Preparing for hard times

[Moe M.]

 I know that we've discussed a time or two in the past about having an emergency pantry in the event of short term shortages, power outages, or storms such as twisters, hurricanes, blizzards, or earthquakes and such,  in many parts of the country within the last year we've experienced shortages of everything from toilet paper, cleaning supplies, to food products and ammo, most of us were pretty happy that we had well stocked pantries and a closet full of house hold stuff put aside "Just In Case".
 When the pandemic hit the US we all thought ok, another flu, we'll ride it out for a month or so and it'll be over,  well here we are almost a year later and it's still affecting us,  we can't gather,  have to wear stupid masks when in public, some food, and paper goods are still spotty,  professional office waiting rooms still don't have any reading materials, and the stand hear signs are still painted on the floors in most stores and banks.
 Now many items are late making it to stores because some dumb bell parked his boat in the middle of a canal for a couple of weeks,  Yah, I know, don't sweat the small stuff,  but is anyone paying attention to the political environment the new administration is setting us up for, or how many of our civil liberties have been put on hold, how about the presidents declaration this week that the Constitution is not Absolute, just what does that mean ?
 Another question that's troubling,  our economy has been brought to it's knees because of the businesses that were closed by pandemic limitations, the loss of tens of thousands of jobs through closing of the pipe line and restrictions placed on the coal, oil, and natural gas industry, and if that's not bad enough,  the new administration has spent trillions of dollars and is planning trillions and trillions more,  where are all those dollars coming from,  what is backing it up,  funny thing is nobody knows,  I asked the manager at my local bank while making a small deposit this afternoon,  she shook her head and laughed saying,  it's not backed, it's nothing more than monopoly money printed by the Fed as needed and all that's keeping our economic system afloat is low interest rates, higher inflation (soon to go Hyper) and a big IOU with your name on it.
 She explained,  if either one of the legs on this silly stool moves the economy crashes and the dollar stops being the worlds monetary currency,  then what ?
 Pretty scary stuff,  are any one of you making any extra preparations "Just in Case" ?   

[madmaxine]

Ooooooh Yeeeeeeah.  Started years ago.  I'm working on trade goods right now.  Little things become important.  Not going to list those but...
 
 I cleaned up and reseasoned an old cast iron pot for a good friend.  Now we have a LOT of eggs.
 
They have a huge garden twice a year.  A little help with the gardening work and we always have fresh veggies.  I may have to brush up on my goat milking skill set.

Trading some 300BLK supersonic (I need subsonic) for some ham radio equipment.

Ordered new trotlines today.

Got lotsa pellets for my .22 air rifle.

Always have enough cash on hand to get through that time when nobody really gets it. 

Pretty basic prepping.

ps Oh yeah... heirloom seeds.




 

[wolfy]

Personally, it doesn't make much difference to us.  We are pretty much 'prepped' all of the time.  When you've farmed for most of your life, you tend to be in that camp out of necessity.  Just don't come knockin' at my door without proper B&B credentials or if you find yourself lacking in anything that you should have thought of since......or those essentials that you may have forgotten to include in the first place.   

PS....I WILL trade or barter. 

[wsdstan]

We have everything here on the farm to survive for a time without any big problems.  My long term worry list has a few things and one of them is inflation.  If it takes off big time then things get shaky quickly. That worries me to a great extent.  I don't want to buy a new wheelbarrow to carry cash to the grocery store. 

[randyt]

No wheelbarrow needed, just bigger numbers

[crashdive123]

We have everything here on the farm to survive for a time without any big problems.  My long term worry list has a few things and one of them is inflation.  If it takes off big time then things get shaky quickly. That worries me to a great extent.  I don't want to buy a new wheelbarrow to carry cash to the grocery store.

My Dad grew up in Germany.  The Great Depression hit there harder than most places.  I remember Dad telling me the story of him collecting pennies.  He had collected a wheelbarrow full.  He took them to the store and exchanged them for one loaf of bread. 

[Moe M.]

  The major fly buzzing around my head is that all of the scary stuff is coming from different directions and almost all at the same time,  we find ourselves in a serious health pandemic,  a political up evil, and a looming economic disaster, we are loosing our Constitutional rights in rapid fire ever since the first of the year when this weaponized Chinese Flu was released on the world and all of this country's governors and mayors with a socialist bent decided to lock down businesses and restrict our movements.
 It getting so bad that I almost forgot about the riots, burning, looting, and violence of the major cities here in our country,  "they" call them protests,  but it's becoming more apparent that they were organized and staged for the express reason of creating confusion and fear.
 Tell me,  I was under the impression that we were pretty much past systemic racism in this country,  and now within a few months it's become a political game changer, what's happened to our world ?
 This week your President stated that your Constitution and the rights that it is supposed to protect is not absolute, he changed the meaning of our language, did you know that he's going to be spending another multi trillion dollars on infrastructure,  well that's not bad, fixing our roads and bridges while putting a few million Americans back to work is a good thing,  but wait, since he and "they" changed the meaning of the word infrastructure it no longer means roads and bridges or the electric grid,  what it refers to in todays new political language is all the government agencies charged with telling us what to do,  it means all the "new" immigrants flooding our boarders,  it means infusing poorer countries with billions of dollars in Aid, it means funding abortion clinics in third world countries.
 I guess I'm getting carried away again,  so,  we're loosing our rights, we will soon loose control over our currency and our personal economic freedom,  we're loosing our rights to own property,  we are restricted in our movements, being forced to get vaccinated, we're about to be forced to have a chip implanted in our bodies,  and forced to wear a mark proving that we have been vaccinated or face being cancelled in our society,  I'm starting to think that we've all fallen into Alice's rabbit hole,  or that I fell asleep in reality and have woken up in a never ending bad dream.         

[boomer]

  The major fly buzzing around my head is that all of the scary stuff is coming from different directions and almost all at the same time,  we find ourselves in a serious health pandemic,  a political up evil, and a looming economic disaster, we are loosing our Constitutional rights in rapid fire ever since the first of the year when this weaponized Chinese Flu was released on the world and all of this country's governors and mayors with a socialist bent decided to lock down businesses and restrict our movements.
 It getting so bad that I almost forgot about the riots, burning, looting, and violence of the major cities here in our country,  "they" call them protests,  but it's becoming more apparent that they were organized and staged for the express reason of creating confusion and fear.
 Tell me,  I was under the impression that we were pretty much past systemic racism in this country,  and now within a few months it's become a political game changer, what's happened to our world ?
 This week your President stated that your Constitution and the rights that it is supposed to protect is not absolute, he changed the meaning of our language, did you know that he's going to be spending another multi trillion dollars on infrastructure,  well that's not bad, fixing our roads and bridges while putting a few million Americans back to work is a good thing,  but wait, since he and "they" changed the meaning of the word infrastructure it no longer means roads and bridges or the electric grid,  what it refers to in todays new political language is all the government agencies charged with telling us what to do,  it means all the "new" immigrants flooding our boarders,  it means infusing poorer countries with billions of dollars in Aid, it means funding abortion clinics in third world countries.
 I guess I'm getting carried away again,  so,  we're loosing our rights, we will soon loose control over our currency and our personal economic freedom,  we're loosing our rights to own property,  we are restricted in our movements, being forced to get vaccinated, we're about to be forced to have a chip implanted in our bodies,  and forced to wear a mark proving that we have been vaccinated or face being cancelled in our society,  I'm starting to think that we've all fallen into Alice's rabbit hole,  or that I fell asleep in reality and have woken up in a never ending bad dream.       

Again, the irony is almost musing but rather droll. As a litany of contradictions and aberrant "thought" it suceeds. of course, I;n just taking things at face value so maybe the jokes on me.

[boomer]

We live in interesting times. Large scale change is often upsetting and rapid change often leads to chaos. While recognizing there is a certain perspective the few remaining active participants share it's also likely helpful to consider different ideas.

Folks can recognize problems and choose to do something or they can sit on the sidelines and whine . . . and everything in between. Personally, I want to know what causes the winds before arguing about which way they're blowing. To attempt that however, requires fact not just rehashing nonsensical "talking points".

Prepping in general makes as much sense as a winter coat - much appreciated when needed. How one preps is up tp them but it just seems responsible to me. A lot of the scenarios surrounding prepping however fall more in the (poorly) made for TV category than in real life.

As an example , more the 20 years ago major multidisciplinary conferences were held discussing pandemics and epidemics.  While there were differences of opinions there was unanimous consensus that sooner rather than later we'd be hit. The factual evidence was simply impossible for reasonable people to ignore.

Similarly, more than 25 years ago my partner at the time, a physicist specializing in atmospheric chemistry, was involved in international modeling of what is now known as Climate Change. Here again, the facts were simply impossible for reasonable people to ignore.

If folks recognize the benefit of planning for winter by getting a good winter coat they might also realize the best place to get one is not a store that only sells flip flops or take advice from someone who denies winter exists. That's not preparation, that's something else altogether.

So it goes. Some folks still refuse to accept fact for whatever reason but that approach in no way extends to the point where others ae obligated to board the same sinking vessel. Each is entitled to their say as long as it goes both ways.

[hayshaker]

onething i'd stop eating store bought bread or make my own strore wheat.

[Moe M.]

   Being from the north eastern part of the country where we are used to temporary blackouts (can I still say black outs ?),  hard winter blizzards and ice storms, and seasonal hurricanes, flooding, the occasional twister, and economic down turns,  people up here (at least the older ones) have always by nature have some supplies put aside for such events.
  When I was a kid my parents and grand parents and one of my uncle's family kept a half acre victory garden every year since the big depression and before, they also kept allot of chickens for the eggs and meat, and they often raised a pig or a beef cow for butchering,  so naturally they canned heavily at harvest time and bartered some for bakery and dairy goods, so when ever money was tight or storms blew in we were never without the necessities, and from the time I was about seven yrs. old I hunted the area woods for small game to add to the pot,   my folks gladly kept me in .22RF ammo when ever I got low.
 Well today the area has built up,  there's a fair sized city not far away,  my small town and others like it haven't grown all that much in population,  but there aren't much left of open woodlands, most are posted and the entrances blocked or chained,  area lakes have become reservoirs and off limits to boating,  swimming, and fishing, and the raising of livestock in residential areas is forbidden, oh you can still have a garden, but you can't use town water to irrigate it, you have to have a well of some kind.
 Funny how things and attitudes change slowly over time, so slowly sometimes that it's not noticeable until you look back,  at one time town water was included in your property taxes, we had cesspools or septic systems for dark water, today I pay about $500.00 per quarter for water and sewer use,  yup. title five, no more septic systems or cesspools.
 No more land fill either,  for a while the town charged for trash pickup after the land fill closed, then the citizens complained about the trash collection costs,  so the town fathers listened, no more fees for trash removal, instead they raised property taxes and went back to "free" trash pick up.
 So for many of us that live in semi rural America and certainly for those who are unfortunate enough to live in the cities the growing and preserving of foods for the average family isn't as practical as it once was,  for most folks who prepare for emergencies these days that means a well stocked pantry for short term events, and a separate area for storing food and supplies for the long term.
 Many of us now who no longer grow and can surplus harvest have to get our emergency supplies from the super market, canned foods with one or more year shelf lives that can be used every day and rotated regularly, dried foods like rice, beans, and pasta,  soup bases and bullions,  and freeze dried prepared meals and sides, powdered milk and other drink mixes for variety,  while it sounds like allot it really isn't when stocked a little at a time with each regular trip to the grocery store.
 What about long term storage, this pandemic and it's year long effect on all of us especially in the beginning with paper goods, cleaning supplies, and empty food shelves have shown us that having to live through a long time event is allot more possible than most of us thought, thankfully the pandemic seems to be winding down and common house hold products and food are back on store shelves.
 But what about the next pandemic, what about a long term electric grid failure, a couple of states have been living with rolling blackouts for several years, what if it failed completely, no power means no communication long distance, manufacturing stops, orders don't get filled, trucks don't roll without fuel, refrigeration is all but shut down, it's happened before for a day or two, a week maybe, a month for some folks in the big Texas Freeze, but what if it's country wide and for a longer period of time, we find ourselves in strange times, with governments spending like drunken sailors and printing funny money to shore up failing economies, what if it all collapses, it's more possible today than it was a few scant years ago.
  How are you preparing for such an emergency, Are you preparing at all ?
           

[madmaxine]

I guess I'll go there. 
When SHTF everybody and their uncle are going to be out fishing and hunting very quickly if they have a fraction of experience.  It won't take long to deplete the wildlife.  Of course the only supply line is going to be local.  And it won't be long before some scum decide to "source" food from the farm.  No more supply line.

Seems like the best place to be is the in between.  In between the city and the country.  You might be able to hide a garden.  If you can't you will be raided.

Then there's the criminal element.  I've been saying for a while that if the gangs get organized, they will run over local law enforcement by sheer headcount.   I doubt many people realize how cold and brutal these gangs are.  Hey, Lone Wolf,  You're going to need a whole lot more armed people than just yourself to stay alive.  I don't care how many guns you have.

And the people with a condition that requires meds to live.  You're going to die.  The looters will strip the pharmacies very quickly.

And kids.  Little ones.  Anybody that has kids or have worked with kids know that's a full time job.  You're not going to fight off looters and take care of those little ones.  It makes me sick knowing what might/will happen to them. 

We learned a lot on our Pot and Machete Challenges.  While that's an extreme,  the mindset is the same.  You are  going to suffer.  Survival mode sucks.  You'll have to embrace the suck.  If you don't know what that means,  you don't have much time to figure it out.

[Mannlicher]

Sometimes we just plain over think things.  There is no way any of us can prepare for, or even contemplate every possible future crisis.
That said, I feel it prudent to keep 6 months basics within reach.  Cash, meds, means of protection, food, water (and the means to produce potable water), batteries and solar.  That sort of stuff. 
Panic and fear won?t help.  Folks in Florida particularly should be so accoutered, what with yearly hurricanes.

[Moe M.]

  Good points all.   

[boomer]

   Being from the north eastern part of the country where we are used to temporary blackouts (can I still say black outs ?),  hard winter blizzards and ice storms, and seasonal hurricanes, flooding, the occasional twister, and economic down turns,  people up here (at least the older ones) have always by nature have some supplies put aside for such events.
  When I was a kid my parents and grand parents and one of my uncle's family kept a half acre victory garden every year since the big depression and before, they also kept allot of chickens for the eggs and meat, and they often raised a pig or a beef cow for butchering,  so naturally they canned heavily at harvest time and bartered some for bakery and dairy goods, so when ever money was tight or storms blew in we were never without the necessities, and from the time I was about seven yrs. old I hunted the area woods for small game to add to the pot,   my folks gladly kept me in .22RF ammo when ever I got low.
 Well today the area has built up,  there's a fair sized city not far away,  my small town and others like it haven't grown all that much in population,  but there aren't much left of open woodlands, most are posted and the entrances blocked or chained,  area lakes have become reservoirs and off limits to boating,  swimming, and fishing, and the raising of livestock in residential areas is forbidden, oh you can still have a garden, but you can't use town water to irrigate it, you have to have a well of some kind.
 Funny how things and attitudes change slowly over time, so slowly sometimes that it's not noticeable until you look back,  at one time town water was included in your property taxes, we had cesspools or septic systems for dark water, today I pay about $500.00 per quarter for water and sewer use,  yup. title five, no more septic systems or cesspools.
 No more land fill either,  for a while the town charged for trash pickup after the land fill closed, then the citizens complained about the trash collection costs,  so the town fathers listened, no more fees for trash removal, instead they raised property taxes and went back to "free" trash pick up.
 So for many of us that live in semi rural America and certainly for those who are unfortunate enough to live in the cities the growing and preserving of foods for the average family isn't as practical as it once was,  for most folks who prepare for emergencies these days that means a well stocked pantry for short term events, and a separate area for storing food and supplies for the long term.
 Many of us now who no longer grow and can surplus harvest have to get our emergency supplies from the super market, canned foods with one or more year shelf lives that can be used every day and rotated regularly, dried foods like rice, beans, and pasta,  soup bases and bullions,  and freeze dried prepared meals and sides, powdered milk and other drink mixes for variety,  while it sounds like allot it really isn't when stocked a little at a time with each regular trip to the grocery store.
 What about long term storage, this pandemic and it's year long effect on all of us especially in the beginning with paper goods, cleaning supplies, and empty food shelves have shown us that having to live through a long time event is allot more possible than most of us thought, thankfully the pandemic seems to be winding down and common house hold products and food are back on store shelves.
 But what about the next pandemic, what about a long term electric grid failure, a couple of states have been living with rolling blackouts for several years, what if it failed completely, no power means no communication long distance, manufacturing stops, orders don't get filled, trucks don't roll without fuel, refrigeration is all but shut down, it's happened before for a day or two, a week maybe, a month for some folks in the big Texas Freeze, but what if it's country wide and for a longer period of time, we find ourselves in strange times, with governments spending like drunken sailors and printing funny money to shore up failing economies, what if it all collapses, it's more possible today than it was a few scant years ago.
  How are you preparing for such an emergency, Are you preparing at all ?
         

Well said Moe. Very well said.

[hayshaker]

anyhow my 2,cents on this.
this time we'll need a pickup bed not a wheel barrel.
hence get your wheat now and learn to bake and yeast too of course.
fats protiens starches. though food has gone crazy in price on many items.
next year many and i mean many food items may not even be available, think about that for a moment.

what we are wittnessing is the deliberate destruction of our nation
as it says in scripture we are to gird up our loins. this is real.

[Moe M.]

anyhow my 2,cents on this.
this time we'll need a pickup bed not a wheel barrel.
hence get your wheat now and learn to bake and yeast too of course.
fats protiens starches. though food has gone crazy in price on many items.
next year many and i mean many food items may not even be available, think about that for a moment.

what we are wittnessing is the deliberate destruction of our nation
as it says in scripture we are to gird up our loins. this is real.

 It is very real,  and it's very scary. 

[hayshaker]

one should not overlook cross bows. clean and quiet.

[Moe M.]

one should not overlook cross bows. clean and quiet.

  I thought about the cross bow as an option,  in my healthier days I got deep into archery,  recurve and compound bows,  the accuracy of the compound bow with a good set of sights was amazing,  my son had a full set of 3-D targets set up in the woods on his spread,  we used to shoot every weekend, I got so that I could hit a full sized standing black bear target in the vitals consistently from 70 yds. away, even in a moderate wind.
  However, my problem with counting on a bow or cross bow is sustainability, now, I'm no expert so I may be missing something and I'm open to learning,  as I see it, arrows and bolts get lost over time, I wear dentures so straightening out shafts with my teeth is not goin to work,  neither is knapping arrowheads, so I'm going to need an accurate weapon capable of taking small game at reasonable ranges and do it as quietly as possible,  and it has to use ammo that's inexpensive and compact.
  As of now I'm betting on my .22 cal. air rifles and about 12000 pellets as my last ditch protein getter,  and then I have my muzzle loaders backed up by the components needed to keep them running for a while, and if need be I have enough put by to use as trade goods.
  I don't plan on bugging out in the event of a societal collapse, I'm planning to hunker down and do our best along with our neighbors to survive as best we can,  it's scary times we live in, but many of our ancestors survived the depressions, big dust bowl, a couple of world wars and much more,  they did what they had to do to survive, as will we, and hope for the best. 

[hayshaker]

so true moe many of us here due to our age and for some exsisting medical conditions.
the so called bug out option is not a option.  as for dentures walmart 1,dollar a tube denture adhesive cream.

[Phaedrus]

I'm prepped at my regular levels.  Not too worried about inflation, things will probably level off within a year for the most part.  Obviously some inflation is required as part of the Ponzi scheme that has been the US economy for last 100 years but I doubt we'll see anything too crazy.  My primary concern is water- that's a big issue here in the Western US and will get worse time goes on and the climate continues to worsen.  No one in my area is taking it seriously at all; we're in Stage 2 water restrictions here in Bozeman but commercial properties are still watering lawns six or seven day per week as if we have all the water in the world.   It's as dry as a popcorn fart here and we're two months ahead of where we normally are with wildfires.

Seeing as I'm 52 I won't be alive for the worst of at least.

[boomer]

Agree with Phaedrus about conditions in the Western states. This has never been country for golf courses but they're all over the place because well, money. Looking at what the land was like even 100 years ago it's stunning how cavalierly folks have and are behaving. The basic arrogance might be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Prepping for the changes we can see playing out today and trying to anticipate what might be coming has become an exercise if futility. I store food, have an independent water source, off grid capabilities and the rest and it simply won't suffice. Preparing for a month, a year or even five is one thing. Preparing for decades ahead is something else. That requires large scale changes no individual or local group can handle. Groups and institutions able to possibly address our problems simply haven't and won't.

We've known for a long time what we're doing is unsustainable but it doesn't matter to most folks. So here we are.

None of this is about political dogma or parties. Nor is it about bashing science or being informed or whatever religious fantasy folks hold onto. Its simply about what world we leave to those who follow and the existential dilemma we bequeath them because of our shortsighted greed.

Its not a pretty picture and certainly not one to be proud of.  .

[hayshaker]

here's the deal politics aside it's the sun every so often the sun goes into a cooling cycle.
that said what we are looking at is a mini ice age oh say at least 40 to 70 years,
unfortunately  that is the honest truth.   it's called a grand solar minimum.
so as scripture says we need to gird up our loins and get our houses in order.

[windy]

"not a pretty picture and not one to be proud of"?  I was in my senior year in high school when the Cuban missile crisis kicked off, and I said "oh, crap!  This is it!"  I grew up with the "drop, tuck and cover" theme of imminent nuclear war, and I was pizzed off about it--the so-called "greatest generation?  We weren't calling it that, then 'cuz after they spent the first half of the '40's killing each other, they set us up to where we were sure we wouldn't live through the '60's!  My high school physics project was fabricating a radiation detector out of Mason jars and tinfoil and silk thread.  I was mapping known artesian springs and wind flow patterns from major nuke targets to find a place I might survive fallout more than a few weeks.  Stockpiling fishing line and hooks and 22 shells at age 18 to extend my life a few more months.  Wishing I'd answered every altar call I'd heard from every pulpit in town.  Wondering if there'd be a girl left, somewhere, so I could experience sex once before I died.  ALL of the best minds said there was no way somebody wouldn't push the button that would end it all, and I decided right then and there that I'd never waste another day on any "future" that projected past the current season.  College?  Forget it!  Marriage?  Never happen!
   And now I'm 76, and pretty worn out, but I'm alive.  Got a college degree, even.  Been married 54 years! And I still don't look past the next hunting season.

windy

[Moe M.]

here's the deal politics aside it's the sun every so often the sun goes into a cooling cycle.
that said what we are looking at is a mini ice age oh say at least 40 to 70 years,
unfortunately  that is the honest truth.   it's called a grand solar minimum.
so as scripture says we need to gird up our loins and get our houses in order.

  Now that's a refreshing thought.   

[Moe M.]

"not a pretty picture and not one to be proud of"?  I was in my senior year in high school when the Cuban missile crisis kicked off, and I said "oh, crap!  This is it!"  I grew up with the "drop, tuck and cover" theme of imminent nuclear war, and I was pizzed off about it--the so-called "greatest generation?  We weren't calling it that, then 'cuz after they spent the first half of the '40's killing each other, they set us up to where we were sure we wouldn't live through the '60's!  My high school physics project was fabricating a radiation detector out of Mason jars and tinfoil and silk thread.  I was mapping known artesian springs and wind flow patterns from major nuke targets to find a place I might survive fallout more than a few weeks.  Stockpiling fishing line and hooks and 22 shells at age 18 to extend my life a few more months.  Wishing I'd answered every altar call I'd heard from every pulpit in town.  Wondering if there'd be a girl left, somewhere, so I could experience sex once before I died.  ALL of the best minds said there was no way somebody wouldn't push the button that would end it all, and I decided right then and there that I'd never waste another day on any "future" that projected past the current season.  College?  Forget it!  Marriage?  Never happen!
   And now I'm 76, and pretty worn out, but I'm alive.  Got a college degree, even.  Been married 54 years! And I still don't look past the next hunting season.

windy

  And another winner.   

[boomer]

The example of the Cuban Missile Crisis was indeed a scary time. The difference between then and now is we did something substantial about it. Removing the causes belli (nukes in Turkey that started it) and eventually nuke reduction agreements and the like. Today is a different story. When we get married, establish a home, get and education to help make it all possible we're looking ahead. That's what we refuse to do today despite watching predicted events play out in real time. Hunting seasons come and go as do generations of families.  Responsible hunters work to protect hunting ranges - both game and the supporting ecology. If theres an analogy to be drawn it may lie there.

Not a climate scientist but I'm not aware of any valid research demonstrating solar cycles are cited as causing issues  to the extent of changes in our atmosphere that we track today. Could be wrong but I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary.

Our societies are organized on some basic assumptions. Some are clearly beneficial, some questionable and some obviously detrimental. It's always a balancing act. The key idea however is to act.

[Moe M.]

The example of the Cuban Missile Crisis was indeed a scary time. The difference between then and now is we did something substantial about it. Removing the causes belli (nukes in Turkey that started it) and eventually nuke reduction agreements and the like. Today is a different story. When we get married, establish a home, get and education to help make it all possible we're looking ahead. That's what we refuse to do today despite watching predicted events play out in real time. Hunting seasons come and go as do generations of families.  Responsible hunters work to protect hunting ranges - both game and the supporting ecology. If theres an analogy to be drawn it may lie there.

Not a climate scientist but I'm not aware of any valid research demonstrating solar cycles are cited as causing issues  to the extent of changes in our atmosphere that we track today. Could be wrong but I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary.

Our societies are organized on some basic assumptions. Some are clearly beneficial, some questionable and some obviously detrimental. It's always a balancing act. The key idea however is to act.

  I can certainly agree with you, sitting on your backside while your house is falling down around you is not a sound position to take,  however, acting for acting sake is not usually ever productive either.
  Being my age has certain advantages, but also can be very frustrating at times, especially if your mind is still sharp, sometimes you forget that while your mind tells you that you can do what ever your skills allow, your body is not always able to cooperate, one of the frustrating things about living long is pet peeves or little aggravations that drive you nuts at times, we all have them to one degree or another.
  One of mine is people who constantly point out the negative things about life in todays world while ignoring the good or positive things that life (especially here) has to offer,  one of the main themes they harp on about is that we have to act now before it's too late, but what they fail to do is offer a plan,  suggestions even that go past the vague,  they are great are pointing out the faults, and louder when condemning the lack of action being taken by society as a whole,  I want to hear suggestions for a viable plan and all I hear are voices screaming "The sky is falling, The sky is falling, we have to do something",  to act without a plan sounds to me a great deal like "Do something, Even if it's wrong".
  A good example is Global Warming/ Climate Change,  Global Warming was a bust, the predictions were dire, but the earths temp wasn't actually rising, so the focus changed to Climate Change,  that was provable,  weather patterns were indeed changing world wide.
  So, the solution was to alter the weather (climate Change), all we have to do "They" tell us is to throw many billions of dollars at the problem (ever wonder where it goes, they don't tell you that), stop using fossil fuel, quit eating meat, and pay huge increases in our utility bills and transportation costs, destroy that half of our economy that has to do with energy or it's use, in other words go back to the caves and stop living the lifestyle you have become accustomed to since man began walking upright, well you of course, if you aren't a member of the ruling class of elites, they get a pass, they always get a pass. 
 
  Suggestions  ?     

[wsdstan]

Well said Moe.

[boomer]

Fair enough Moe.  A simple suggestion was made in an earlier post in reply to a similar request - reducing speed limits and alternate fueling ( or driving) days for mon emergency vehicles. Nixon did it and it worked.

The real starting point however is accepting the scientific consensus regarding human contribution to climate problems. The benefit here is science is based in observable, reproducible fact. It is not all knowing or all seing it is a reliable process in understanding nature. What we do with information is another thing. IF and only if one accepts the scientific consensus is discussion possible.

No credible person, group or institution of which I'm aware is suggesting we go back to living in caves as a general solution.

We are not going to stop using petro and similar products but we must reconsider the impacts and use them differently. People will not have to give up personal transportation but our systems will be different  Power generation and usage will continue but again our systems will be different. Our buildings and land use approaches will also change. All of these potential changes are available today. Minus the direct and indirect subsides for fossil fuels, alternative options are already less expensive at every step of the manufacturing and supply stages. Just an easy example and its been that way for a while.

There a lot of designers and engineering types already working on proof of concept projects. In one part of the desert i travel there's a Walmart with 80%covered parking. Solar panels on top of the covered parking feed back into the local grid (for monitoring accuracy). I understand it paid for itself in a few years and has turned a hefty profit since. Kind of obvious when one thinks about it.

Personally, I'm excited about the possibilities in emerging solutions. Mistakes will be made as always but we learn and move on.

Of the many options open to us the only one that makes no sense and is likely suicidal is to deny reality and count on business as usual.

Denying the fire don't change the heat

[xj35s]

Does anyone have info on agenda 21? I read it somewhere and can't find it again. One thing that stood out was depopulation and climate control. EVERY storm goes to the North or South of my property.
We had some serious damage in our area within 30 miles. We got nothing, little wind and 0 accumulation. I had to detour on the way to work several times while not even knowing there was a damaging storm. Maybe I found some good land? LOL.

in the 12 years I've owned the land which was a corn field with corn stubble, it's grown up. lots of mulberry, chokecherry, apples, and blackberries. Wild grapes too as well as some concord. brain poop, sorry just spilling some thoughts.

[wsdstan]

Agenda 21 is a United Nations plan, formulated in about 1992 and reaffirmed about 2002.  It deals with a lot of what has been discussed by some in this thread regarding energy, economy, and similar activities.

Here is a link to a simple review of it:  https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/outcomedocuments/agenda21

[Moe M.]

Agenda 21 is a United Nations plan, formulated in about 1992 and reaffirmed about 2002.  It deals with a lot of what has been discussed by some in this thread regarding energy, economy, and similar activities.

Here is a link to a simple review of it:  https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/outcomedocuments/agenda21

  Thanks Stan,  I spent some time reading the Agenda 21 proposal over last night and this morning,  it's an interesting read, actually quite timely when you consider the political and economical climate we are being forced to live in today, not only in this country but across the globe.
  While it may all be chalked up to coincidence the goals and implementations described in the document established in the "90's and amended again in 2002 are uncommonly close to what's in the news and happening today, the UN's recommendations for accomplishing those goals, especially in the areas of economics, trade, balancing the worlds population, the redistribution of wealth, gender equality, and lastly diverting huge sums of money from developed nations to undeveloped and under developed nations via Climate Change subsidies,  there is much more involved such as getting  big business and international corporations to partner with government across the globe to influence economic change, redistribution of wealth, and adjust consumer buying habits in order to promote greater sustainability of food resources and insure better health.
  Other flags in the Agenda 21 document that are erie is mention of insuring and enhancing tenant protections and the settlement or resettlement of populations,  especially those from underdeveloped areas of the world in order to achieve better advancement opportunities and built better income equality,  this stuff was put out in '97 and last revised is 2002,  yet it speaks to changes being implemented today in our own country.
  Some of these changes have been ruled unconstitutional just a few weeks ago by our USSC and admitted to by the WH in a news briefing two days ago in which the president said that the court ruled that it did not pass constitutional muster, but that since the court has no enforcement arm the changes would be implemented anyway "for the good of the country",  think about that for a moment,  when has "for the public good" ever been a lawful excuse to Supercede the US Constitution ?   

[wsdstan]

Never as far as I know. 

Andrew Jackson's response after the 1832 ruling by John Marshall and the Supreme Court was about the same regarding the State of Georgia taking Cherokee land.  I have also read that the relocation of the Cherokee to Oklahoma was the reason for his reply.  His reply was similar to what the White House said about the recent ruling on resettlement etal.

"John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it.?  Those are the famous words uttered by President Andrew Jackson in relation to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall?s 1832 decision in Worcester v. Georgia to strike down a Georgia law that imposed regulations on the comings and goings of white people in Native American land." 

[Moe M.]

Never as far as I know. 

Andrew Jackson's response after the 1832 ruling by John Marshall and the Supreme Court was about the same regarding the State of Georgia taking Cherokee land.  I have also read that the relocation of the Cherokee to Oklahoma was the reason for his reply.  His reply was similar to what the White House said about the recent ruling on resettlement etal.

"John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it.?  Those are the famous words uttered by President Andrew Jackson in relation to U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall?s 1832 decision in Worcester v. Georgia to strike down a Georgia law that imposed regulations on the comings and goings of white people in Native American land."

  Good catch Stan, given Biden's propensity for plagiarizing the works and words of others it's probably a safe bet that is where he adopted the notion that he could get away with just about anything without being held responsible, there or from AL Gore's getting away with using the power of the White House for Dem fund raising activities during his term as Clinton's VP, saying "sure it's against the law, but since there's no legal enforcement authority, why not do it".
  "Rules for thee, but not for me".

[boomer]

Interesting turn in the posts. Unfortunate but entirely predictable.

It's unlikely many, if any, of the folks commenting have read the 350 pages of the UN material referenced or got much past the index even. That was certainly evident with the Affordable Care Act recent NDAA reauthorizations (only 56 no votes in the House at one point) or much, if not most, of other material frequently referenced. Not faulting folks it's just the way it is all around. Myself included.

When the ACA was presented I did read it all as part of my job at the time. There was a lot in it and there were a lot of claims about it pushed by msm and pundits that were blatantly misrepresented. My own opinions on it are not relevant but what happened then, as now, was that folks chose their "information" from sources that did nothing more that affirm existing opinions - no matter how reasonable or absurd. Just basic human nature when large groups feel impotent in the face of serious problems.

Agenda 21,like Area 51, exists. Both, however, have become convenient places to hang conspiracy stuff on so that the entertainers posing as news people can continue raking in the benjamins and advertisers can keep doing what they do. So it goes.

Take my word gor it - Bigfoot told me all about it.

[Moe M.]

Interesting turn in the posts. Unfortunate but entirely predictable.

It's unlikely many, if any, of the folks commenting have read the 350 pages of the UN material referenced or got much past the index even. That was certainly evident with the Affordable Care Act recent NDAA reauthorizations (only 56 no votes in the House at one point) or much, if not most, of other material frequently referenced. Not faulting folks it's just the way it is all around. Myself included.

When the ACA was presented I did read it all as part of my job at the time. There was a lot in it and there were a lot of claims about it pushed by msm and pundits that were blatantly misrepresented. My own opinions on it are not relevant but what happened then, as now, was that folks chose their "information" from sources that did nothing more that affirm existing opinions - no matter how reasonable or absurd. Just basic human nature when large groups feel impotent in the face of serious problems.

Agenda 21,like Area 51, exists. Both, however, have become convenient places to hang conspiracy stuff on so that the entertainers posing as news people can continue raking in the benjamins and advertisers can keep doing what they do. So it goes.

Take my word gor it - Bigfoot told me all about it.

  You are a very fortunate man indeed to have had the rare opportunity to have had an audience with a "Bigfoot", especially one that is so well schooled on the topic of world politics, for most of us Bigfoot and Area 51 are mysteries that tweak the imagination but that we know very little about except what our limited knowledge and rumors have us thinking, and to be honest, personally I hope we never learn the truth about either, the mystery surrounding either is the fun part of discussing them.
  But when it comes to the United Nations there is no mystery or fun about it, it has morphed into a self perpetuating entity that seeks to rule as the head of a one world government,  it is not a friend to freedom, and most certainly not a friend to America, so anything the UN champions in my mind is not good for the USA for a multitude of reasons which I believe is the main cause of the UN loosing favor with most Americans today.
  As far as the Affordable Care Act goes, there's no mystery there either,  and you are right that it was voted for by a majority of congress, but only because most members of congress didn't have time to read it, it was pushed through without any discussion, and without conservatives being allowed into any congressional meetings about it, many members were coerced into voting for it by threats and intimidation by the speaker and other top Obama minions, remember Speaker Pelosi's statement "If you want to know what's in it, first you have to pass it",  the ACA was a fraud perpetuated on the American people from the get go, It was meant to be the cornerstone of "Fundamentally Transforming America" into a Socialist Nation,  and it worked in part to do just that.
  But it was and still is a detriment to our system of heath care and an economic disaster for the American people both in personal expense and in federal expense as well.

  Now maybe we can get off this political kick and get back to discussing preparing for hard times.      

[boomer]

Preparing for the future, to me at least, involves an working understanding of the present. And understanding the present necessarily involves remembering  the past.

Leaving aside the UN stuff another poster raised as well as possible associations with Bigfoot there are other factors to consider.

Most prepping seems to focus on the short term of days, weeks and maybe up to six months. That's pretty straightforward. But what about the longer term of a year or two or more? What can we plan for if the temperatures make it too hot to survive outside; when current agricultural policies fail; when large numbers of people die from easily preventable diseases? Thousands of people at the border is a problem, millions of people at the border and there is no border. This is happening today. How do we prep for that?

It's a basic conceit in our nation to reduce every discussion to futility by claiming everything be considered solely in terms of monetary value. We've become so effectively conditioned to that attitude that its taken for granted yet it is only one among myriad considerations.  But even if it is as important as we're told what value do we place on the more than 600K of our fellow citizens lives cut short ny Covid?  Is my family member "worth" more than yours? Similarly, are folks fleeing for their lives from fires in California or Canada "worth" more or less than folks trying to escape hurricanes in Florida or Puerto Rico? Who sets the price? More importantly, why is there a price to begin with?

The point is that we must widen our gaze. A well stocked larder is of little benefit if one does not have or can afford basic health care, for instance. Maybe when accident or disease comes along barter will stave off  bankruptcy or death?  Will millions of folks homeless through no fault of their own just be written off in order to balance the books?

It's certainly prudent to prepare as effectively as we can for the future. But there is a point where prepping moves from defense to defeat. If it's true the best defense is a good offense the maybe the real prepping begins with a basic change in attitudes. And that as everyone should recognize is far more difficult than stocking up on freeze dried goodies.

[Moe M.]

  "A basic change in attitudes",  are you suggesting that we would be better off to stop fighting the drift into Marxism,  and embrace the Suck ?     

[Phaedrus]

Better yet, let's start fighting the drift to turn this place into Facebook.  Let's have more bushcraft and less politics.

[boomer]

  "A basic change in attitudes",  are you suggesting that we would be better off to stop fighting the drift into Marxism,  and embrace the Suck ?     

Marxism?? Thats a big leap from what has been posted and pretty much a non sequitur.

The simple reality is opportunities for bushcrafting have steadily diminished over recent decades in my area. Campfires are things of the  past unless maybe when the snows come which is more sparse and less frequent every year. Miles of  standing dead wood that used to be forests are found at every elevation right up to tree line.   Disappearing lakes and rivers reduced to a trickle all over the region have meant the demise of fish, fowl and game related activities. Irrigation from both surface and ground water has declined to the point increasingly large areas lie fallow for longer periods. We all know the story and we can all see the changes in our respective areas.

I taught my kids about camping and chasing game when they were young. It might be the only way my grandkids will get something close to those experiences will be in a museum.

Of course, some folks think that's "progress" or just they way it has to be because, well, i have no idea why. The outdoors have always been a big part of my life and still are. Im not content to sit by and watch it all destroyed. Other folks might be.

A conversation on prepping that doesn't look any farther down the road we're on than a couple of weeks or months just isn't dealing with reality. Seems there's a lot of that these days.

[Moe M.]

Better yet, let's start fighting the drift to turn this place into Facebook.  Let's have more bushcraft and less politics.

 Hey, I didn't open this ball,  and since not many are discussing anything let alone bush craft stuff, I comment where I can,  but if that's your suggestion, tell us about your latest Bush craft adventure and I'll tell us about mine.   

[Moe M.]

  "A basic change in attitudes",  are you suggesting that we would be better off to stop fighting the drift into Marxism,  and embrace the Suck ?     

Marxism?? Thats a big leap from what has been posted and pretty much a non sequitur.

The simple reality is opportunities for bushcrafting have steadily diminished over recent decades in my area. Campfires are things of the  past unless maybe when the snows come which is more sparse and less frequent every year. Miles of  standing dead wood that used to be forests are found at every elevation right up to tree line.   Disappearing lakes and rivers reduced to a trickle all over the region have meant the demise of fish, fowl and game related activities. Irrigation from both surface and ground water has declined to the point increasingly large areas lie fallow for longer periods. We all know the story and we can all see the changes in our respective areas.

I taught my kids about camping and chasing game when they were young. It might be the only way my grandkids will get something close to those experiences will be in a museum.

Of course, some folks think that's "progress" or just they way it has to be because, well, i have no idea why. The outdoors have always been a big part of my life and still are. Im not content to sit by and watch it all destroyed. Other folks might be.

A conversation on prepping that doesn't look any farther down the road we're on than a couple of weeks or months just isn't dealing with reality. Seems there's a lot of that these days.

 Yup, that's what I said, tough if you don't agree, I have a right to my opinion (for now anyway), and if you don't like what's being said think of this like watching TV,  if you don't like what's being presented on Fox News,  you can switch the channel MSMBC or any other anti-American network that tickles you leg, so if I offend you or your beliefs in some small way you have settings that allow you to ignore my posts, it's better than getting your blood pressure up.   

[Phaedrus]

Better yet, let's start fighting the drift to turn this place into Facebook.  Let's have more bushcraft and less politics.

 Hey, I didn't open this ball,  and since not many are discussing anything let alone bush craft stuff, I comment where I can,  but if that's your suggestion, tell us about your latest Bush craft adventure and I'll tell us about mine.   

There'd probably be more bushcraft posting if the political $hitposting went away.  No one wants to hang out in a bad neighborhood.  I come here to get away from that stuff and voila! it just follows like dog crap on the bottom of a shoe.

[Moe M.]

Better yet, let's start fighting the drift to turn this place into Facebook.  Let's have more bushcraft and less politics.

 Hey, I didn't open this ball,  and since not many are discussing anything let alone bush craft stuff, I comment where I can,  but if that's your suggestion, tell us about your latest Bush craft adventure and I'll tell us about mine.   

  Well my friend, I guess some of us just have different priorities, in my career of working with and studying people I've learned that there are four types of people in this world, those that cause trouble, those that ignore trouble in the hopes that it will go away or at least not find it's way to their door, then there's folks that run away and hide from trouble hoping someone else will deal with it, and lastly there's those that address it, bring it into the bright light of day so that it can't more easily be avoided, and eventually if enough people get involved, sometimes, just sometimes, the trouble is corrected.
  There's an old saying about "it's always the squeaky wheel that gets the grease".
 
  With all the troubles that we are faced with in this country, the violence in our streets, the constant assault on our individual constitutional freedoms, the open border policies of a administration trying to perpetuate a permanent power structure for themselves, and the most anti-American and corrupt government ever in our history, it's pretty hard to stay focused on making feather sticks, unless of course you're one of them ? 

[Phaedrus]

We all have opinions but we also have rules.  Probably for a good reason.

[Moe M.]

Better yet, let's start fighting the drift to turn this place into Facebook.  Let's have more bushcraft and less politics.

 Hey, I didn't open this ball,  and since not many are discussing anything let alone bush craft stuff, I comment where I can,  but if that's your suggestion, tell us about your latest Bush craft adventure and I'll tell us about mine.   

There'd probably be more bushcraft posting if the political $hitposting went away.  No one wants to hang out in a bad neighborhood.  I come here to get away from that stuff and voila! it just follows like dog crap on the bottom of a shoe.

  You have a good point, I guess it is pretty hard to run away and hide, or stick your head in the sand and and pretend you aren't there when the smell of dog $chitt is constantly following your every move. 
 

[Moe M.]

We all have opinions but we also have rules.  Probably for a good reason.

 These are strange times we live in, sometimes when the times change as drastically as they have the rules sometimes have to be amended to meet the changes.

 ** Me, I said that.   

[boomer]

Interesting observations

It's likely I've missed some things since i don't watch tv, not since 1964 anyway. So there's that. References to what I personally see and experience in traveling my part of the country have nothing to do with msm. Nor do i rely on tv "personalities" to provide spins on peer reviewed scientific information.

Recent post by me on this thread have contained NO political claims, observations, advice, opinions or any of myriad remarks that are basic staples of some other posts. Even cursory reading of previous posts reveal no mention of " open borders, Marxism, assaults on our Constitution" or similar ideas. iF its somehow considered "political" to simply accurately report what i observe in the field or mention the state of peer reviewed scientific evidence then apparently i don't understand the term; at least as it is used here.

In  my part of the Southwest it often hits 90 to 100 F in summer months. Thats what, in part, creates our rainy season and sustains the desert at every elevation. Sure it's hot for a while but that's  the cycle. I don't have AC and when it hit 98 or 100 F ill fire up a box fan.

The point of which is when we're talking about general rise in temps of 1.5 to 2 C we're talking about an increase in temperatures that are pushing close to 36 ( 35 to 36 degrees but close enough to make the point).  The difference is while 100F is hot, even for those accustomed to it, 136F is something else altogether. Its just basic physiology to understand most mammals, including humans, are not going to do well in that heat. As a matter of fact most mammals and reptiles will not do well. When our core temp hits 106F we're in trouble. When our core temp hits 136 we're long dead.

At 136F ot 140 or whatever it doesn't matter what a particular view on politics is, which talking points you rely on to frame a view of the world or any of the rest of what some folks consider overwhelmingly important ortan Death makes no distinction. Of course, I'll move somewhere else before things go that far becoming a climate refugee like millions already are today. But I'll ask why?

Why didn't we accept the consequences of our actions when we had the chance? Why did we deny evidence right before our eyes? Why did we refuse to accept valid scientific research even if inconvenient or requiring sacrifice of lifestyles to which we feel entitled?

Some folks don't or can't face what is already happening. When resorting to labeling and name calling or trying to close the door on discussion because they're threatened by reality in some way that's understandable. Not condoning it but it's understandable. I don't fault them or hold them in contempt. i also don't bend to their views. In an earlier post I mentioned how bushcraft and outdoor activities have been curtailed. That's just reality

 I've never met a Colorado Spruce, alive or dead, that was a Marxist or complained about "open borders" and the like. Never caught a trout that complained about "assaults on the Constitution" or heard an elk bugle about political malfeasance. Could have missed it though.

Maybe i should start watching tv?

[madmaxine]

I hit a coupla grocery stores to replace the used stock in the pantry.
Ordered  more heirloom seeds because mine were a little old.
Drew up plans for a reasonably efficient toilet here in town if the clean water stops.
We're good up at the cabin.
Need to get more solar cells for a little power.  It's amazing how a little thing like that makes a huge difference in moral.