonder.  https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/12/four-arrested-for-arson-on-the-west-coast-one-a-regular-attendee-of-anti-cop-rallies-in-seattle/

I will add this......  To ascribe motives of an individual because of the sources of their information is nothing more than being a troll.  It is not appreciated and has no place on this forum.

   

[Pete Bog]

I will add this......  To ascribe motives of an individual because of the sources of their information is nothing more than being a troll.  It is not appreciated and has no place on this forum.

Aaahhh, the irony!   

[wsdstan]

The little news item came from Boulder Colorado of all places. 

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/09/13/cu-boulder-wildfires-humans/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=social&fbclid=IwAR2V18rgwsRj6dRpRCu2lJX07I3FfaEtgS5y-GgkH2YGatCalOrVW7m6uz0

[Pete Bog]

The article you mentioned is titled "CU Study: 97% Of Wildfires In 24-Year Span Started By Humans" .
97%! is astonishing. What is even more surprising is the paragraph that says, Quote

"?Our fire problem is not going away anytime soon,? said co-author Jennifer Balch, director of Earth Lab, a Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences Fellow. ?This provides greater justification that prescribed burns, where safe, can mitigate the risk and threat of future wildfires.?"

If I read that right, she is advocating for more fires to be started by humans in the form of prescribed burns, where safe.

We'll see how that works out. I can't even count how many "Prescribed burns" have gotten away from government agencies and turned into raging wildfires. USFWS, NPS, USFS, and the list goes on. The WMA (Wildlife Management Areas) administered by state agencies have not fared any better. The best we can hope for is responsible forestry management in the future by our government agencies. Their past performance has been questionable at best.

Earth Lab joined forces with CIRES to do their data number crunching. I wonder if they have looked at the data for prescribed burns gone awry. 

Do a Google search for "Prescribed burns gone wrong".  Holy Cow, what a list. So how does that happen? In the case of one US government agency, a prescribed burn is scheduled weeks in advance. Equipment and personnel are brought into place. Sometimes at great expense owing to the remote locations. When the day arrives, everything is in place and it's "SHOW TIME!"
   Wait, wait, wait, the wind is steady at 20 MPH and gusts to 30. Oh never mind, the calendar said we're to do it this day and so it shall be. After all we have gone to great effort and expense to assemble everyone here today.
   And so the fire is lit and within an hour, the fight is on. The fire is topped out on the slough grass and is running downwind at 20 miles an hour. Airborn cattail fluff is carrying burning embers ahead of the fireline and the great and all knowledgeable facility manager, the guy pulling down 6 figures a year because he's so well educated, wonders what happened. He calls for the wildfire management teams, but they are three states away and won't be on site for at least a day. Helicopters are mustered, but they won't be on site until tomorrow either. Meanwhile the fire burns through the night. Local fire departments try to save local homes, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
    Blame for the fire? No where to be found. The calendar set a date for a prescribe burn and that is what they did. They just followed orders. Sue the government for your loss? You better get real cozy with the Federal Tort Claims Act. Good luck.
    The upshot of all this is, some pencil geek in some office at University of Colorado said more prescribed burns, if safe, would help reduce fire related losses. Reminds me of an old saying about government projects.
    You hire an engineer to design it, a draftsman to draw it up, a technician to measure it out with a micrometer and then mark it a piece of chalk. Lastly, you hire an an ape to cut it with an axe. And that's just about how a "safe" prescribed burn goes.
    How to get around this boondoggle? Hire people with courage to do the right thing. Give them the freedom and authority take responsibility for their decisions and then back them up. This would require a paradigm shift in the very culture of government service. Highly unlikely to ever happen. But, I'm just a cynical old man. What we have is not perfect, but it's better than many other parts of the world. 

[boomer]

The little news item came from Boulder Colorado of all places. 

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/09/13/cu-boulder-wildfires-humans/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=social&fbclid=IwAR2V18rgwsRj6dRpRCu2lJX07I3FfaEtgS5y-GgkH2YGatCalOrVW7m6uz0

Good article it adds some things well worth considering, thanks.


After witnessing the catastrophic results of an approved but ill advised "preventative burn" it's hard not to find fault with Forest Service policies over a very long time. How and why those policies came into being is another issue however necessary to consider.

The article also acknowledges the effects of climate change.  An oblique acknowledgement of the elephant in the room. When we begin acknowledging the direct relationship between long standing industrial policies and human contributions to climate change we'll have turned a corner that may well lead us in a a better direction.

That day is coming. Just hope it's sooner rather than (too) later.

[Alan R McDaniel Jr]

In areas of high fuel production, you can have mechanical/physical removal of fuel, prescribed burns or wildfires.  Choose your poison.

Alan