Author Topic: Remembering the line from an old song  (Read 590 times)

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Online Moe M.

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Remembering the line from an old song
« on: November 01, 2020, 07:31:57 AM »
 I'm sitting in my favorite recliner having my first cup of coffee of the day,  I've turned my clocks back for daylight savings,  I sure hope that foolishness ends before I pass on.
 The coffee is bitter this morning,  it's my own fault,  I usually spend a bit more for my coffee and I've been enjoying the brand for longer than I can remember, after reading a post on another forum about the the great flavor of Choc full 'o Nuts Coffee I decided why not give it a try,  I had tried it before but didn't remember what it tasted like (that alone should have been a clue),  anyhow, I bought two cans, I opened one and my first pot was terrible,  and so was each subsequent pot after that until the can was empty.
 I know what your thinking,  if it was that bad (and it was) why not just bite the bullet and throw it in the trash or give it away,  well I was raised to never throw anything away that's not covered in green fuzz or moving,  and it was bad enough that I wouldn't pass it on to anyone that didn't deserve it.
 So I put the can in the pantry reserved for emergency food,  well the can was in my way and I figured why not open it up and substitute a couple of tablespoons of it in with my favorite brand in my usual 10 cup morning pot, so I did,  and now I'm faced with bitter coffee for however long the can lasts,  sometimes it just doesn't pay to be frugal.
 OK, but that's not what this post is about,  what it's actually about is the future of this country that we all say we love so much,  I don't know why but as I was sitting here the line from an old Sinatra song that says "The end is near" drifted into my head, and I couldn't help but think about how the election will turn out or what kind of havoc it will cause.
 But the bottom line is that this is not like past elections where we were arguing differences in political ideology or social differences between Democrats and Republicans,  that old democrat party no longer exists,  what's at stake now is the future of our Republic,  we are deciding whether we want to continue as a Constitutional Democratic Republic or whether we want to adopt the type of "socialism" enjoyed in Russia or China, or worse the type of socialism visited upon the people of Venezuela.
 But in the end this Globalist lead assault on freedom, human rights,  and religion is intended to create a new one world government based most likely with the UN at it's head.
 So if you're going to vote on Tuesday,  remember just what it is that's at stake, and if you haven't already voted and don't intend to vote, you may want to reconsider.
 President Trump has proven his ability to lead and shown us where his loyalties lay,  he truly does want to make America great,  and he's been getting the job done so far,  on the other hand the Democrats under to guidance of Obama (still),  Pelosi, Schumer, Harris, and OAC have done nothing but obstruct the country's business, spent tens of millions of tax payer dollars and wasted four years of congressional time simply because they couldn't accept their 2016 loss.
 They are professing to scrub the Constitution,  crush your economy, erase your history, destroy American culture, end the limits on government while dissolving all of our protective rights,  remember the key points Obama sited that had to be overcome in order to create "Fundamental change" in this country,  "the Constitution, Guns, and God",  well all three are still under attack by the Progressive Democrat Socialist Party,  make your choice,  but be prepared to live with it.     

 If this post breaks any forum rules or offends any members who disagree,  I make no apologies, it's just that important to hide under the rug,  report it,  call for my banning,  or get over it and do what's right,  vote for your Constitution the way the Founders intended when they created it and signed it.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 08:23:47 AM by Moe M. »
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Offline madmaxine

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2020, 08:16:00 AM »
Lol.  I like 8 o'clock coffee.

I am an unapologetic constitutionalist.

I don't know what I will do if we go socialist.  I'm a little scared of waking up on Nov. 4 and pulling up the news.

Online Moe M.

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2020, 01:33:34 PM »
Lol.  I like 8 o'clock coffee.

I am an unapologetic constitutionalist.

I don't know what I will do if we go socialist.  I'm a little scared of waking up on Nov. 4 and pulling up the news.

 I'll give 8 o'clock coffee a try. 

 You are a true patriot and friend.

 I don't believe we will,  though there seems to be an awful lot of people who have been infected by the empty promises that the socialist spew,  the polls (if they can be believed) are close, the vote may very well go their way,  but I won't,  and I've a feeling that I won't be standing alone.

 God help us and bless this land,  we're going to need all the help we can get.    :cheers:
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Offline Alan R McDaniel Jr

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2020, 02:12:14 PM »
The US Constitution has served us well for over 230 years and will continue to do so into the future.  God has blessed this country because we turn to him for guidance.  Guns, well "all those guns" and knowing how and when to use them will insure that no man or men will impose tyranny on us ever again.

Tyrants always meet the same end.

Alan

Offline madmaxine

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2020, 03:54:54 PM »
I know we get called the silent majority.  But sometimes you have a crisis of faith.  The other day I sat around a big table at an eatery at a bimonthly ham radio club meeting.  I'm the fng.  As we talked I slowly realized that pretty much all the old farts were vets.  Most were pilots.  All had college degrees.  Most retired LEO's.  A Fed or 2.  And they supported Trump.  Smart accomplished guys.  If we weren't talking radio or flying, we were talking best gun ranges around.

Hardly a bunch of deplorables.  I walked out with a spring in my step.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2020, 04:43:22 PM »
Trump has done a good job (IMHO) in his four years in office and that is amazing given the obstructionists he has had to deal with.  You know where the problem is when there is a call to expand the Supreme Court within an hour after Barrett is approved by the Senate.  AOC was the designated spokesman for that statement. 

I believe the Constitution is the best governing document ever written.  One thing that has occurred over the last few years is the constant attack on the system we have by people who have benefitted beyond belief from living in it.  I am offended by the corruption, by the media, and by politicians in general. 

I was never a fan of Harry S, Truman except for two things.  First is the bomb.  I believe it saved American lives and was the right thing to do.  The other was when he said "My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference."   How right he was.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 04:48:53 PM by wsdstan »
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2020, 07:47:51 PM »
There's another choice that Harry forgot to include....a politician in a whore house. :coffee:
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2020, 07:52:49 PM »
Craig, Bill Clinton would have taken that job.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline wolfy

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2020, 08:08:50 PM »
Yeah, no doubt, but you can't blame the guy.....considering that thing he had to live with! :puke:
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Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2020, 01:29:51 AM »
Trump has shown great loyalty to Putin and done all he can to loot the US for his own enrichment.  He's the most corrupt person to ever set foot in the WH, and that's saying a lot!  I will be sure to cast my vote elsewhere.  I sincerely hope there's not enough fools in the US to keep Trump in power; he belongs in prison.  JMOHO.

Online Moe M.

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2020, 05:45:47 AM »
Trump has shown great loyalty to Putin and done all he can to loot the US for his own enrichment.  He's the most corrupt person to ever set foot in the WH, and that's saying a lot!  I will be sure to cast my vote elsewhere.  I sincerely hope there's not enough fools in the US to keep Trump in power; he belongs in prison.  JMOHO.

 LOL, And now we know for sure that there's at least one amongst us who loves the taste of blue flavored Cool Aid,  first Clinton called us deplorables,  Obama called us domestic enemies because we clung to our Constitution, our God, and our guns, AOC and her Squad called us Rightwing M-----F--kers on TV, Biden this week called us Chumps, and now according to Phaedrus (whom we all knew was a American turncoat and globalist socialist minion calls us (most of whom have taken our oath to Protect & Defend the US Constitution Seriously) who support the President Fools, a president by the way who truly has put his country and it's people above himself,  who all the while being under fire by a bunch of radical Progressive/Socialist/Globalist/fascist/traitors has managed to repair a badly broken economy, kick our real enemies a$$, put the radical middle east terrorist in their place,  taken us out of the Paris accord,  made the UN actually pay it's dues,  brokered two Peace Deals in the middle east that are working,  put down the ISIS advance,  took out several of America's worst Arab enemies,  calmed strained US  relations with Russia and North Korea,  is getting us out of the World policing business and bringing our troops home, has appointed over 300 US Constitutional Circuit Court judges and three US Supreme Court Justices,  renewed our alliance with Israel and authored a peace treaty between the UAE and Israel that is also working,  he's managed to lower taxes across the board,  bring back manufacturing, make the US energy independent,  raised the living standards of low income and minority Americans, because of Trump this country has seen the highest employment rate for people of color ever in this country and the greatest rate of home ownership by minorities ever in this country's history,  and that's in only three and one half years into his first term.
 He also straightened out the VA,  made it possible for our Vets to get help from any doctor or medical facility in the country without waiting,  created the Platinum Plan to help people of color create businesses and increase their wealth,  he encourages family and fights for the unborn.
 There's much more that I could list off the top of my head,  but this post is way too long as it is and I haven't listed the accomplishments of the most recent past democrats that have held the oval office and sat in the halls of congress, so here are the ones that I can remember -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 Enough said.       
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 05:51:55 AM by Moe M. »
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Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2020, 07:08:04 AM »
Things  changed,  things always change. So it goes.

As a veteran and supporter of both the Constitution AND democracy our Republic has endured for as long as it has,problems and all, because of our citizens accepting responsibility, even when passionately disagreeing with each other.

The idea of "our Constitution, our God, and our guns . . ." as the qualifier of a citizen's worth is, to me, simply unAmerican and certainly not patriotic in essence or practice. We have to be better than that folks - especially now.

I have seen war up close and personal on the ground. What our rhetoric might fuel these days is not something any sane citizen wishes for. The bloodiest war we ever fought was our Civil War. Anyone who wants to replay that disaster in modern times is a fool or worse.

As much as I support and believe in our Republic it has to be acknowledged that we also operate as an Empire. Pick your favorite starting date or rationale but it is simply a matter of definition. Our Empire is a variation in a traditional theme but an Empire none the less. The fact that we benefit from the arrangement changes nothing.

One thing to understand is that the Empire creates the ruler. Trump (love him, hate him or put up with him) would not be where he is if he as to have run right after Eisenhower or or Nixon. It was only possible after Obama for a whole lot of reasons; some of which Obama should have been impeached for if we actually followed the Constitution. Same goes for GW Bush. But we don't do that and haven't for a long time. we surrendered our 4th Amendment, the 5th along with it without a whimper much less a shout. And so it goes.

We are at another point where our choices will have very long term effects. It has happened before and sometimes we got it right and sometimes not. Such is the nature of human affairs. Our Constitution is a map and it's important to remember the map is not the deatination.

I believe in the usefulness of science and critical thinking. As such, I believe in facts. Anthropogenic Climate Disruption for instance is real and we ignore it at our existential peril. After a long life and decades in the medical business i understand people are just people and afflictions to which we're prone have no concept of poiltical dogma. I believe that in the richest nation in human history no child should go to bed hungry or be denied medical care.

I beleive in our Constitution and the promises of democracy. I believe we are NOT the best we can be but that we can get there if we pull together and recognize that we belong to something bigger than ourselves. That something is not perfect and it may never be  but it is better than anything else as far as I can see.

Regardless of this election's outcome I'll be sitting by the 30 year old fire ring come evening tonight and most nights as long as I can.





Offline Dabberty

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2020, 11:14:59 AM »
President Trump has proven his ability to lead and shown us where his loyalties lay
You do realize that almost the whole world is laughing at him and his incapability to lead, right ?

Surely you will now also label me as some coolaid drinker or whatever crap you mean, that is exactly what I wrote in your topic about the forum dying.
If someone does not agree with you, you take it personal and start calling names and labels.

If trump get re-elected, you really need to whish for your favorite phrase to come true..."god bless america".

Good luck to you all with these elections!
My outdoor & DIY blog:  www.dabberty.com

Offline duxdawg

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2020, 11:36:39 AM »
Poverty and ignorance are the starting point for everyone.
The real question is under what circumstances can most of us rise above that.

With God's blessing; Liberty (Freedom + Responsibility), the Constitution (per the vision of the Founding Fathers) and a Free Market (which no country, including America, has ever had) allow each of us to make the most of our time here on Earth. No other system known to mankind offers as much opportunity for prosperity.

Sadly the Left in America is sold out for tyranny.
The rotten fruits of their evil agenda inevitably result in greater poverty, misery, slavery (taxes) and death for all... except the 1%-6% that are their "elite", whom live opulent lives devoid of consequences on the backs of everyone else's labors.
So sad.

Some good reading on how and why our nation is where it's at.
https://www.hillsdale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2005-Progressivism_and_the_Transformation_of_Amer_Govt.pdf

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/politics-means-use-abuse-scandal/


Offline wolfy

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2020, 11:56:27 AM »
I ain't touchin' this one with a 10 foot pole! :rofl:
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Online Moe M.

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2020, 02:12:37 PM »
President Trump has proven his ability to lead and shown us where his loyalties lay
You do realize that almost the whole world is laughing at him and his incapability to lead, right ?

Surely you will now also label me as some coolaid drinker or whatever crap you mean, that is exactly what I wrote in your topic about the forum dying.
If someone does not agree with you, you take it personal and start calling names and labels.

If trump get re-elected, you really need to whish for your favorite phrase to come true..."god bless america".

Good luck to you all with these elections!

 Americans have a long history of not giving a Shatt what the rest of the world thinks about us,  but we respect your right to insult us in any way that suits you, and we've never censored your opinions or your ridicule,  it's too bad that the socialist left doesn't feel as obliging.
 Feel free at any time to stick your nose into another country's affairs anytime it pleases you my friend,  if nothing else it does add to the post count on this "dying forum".
 And no I don't label you a cool aid drinker,  I simply take your words as coming from one more European who is totally ignorant of our history, culture, or our politics,  which I might add is not at all uncommon. 
 If Trump is reelected I will have the feeling that my prayers for my country as well as the prayers of all of my patriot countrymen have been answered.

 Thanks again Dabberty for reaching out.   :shrug:
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 02:18:17 PM by Moe M. »
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2020, 07:19:23 PM »
Dabberty I really do not understand why you think the world is laughing at the US.  Trump has accomplished a great deal in the last four years.  There are parts of the world that hope Trump wins and continues the progress made in trade and economic issues.  The parts of the world that are not happy are most likely unable to continue their trade practices that favored them over us.  Countries that happily shipped all they could here while limiting what we could ship there with restrictions and tariffs.  Trump has done much to level the playing field in international commerce.

A Trump victory in this election will continue the economic growth and the cultural healing from the wounds that Obama and his Muslim cohorts inflicted on us. 

If China supports Biden in this election it is only because they cannot have their way with Trump, which is good for us.

Phaedrus you need to throw out a few sources on your claim that Trump is looting the US.  Seems as far from the truth as you can get.  Corruption?  Take a look at Biden and Obama for text book corruption.

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Offline Dabberty

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2020, 12:29:50 AM »
@ Moe, if America keeps proclaiming to be the leader of the free world, and keeps sticking their noses in other countries businesses/politics/affairs/oil fields, then yes, other countries take also interest in your elections
And your insults keep just flowing, calling me ignorant.. keep it going, I don't mind it.
I just hope that there is still something positive left in your life.


Dabberty I really do not understand why you think the world is laughing at the US.
Not laughing at the US, but at Trump.
Just his statements about this covid situation are unbelievable.. 
Suggesting people should drink bleach, or inject themselves with disinfectants, claiming first there is no pandemic, then later claiming he know it was a pandemic before it was named as an pandemic, then suggests to do lesser testing so the number of registered infections will not rise, saying hospitals and his advisors all tell lies, firing his inner circle at the highest rate ever, and so on, and so on, and so on.
And thats just the covid part.
Then you still have many other topics, for example claiming that global warming does not exist, all the lies he told, the disrespect to women, and so on..

Not a single president, king, queen, whoever leads the country is perfect, I know that, but.......
If someone is to lead a country, and this person has no clue about certain topics, then the least thing he/she could do is to listen to his countries experts, or if he/she thinks they are all lying look at how other countries are handling things. But Trump seems to be unable to listen to people who know more about this subject like Fauci, the medical world, environmental studies, ..., ...,

In a way he is similar as Moe it seems, he has his own mind and who ever disagrees or thinks differently he starts insulting them and/or call names  8)



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Online Moe M.

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2020, 06:17:31 AM »
@ Moe, if America keeps proclaiming to be the leader of the free world, and keeps sticking their noses in other countries businesses/politics/affairs/oil fields, then yes, other countries take also interest in your elections
And your insults keep just flowing, calling me ignorant.. keep it going, I don't mind it.
I just hope that there is still something positive left in your life.


Dabberty I really do not understand why you think the world is laughing at the US.
Not laughing at the US, but at Trump.
Just his statements about this covid situation are unbelievable.. 
Suggesting people should drink bleach, or inject themselves with disinfectants, claiming first there is no pandemic, then later claiming he know it was a pandemic before it was named as an pandemic, then suggests to do lesser testing so the number of registered infections will not rise, saying hospitals and his advisors all tell lies, firing his inner circle at the highest rate ever, and so on, and so on, and so on.
And thats just the covid part.
Then you still have many other topics, for example claiming that global warming does not exist, all the lies he told, the disrespect to women, and so on..

Not a single president, king, queen, whoever leads the country is perfect, I know that, but.......
If someone is to lead a country, and this person has no clue about certain topics, then the least thing he/she could do is to listen to his countries experts, or if he/she thinks they are all lying look at how other countries are handling things. But Trump seems to be unable to listen to people who know more about this subject like Fauci, the medical world, environmental studies, ..., ...,

In a way he is similar as Moe it seems, he has his own mind and who ever disagrees or thinks differently he starts insulting them and/or call names  8)

  Dabberty,  I don't have a clue as why you should take what I have written so seriously,  first off I didn't call anyone names,  if anything I merely suggested that there is one amongst our membership that covets a socialist ideology,  and he does which is bared out in other posts he's authored on the topic of politics.
  If you actually read my first and subsequent posts I don't believe you will find that I've called anyone a derogatory name,  I have although included a mention of the names that I and the rest of the Constitutional Conservatives in this country have been called and the ridicule that we've been subjected to by the left, and especially by those  leaders in the new radical progressive socialist Democrat party and by their uninformed and ignorant followers.
 You have pointed out (as have many misinformed Europeans) that President Trump is an inept leader and is the most corrupt president in American history,  and I'm pretty sure you believe what you say,  because that's what you've been lead to believe by socialist leaning media and by special interests with an agenda that he has interfered with.
 He was elected to office because a majority of Americans agreed with his policies and believed his campaign promises which he has made good on (unlike most other politicians on both sides of the political aisle who have not, he is not a politician and doesn't lie like one, he's a businessman and a problem solver,  he accepted the nomination and took the job, and from day one has worked his tail off to put this country back on track socially, economically, and politically, and done a better job than any other President in our history.
 I agree that he is not the most loved President in modern history,  and his policies and not in keeping with the agenda of the global socialist elite,  he doesn't support a rapid advancement in green energy or in investing billions of dollars in a technology that can't sustain itself without subsidies and greatly increased user cost,  and he doesn't believe in killing millions of good paying jobs and wrecking a big part of this nations economy just to satisfy the poitical environmentalist agenda.
 He recognizes climate change as an environmental challenge,  but he doesn't believe (and many of us here agree) that Global Warming is a totally man made occurrence but rather a cyclic thing that has been ongoing since the earth was formed which can be easily researched,  he doesn't believe (and many of us agree) that man is not going to change the future of global weather with Solar panels, windmills, and battery drive cars,  perhaps in the future when the technology is actually made workable and affordable, but not now just to put big profits into the hands of greedy scientist in the form of grants, or into the pockets of corporations pushing green energy looking to get fatter on government subsidies,  we all believe in renewable energy when the time is right and the technology more advanced, but a rapid halt in the use of fossil fuels and doing away with cow farts ain't going to do it.
 What ever your problem is with our politics or with my speaking my opinions on the same just remember, I don't insult people I don't agree with or call them names intentionally,  I tell it the way it is and if they don't agree or they feel threatened or get butt hurt because of what I say, it's their problem, I couldn't care less.
 And as far as being leader of the free world America never proclaimed itself to be,  that started with at the close of WW-2 with NATO making that remark and was renewed at the close of the cold war with the collapse of the old Soviet Union, so in essence it's not us but the rest of the world that makes that reference,  again a fact easily looked up.
 And so far as having positive things in my life,  everything in my life has been positive,  I'm not wealthy by economic standards,  but I've been rich in family, friends, home, work, and love,  I wouldn't exchange my life with anyone else in the world,  but thanks for the well wishes anyhow. 
 There's so much more to say on a lot of topics Trump related,  and the way he's handled the pandemic,  but this post is too long now,  and i don't think you have the ability to not be bias in the discussion.             
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2020, 08:01:36 AM »
Dabberty thanks for the response.  You might want to not believe everything you read about Trump.  Some of it is, of course true, but some of what you say is not.  From what I know many of the statements he is reported to have made come from liberal media who either say he said something he did not or twist something he said into something bad when it was not said in the context they report.

Fauci is a good example of what you say Trump does.  He said don't wear masks then he said wear them then they took photographs of him at a baseball game with the mask around his neck doing no good.  Now did he say all that?  I don't know I wasn't there but the media says he did.

As far as the pandemic not being one...... some experts say it is and some say it is not.  Trump says what he is told by his experts and so when the death rate from this is lower than the death rate from seasonal flu maybe it isn't quite as bad as thought.  Obama ignored the flu during his terms of office and we read that more died than this current virus has claimed at least so far.

It is a complicated world and while I respect your opinion and admire your craft abilities I think you have this one wrong, at least from the information I read and what I hear people talking about.
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Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2020, 08:11:17 AM »
In another thread the question was asked about current lack of participation on the forum and why it has fallen off.

Just an observation but the nature of responses here to Dabberty  answer that question.

Looking back through posts on different topics it seems that a few folks with pretty strong opinions representing a narrow view grounded in a regressive and curmudgeonly attitude have piled on in discussions to the point where one either agrees, acquiesces or leaves lest one is treated to the same kind of snide, demeaning responses. Responses which are described as not being what they clearly are by the way.

The general tone has not been, either here or previously from what I can tell, one of good natured banter or reasoned argument but riven with an element of hostility and anger that speaks far more of aged impotence than anything else. If this forum is the means by which some folks can vent their frustrations then it might be considered theraputic to some degree but hardly constitutes a welcoming environment.

A decade ago in Scotland I was asked by a group of new acquaintences "What the hell are you americans doing, what are you thinking?". These folks were not being argumentative but were clearly and seriously perplexed. I had no succinct answer for them. Today the question probably would not even be asked and yes, as far as I can tell many folks in other developed countries are laughing at Trump but it's more akin to gallows humor than mirth. The reason may well be that other nations do not accept the notion of a post truth world nor do they generally praise bigotry.

Things will play out as they will and it's unlikely everyone will be pleased with the direction things take. Our nation has been through periouus times before and managed to keep going. If however, we lose sight of the bigger picture then we will most certainly increase our difficulties and limit our options.

The owners of this site have the right to determine goals, participation guidelines and overall content. if increasing participation across the board is the intent a less rancorous tone might be more effective.





Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2020, 09:03:18 AM »
Dabberty thanks for the response.  You might want to not believe everything you read about Trump.  Some of it is, of course true, but some of what you say is not.  From what I know many of the statements he is reported to have made come from liberal media who either say he said something he did not or twist something he said into something bad when it was not said in the context they report.

Fauci is a good example of what you say Trump does.  He said don't wear masks then he said wear them then they took photographs of him at a baseball game with the mask around his neck doing no good.  Now did he say all that?  I don't know I wasn't there but the media says he did.

As far as the pandemic not being one...... some experts say it is and some say it is not.  Trump says what he is told by his experts and so when the death rate from this is lower than the death rate from seasonal flu maybe it isn't quite as bad as thought.  Obama ignored the flu during his terms of office and we read that more died than this current virus has claimed at least so far.

It is a complicated world and while I respect your opinion and admire your craft abilities I think you have this one wrong, at least from the information I read and what I hear people talking about.

The examples quoted in this reply are not factually correct. Not looking to pick a fight but this is a serious topic. I have a license in the medical business and have worked extensively in this area in the past.
   
The mortality (death) rate the for seasonal influenza is far less than what is currently seen with Covid19. Currently the mortality rate appears to be 2.5%. In the US, if it holds, that works out to more than 9 million deaths attributable to Covid19. The annual median mortality rate for seasonal influenza results in around 36K deaths. To date we have over 230K deaths since January and may hit 300K by December. The mortality rate with Covid19 is NOT being overstated. If anything it is the opposite.

Neither Obama, the administration at the time or the medical community ignored Influenza, seasonal or otherwise. The office managing planning and response set up by Obama was dissolved by Trump. National stockpiles were not resupplied.

The H1N1 Pandemic, 2009, (pandemic refers to the number of infected people) cannot be compared to Covid19 except in the most general and for practical purposes inaccurate manner. They are different viruses with different transmission characteristics, presentations and effects and while H1N1 Influenza responses had the advantage of previous knowledge and experience gained in Influenza strains to aid development of a safe and effective vaccine Covid19 is NOT an Influenza virus.

Dr. Fauci did indeed initially state masks were not necessary. This was based on standard Infection Control techniques very early on. As more was learned about Covid19 his advice changed as facts directed. That's how science works.

The initial lock downs were intended to prevent an outright collapse of the medical system. Some citizens didn't like them. The reasoning here is obvious and has long been a component of pandemic planning in which I have participated over decades. Viruses have the ability to change in different ways while circulating and during any pandemic (again, the number of people infected not lethality) folks will still have other serious medical problems and require care.

Covid19 is a novel (new) pathogen and while we understand a lot more now than when it was first inrtroduced to the US (our particular dominant strain was from Europe) there is still much to be learned and some important aspects will not be investigatable for a while.

These are facts. Instead of relying on anecdotal third and fourth person speculations or MSM spin it is preferable to take a look at valid sites such as the CDC's weekly MMWR.

The inanities mentioned about injecting bleach or testing driving infection rates are well documented and the evidence from relaible sources can be found on line.  Unfortunately those statements pretty much sum up non medical senior administration attitudes.


My opinion only is that we will all be exposed to Covid19 over time. At this point what we can do in terms of slowing the spread is what we need to do. Without a fully tested vaccine masks, social distancing and hygiene are what we have.


Again my opinion only, the current goal of "herd immunity" is not only uninformed but potentially disastrous and is based in old school discredited eugenics policies.


When facing somethong like Covid19 it is essential that citizens rely on fact and best evidence to make decisions. Misinformation and disinformation may serve other goals but positive outcomes for health are not among them.

Note: Citizens have differing opinions concerning MSM in the US. Regardless of where political motivations obviously influence presentations it is wise to keep in mind basicall all (radio, TV, print and visual) output is controlled by 6 corporations with interlocking BODs.This too is easily researched.







« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 09:57:35 AM by boomer »

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2020, 04:16:58 PM »
Boomer what I said, as you recognize, is that Fauci did what I said he did. 

Regarding the Obama response to the H1N1 my point is simply that he did not try to shut down the country during that time.  World wide that virus mortality rate did not approach 1% as I read and in the US most cases involved people in a younger range of ages. 

The deaths from cases of covid are stated at 2.5% of confirmed cases if, and only if, all of the deaths attributed to covid are true.  There was a lot of reporting earlier that the covid deaths on death certificates were overstated.  The CDC stated in late August that many of the deaths attributed to covid were people with 2.6 additional medical problems.  In other words they were old and not well in the first place.  The other missing part of the equation is people who get Covid, have mild symptoms, are never tested and therefore left out of the numbers. 

I visit the CDC covid data tracker frequently and also watch the geographic area we are in on another site that uses CDC data. 

WebMD is also a site I visit from time to time and here is their report on the virus with the bad news and good news and a little from Fauci.   

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200901/what-changing-death-rates-tell-us-about-covid
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline Dabberty

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2020, 04:32:08 AM »
wsdstan, my opinions came from what trump himself tweet or says in his speeches. That the media can bring things differently, yep, thats a sad but true thing.
Good luck with it all, it seems that at this moment it is still a close call without a certain winner.
My outdoor & DIY blog:  www.dabberty.com

Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2020, 06:56:33 AM »
Thank you for the reply wsdstan.

"The deaths from cases of covid are stated at 2.5% of confirmed cases if, and only if, all of the deaths attributed to covid are true.  There was a lot of reporting earlier that the covid deaths on death certificates were overstated.  The CDC stated in late August that many of the deaths attributed to covid were people with 2.6 additional medical problems.  In other words they were old and not well in the first place."
 
This part of the reply however, seems to be incorrect.

It is true that many deaths correctly attributed to Covid19 occurred in folks with pre existing conditins. The CAUSE of death however, was Covid19. Look at it this way: A elderly person with diabetes and heart problems crossing the street against the light gets hit by a bus and unfortunately dies. What is the cause of death? The answer is the impact of the bus. In some, relatively few, Covid19 cases however, it may not be as straightforward and there is necessarily some medical judgement involved. Death certificates take these kinds of things into account as do folks who fill them out and those who compile the information.

"The other missing part of the equation is people who get Covid, have mild symptoms, are never tested and therefore left out of the numbers".

This is also correct but that is not how the mortality rates are figured. The number of identified cases and subsequent deaths gives us a picture but sometmes this approach is not applicable and only indirect iformation such as excess deaths are what we have to work with. This is to be expected, especially during the early stages of a pandemic. In the case of the early 20th century Influenza epidemic we still rely on an estimated range of mortality yet understand it was both widespread and lethal.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but to claryify misconceptions circulated for other than medical purposes.

Like other travails we'll get through this eventually. In the meantime accurate information can help keep us safer. At least I hope so.

Stay well.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 07:20:18 AM by boomer »

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2020, 07:24:44 AM »
Dabberty  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 08:16:26 AM by wsdstan »
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2020, 08:29:22 AM »
Boomer we will just have to agree to disagree on some of the details.  Thanks for keeping the discussion civil. 

You did a good job of reviewing some things I was not facile with and so I learned a bit.



 

 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 08:36:46 AM by wsdstan »
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2020, 02:23:01 PM »
The OP mentioned a Sinatra song abut this being the end. If we choose we can instead make today a beginning.  Our Republic spans the continent and beyond with many different folks, ideas and concerns, As large as  our Republic is some of the immediate problems we face are larger. we can choose to remain divided, entrenched in partisan dispute or we can choose otherwise. Just as a love of the outdoors is a common interest of this site so do we share other common interests as a nation. I hope we choose wisely.

Offline wsdstan

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2020, 02:49:18 PM »
The other side isn't interested in compromise or adjusting their vision of America and most of us aren't either. 
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns  something he can learn in no other way. 
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Offline madmaxine

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2020, 04:23:04 PM »
Kinda hard to mend fences when I've been called deplorable by a presidential candidate.  Then racist, sexist, white supremacist, redneck, backwoods, no teeth trailer trash, etc. etc. etc.  And tried to make me feel guilty for being born white and male.  Blamed for slavery by people who were never slaves.  Blamed for racial injustice because I'm white and male after we have had a black man as president for 8 years.

You're ing A right I'm mad and offended,

Offline Pete Bog

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2020, 05:39:30 PM »
After reading the posts I was remembering a line from an old song too. Roy Orbison, 1961 "Running Scared".

There is time between now and December 14th when the Electoral College actually votes to elect a president. A lot can happen. There is still a lot of wiggle room for an outcome either way. There are a lot of cliches to apply here. All the eggs in one basket, counting chickens before the eggs hatch, and on and on. Before you start all the hand wringing, Look at the options, wait and see and formulate a contingency plan for your own well being. You've got a little over two months before a new president is sworn in. Don't be a chicken little and wail about the sky is falling. There was an old line from when I was in the military "Cover your six". It's time. Make a plan for the worst and hope for the best, but get your six covered.

Offline boomer

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Re: Remembering the line from an old song
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2020, 07:24:06 AM »
As old school redneck scooter trash myself, I learned long ago not to pay too much attention to name calling. Things change. Sometimes we might like the way things go sometimes not but this is still by my reckoning the best place to be these days or any day in fact. Regardless of how emotional, scared, offended folks might be today the sun will still appear in the East tomorrow.

Fortunate to travel a bit, I've crossed the Atlantic and Pacific by both ship and plane more than once and set foot in every State of our Republic and kept my knees in the breeze round the Continent a couple times as well. I've seen how people live in different parts of the world, how we're different and, more importantly, how we're the same. And we're far more alike than different. Everywhere.

I started camping as a kid and lived in a tent for months at a time then and now, led men in combat and delivered babies, built some things that I'm proud of even today and few that could have been better. In fact my story is as much mine as anyone else's is theirs.  My kids have their own, as do all our kids. As a product of my times, as each necessarily is, I was raised by bigots to be one myself but, fortunately, outgrew that nonsense with time and experience. People can learn and change. It's a choice.

The divisiveness and partisan gulf among some folks today will pass. It belongs to the past. While we should recognize the past it is important to understand how and why things developed and how they change. As another correctly noted there are still a few steps required before the next President, whomever it may be, takes office.

When some folks start talking about violent response in the "homeland" or how they "hate" this or that group, party or whatever all that is accomplished is self isolation. It's a choice. Once we had a President who advised citizens "the government is the problem not the solution". That anti democratic message still has some resonance for some but it remains anti democratic none the less and we are in fact a democratically organized Republic (demos = the people). So if we're going to argue against ourselves the outcome is pretty obvious.

A good fire still warms anyone who hunkers up to it. Food cooked with the flavor of wood smoke still tastes better and a good sleeping bag is still hard to crawl out of on a cold morning. Solo back packing in wilderness is a gift. A canvas tent can be a comfortable home and the cycles of Nature still offer solace to those willing to notice.


Enjoy what we have. Work to make things better. Help create a world we'll be proud to leave for those who follow. Those are choices. Choose wisely.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 07:31:58 AM by boomer »