Friction Fire Fellowship

[Old Philosopher]

PW's got it right. The dust comes from both much like the bow & hand drills.

Well, give it a go your way. I've seen a couple vids where the pump drill is made from all natural materials. I'll eventually give it a try myself, but I don't think I could have pulled it off without experience making and using the man-made pump drills first. Finding a straight enough spindle and good counter-weight materials will add to the challenge. Even better if you can use natural cordage too. Good luck!

Thanks! Just so no one is disappointed, I'm going to cheat in one regard and use jute/sisal twine. I'm having enough trouble finding the time to put this together in the first place, and I figure the jute twine is the closest thing I can get to "natural cordage" without digging up roots and chewing them into submission, or braiding nettle bark. 

[LetsRock]

Since RBM & I live in Florida and don't live too far away, we recently scheduled a meeting and compared notes on some of our bushcrafting skills, mostly relating to friction fire making. It was an excellent meeting. I learned a lot from him. It was cool to see different knowledge and skills from someone else. He knows his stuff. We met in a wooded area he was familiar with and there was a huge variety of materials to choose from. I finally got to see where Yucca & Willow are abundant. I'm used to just seeing Oak, Pine, & Palm most of the time.

He knew where all the different species were located (which saved a lotta time) and we selected materials to practice with. We found a shaded spot and I got a crash-course on the proper way to make natural cordage with Yucca (as opposed to my crude twist & go approach, ha ha). Yucca's wonderful stuff for cordage. I can see why everyone likes it. I learned I was splicing the fibers wrong all this time. No wonder I was so frustrated with making natural cordage (with splices). Especially, for a bow string.

We each had good bow drill successes using the freshly found materials collected earlier; Mainly Yucca & Willow as I had little experience with them. We also had numerous failures as well. It was expected, as it was very hot & humid out. We did eventually resort to using paracord after wearing out the Yucca bowstrings. Mainly, to save time (not have to twist up new cordage).

A great meeting. I highly recommend meeting with other folks who don't live too far away who share similar common interests. You might think you know a lot about something til you meet with someone who also knows a lot and shares his knowledge & skills with you. Even better when you find out you've been doing it wrong and didn't really know it, ha ha.

[madmax]

Awesome.  Very cool to get together and share.  And if you picked up so much...I wanna meet this guy!  lol

[RBM]

Jeff is a great guy. I also learned better ways of cord management on the firebow from him and different techniques. Just have to get used to doing it another way and that will take some time. I had too thick baseboards most of the time and knew better. We have had some rain in this area over a few days before Jeff and I went out so there is a good bet that the wood was on the damp side and add humidity to that so struggles were to be expected. The other alternative was to dig deep down to much drier wood but that would have taken a good while. When trying to make and use friction sets and natural cords on the fly from scratch it can be a struggle but other times it can work first time especially when the weather is dry. Much harder than sets already made waiting to be used. The Seminoles did it the right way, making and collecting their sets, and then taking them to their lodges and proper drying before using. We always talk about preparation. Ideally materials including tinder and kindling should be collected dry before foul weather and kept dry so there are less problems.

Jeff got to eat some palmetto cabbage, asking me about its calories. Well, probably not much but way better than nothing if you have an empty belly. Eat it raw or cooked. Most of the berries here I think have gone out of season. Kind of waiting on the local Muscadine grapes to put out right now. Too bad I didn't take the time to get into some Greenbriar. Fresh young Greenbriar tips are pretty good. A lot can be done for survival with just pine and palmetto. Shelter, tinder, fire, containers, cordage, and food. That is a lot. So getting stuck in the pine barrens is not so bad. It happens to be were most folks end up camping anyway. The drawback "can" be lack of water in pine barren areas. Plant food to me is a way of putting something in my belly until traps and snares pay off. I look forward to another excursion with Jeff. Maybe next time baskets, edibles, practicing traps, primitive fishing, or something along those lines.

[PetrifiedWood]

Sounds like a great get together! It's awesome that you guys got to share some techniques and both of you come away better for the the experience.

[LetsRock]

Jeff is a great guy. I also learned better ways of cord management on the firebow from him and different techniques. Just have to get used to doing it another way and that will take some time. I had too thick baseboards most of the time and knew better. We have had some rain in this area over a few days before Jeff and I went out so there is a good bet that the wood was on the damp side and add humidity to that so struggles were to be expected. The other alternative was to dig deep down to much drier wood but that would have taken a good while. When trying to make and use friction sets and natural cords on the fly from scratch it can be a struggle but other times it can work first time especially when the weather is dry. Much harder than sets already made waiting to be used. The Seminoles did it the right way, making and collecting their sets, and then taking them to their lodges and proper drying before using. We always talk about preparation. Ideally materials including tinder and kindling should be collected dry before foul weather and kept dry so there are less problems.

Jeff got to eat some palmetto cabbage, asking me about its calories. Well, probably not much but way better than nothing if you have an empty belly. Eat it raw or cooked. Most of the berries here I think have gone out of season. Kind of waiting on the local Muscadine grapes to put out right now. Too bad I didn't take the time to get into some Greenbriar. Fresh young Greenbriar tips are pretty good. A lot can be done for survival with just pine and palmetto. Shelter, tinder, fire, containers, cordage, and food. That is a lot. So getting stuck in the pine barrens is not so bad. It happens to be were most folks end up camping anyway. The drawback "can" be lack of water in pine barren areas. Plant food to me is a way of putting something in my belly until traps and snares pay off. I look forward to another excursion with Jeff. Maybe next time baskets, edibles, practicing traps, primitive fishing, or something along those lines.

Yeah, we'll have to connect again and focus more on the other important bushcraft skills as well.

The more I practice friction fire-making with fresh from scratch materials the more I think the Native Indians and other indigenous peoples over the ages had to be smart enough to make sure they didn't have to do that too often (ie. pre-made sets, coal-extenders, continuous fires, etc...). Just as we make sure we always have a lighter or matches when we go into the woods, the Indians must have also ensured they had a reliable means to make fire with them as well. Especially, in inclement weather.

[greyhound352]

Next time I would like to also attend if not busy. Glad to hear you both got out.

[Old Philosopher]

...The more I practice friction fire-making with fresh from scratch materials the more I think the Native Indians and other indigenous peoples over the ages had to be smart enough to make sure they didn't have to do that too often (ie. pre-made sets, coal-extenders, continuous fires, etc...). Just as we make sure we always have a lighter or matches when we go into the woods, the Indians must have also ensured they had a reliable means to make fire with them as well. Especially, in inclement weather.

IIRC, when they found the "Ice Man" (can't remember the name they gave him), didn't he have a fire kit with him, as well as a tinder supply? I think I saw a picture of it somewhere on the 'net.

[RBM]

You know I volunteered to the local scout troop leader here but guess what? He has the aid of the local Seminole tribe here that make my skills look puny by comparison. But he knows he can use me if needed and I did volunteer to help if needed. I am glad that this local troop is indeed well versed in primitive bushcraft skills where so many other troops are not. Leadership can make or break a scout troop. I know as I did not have that in my troop when younger. They either follow Powell or they don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baden-Powell,_1st_Baron_Baden-Powell

[RBM]

IIRC, when they found the "Ice Man" (can't remember the name they gave him), didn't he have a fire kit with him, as well as a tinder supply? I think I saw a picture of it somewhere on the 'net.

The other was a type of tinder fungus, included with part of what appeared to be a complex firestarting kit. The kit featured pieces of over a dozen different plants, in addition to flint and pyrite for creating sparks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman

[LetsRock]

Nah no, I got it! Ya'll relax. I'll make fire the hard way, ha ha. 

Bow Drill Fire - All natural materials (including bowstring). Fresh, On-The-Spot Laurel Oak with Palmetto bowstring. Oddly enough, I used Pine to break down the Palmetto fibers (hammer & anvil method). Took just under 2 hours from foraging to flame.

[RBM]

Fresh, On-The-Spot Laurel Oak with Palmetto bowstring.

Well, you are another one up on me as I have not done palm stems and I have never gotten oak to work especially with a plant fiber cord. Oak is some kind of hard wood.

[LetsRock]

The key is to use the branches. Same for Water Oak, Live Oak, and Hickory. They seem to be a little more sensitive to humidity, though. Compared to Longleaf Yellow Pine, for instance.

[dog.breath]

Hi everybody.  Afraid I haven't been around much, lately, just lurking now & again, but saw this thread & thought it was pretty cool.

These are some pics from a couple years ago, using yucca bow-drill tools & shredded juniper bark tinder.



And here's a video from earlier this year using a yucca hand drill:


Cheers,
Patrick

[PetrifiedWood]

Looks good, you're in!

[dog.breath]

Thanks, PW!

[madmax]

Let'sRock,  do you have a vid out on making the palmetto cordage?  Looks alot skinnyer than the sabal palm cordage you did last year at Pott's or Kicco (can't remember which).

[LetsRock]

Yup! A few videos back I showed how I made the cordage. The 1st half gets into the making of the cordage.

[PetrifiedWood]

I want to thank you guys for making this thread such an awesome learning experience! There is so much good information here. I had hoped we'd get a few tips and tricks here and there but all the knowledge and experience you guys bring to the table has really exceeded my expectations. Really, truly thank you!

[Old Philosopher]

Hear! Hear! +1!

[madmax]

Let'sRock is the Kracaneuner Friction Fire Master.  Hands down.  Props to the king.

[LetsRock]

Thanks for the props, but this is one skill where it's easy to get over-confident one minute then completely humbled the next. Lotsa practice and some tricks-to-the-trade can help keep a good success rate (and a level head). When I was editing my last video, I wanted to include all the failed attempts and still keep the video length reasonably short (tough to do). It can be very misleading when all the 2 minute videos we see out there only show the successful attempt (usually making it seem like it was the first and only attempt) yet not show the 10 failed attempts beforehand. Realistically, it's rare for me to find materials, fashion the set, and get success the first time out. Usually it's after several attempts to work out the bugs before finally getting a coal. Then there's the mistake factor or chances of something going wrong. I often have butterfingers where I was successful getting the ember, but somehow mess up getting it into the tinder bundle (like dropping the ember on the ground).

Yesterday, I went out and tried with on-the-spot Sabal Palm & Palmetto bowstring. I've been successful with Sabal Palm many times before, but I'm still trying to factor working in high-humidity into my technique. It works great when I take it home and let it dry first, ha ha. Also, the Saw Palmetto I used was more woody and I had a tougher time making it into cordage for the bowstring. I tried another frond stem and it was a little better. Surprisingly, it still worked, but it looked like a rats nest when I was using it, ha ha. I had to use a little more finesse to keep the smooth action. It held up better than I expected, though despite how it looked.

I found a different type of Pine tree. Normally, I'm only surrounded by Longleaf Yellow Pine, but this Pine was a shortleaf. Not sure which species. Perhaps, Sand Pine or Slash Pine. Surprisingly, it worked very well as I've not had good success with other types of Pine trees in the past. My Palmetto bowstring finally broke so I used paracord. It was about as easy as using Yellow Pine. I'll revisit the area again and learn more.

Believe it or not, I often chalk this up to exercise. I need a good reason to get my butt off the computer chair; Get outside, get some fresh air, and sunshine, ha ha. What do they recommend? 30 minutes to an hour a day of some sort of physical activity. So, when I don't feel like getting all dirty & sweaty I'll ask myself if I got in my daily physical activity today. So, I try to plan it into my daily routine somehow. So, anybody else who suffers from Sedentary Rationalization Syndrome (SRS) like me needs to get out there and learn this skill, ha ha. So, even if you don't get success you still got exercise, ha ha.

[madmax]

LOL.  Friction fire making is an aerobic activity. puff puff.  c'mon you...baaaah! puff puff

[madmax]

BTW I'm putting paracord in my boots for laces for the pot and machete challenge.  I'm not real great with friction fire...I'm worse with nat. cordage.  Ha ha!

[LetsRock]

I forgot to mention, I ride a mountain bike to the wooded areas I practice in. So, that adds to the aerobic activity. Although, when things aren't going right with the bow drill it's easy to get so focused and determined (zoned in) you decide to brute-force it to get success. You'll be amazed how much aerobic activity you get when this happens, ha ha.

Glad you mentioned paracord. I wasn't planning on carrying it. If we get to use paracord, the success rate for fire goes up dramatically.

[madmax]

Well, I would say no to just carrying it coiled.  But as shoe laces it's not "loading" the kit.  Frankly, I'm trying to figure fishing in too.  Gutted paracord is "can do" for line.  I've got to practice self-made onsite hooks.  Not an easy task.  I also thought about a small net from palm.  Kinda like one of those cheapo crab nets that's just a square.  You bait, wait, and yank it up. 

[greyhound352]

I

Well, I would say no to just carrying it coiled.  But as shoe laces it's not "loading" the kit.  Frankly, I'm trying to figure fishing in too.  Gutted paracord is "can do" for line.  I've got to practice self-made onsite hooks.  Not an easy task.  I also thought about a small net from palm.  Kinda like one of those cheapo crab nets that's just a square.  You bait, wait, and yank it up. 

If we get lucky maybe we can find a hook on site. Back in February where my hammock was there was a hook in the tree with some fishing line on it.

[madmax]

I'm in the no scavenging camp.  We could easily find some tackle on 10 miles of river.  But the game is "run watcha brung" for me.

[Old Philosopher]

Well, I would say no to just carrying it coiled.  But as shoe laces it's not "loading" the kit.  Frankly, I'm trying to figure fishing in too.  Gutted paracord is "can do" for line.  I've got to practice self-made onsite hooks.  Not an easy task.  I also thought about a small net from palm.  Kinda like one of those cheapo crab nets that's just a square.  You bait, wait, and yank it up.

Strands from paracord will work for a simple gorge hook. Not sure what's naturally available in your area, but the N.A. in the PNW used nettle bark for salmon fishing lines, and making nets. Strong stuff.

[madmax]

The cordage isn't easy but within our skill sets.  It's the hooks.  There's alot of very small brim (panfish like bluegill) that are ubiquitous.  teeny hooks...

[Old Philosopher]

The cordage isn't easy but within our skill sets.  It's the hooks.  There's alot of very small brim (panfish like bluegill) that are ubiquitous.  teeny hooks...

That's the beauty of the gorge hook. You can make them so tiny it's a challenge to tie a line to them. Bone slivers, thorns, carved nut shell...anything strong enough to stay wedged in their throats without breaking when you haul 'em in.
The real challenge is getting them unhooked without dissecting them.

[RBM]

Okay. After spending a good portion of the morning at the extension office and the county agent, the plant I have been calling Caesarweed/Velvetleaf is not that but it is a Mallow family member as I originally knew it was. But it is called......Heartle af Sida (Sida cordifolia). So Jeff, you have Heartleaf Sida. Excellent friction wood like all Mallows. Side note it is used medicinally and contains Ephedra (stimulant, appetite suppressant).

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=SICO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sida_cordifolia

Also (Jeff) what I was calling Torpedo Grass (different long slender shoots and leaves) is actually Cogon Grass (Imperata cylindrica). Big problem for folks trying to control it.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=IMCY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperata_cylindrica

[madmax]

The cordage isn't easy but within our skill sets.  It's the hooks.  There's alot of very small brim (panfish like bluegill) that are ubiquitous.  teeny hooks...

That's the beauty of the gorge hook. You can make them so tiny it's a challenge to tie a line to them. Bone slivers, thorns, carved nut shell...anything strong enough to stay wedged in their throats without breaking when you haul 'em in.
The real challenge is getting them unhooked without dissecting them.

I eat the whole damn thing OP.  The hook is the least of my worries as far as eating.  Gorge hooks aren't as easy as they appear.  We'll put this all to a test this winter.

[LetsRock]

Thanks RBM. I'll see how my Sida's drying out and give it a go as a hand drill.

[RBM]

Hey, Jeff. Since you have gotten coals with dead Cabbage Palm stems, have you tried dead Palmetto stems on the firebow? If that doesn't work out you can still use small piece of dead palmetto stem for a fishing cork or bobber.

[LetsRock]

I've not really tried Palmetto stems as a fireboard or spindle. They tend to be on the thin and flimsy side. I wouldn't have guessed it'd make for a good fishing bobber. Thanks for the tip. The Cabbage Palm works well, but can be tricky sometimes if you can't find it in a good state of decay or when it's humid out.

[SwampHanger]

Well I never tried this before and have more to learn. This stick I started out with is Pignut Hickory. But I do think its not dry enough. I did get a nice pile of dust and smoke but no ember. And todays humidity probably doesnt help either? Tell me if you see some thing wrong please.

[RBM]

Well I never tried this before and have more to learn. This stick I started out with is Pignut Hickory. But I do think its not dry enough. I did get a nice pile of dust and smoke but no ember. And todays humidity probably doesnt help either? Tell me if you see some thing wrong please.

Well if this is your first time it probably is not a good idea to use hickory as friction wood. Hickory is a hardwood. A medium or softwood would be better. For the bow and socket hickory is great though. Good way to tell if a wood can work well for a friction wood is to use the fingernail or etch test. If the wood is too hard it won't etch, rotten and pushes in, but if it etches then its usually good. Sometimes though wood that etches may still have some sap or sap elements in it that will make it harder or even prevent friction. General rule of thumb is dead standing dry wood that is sap free.

We have scrub hickory here and it is some VERY hard stuff. The nut meat is edible and good though.

[SwampHanger]

Thanks man! I wasn't gonna let it beat me so I figured my arms were gonna look like Popeyes'

[RBM]

Thanks man! I wasn't gonna let it beat me so I figured my arms were gonna look like Popeyes'

Not saying you can't get a coal with hickory, just if its your first time then you will more than likely wear yourself out on that hard wood. Typically softer wood is better.

Wood density does make a difference. Even when using the same wood. Stages of decomposition change the wood density always in the direction of softening the wood.

Get some medium or softwood that's dry and sap free so it doesn't wear you out. Try Willow and Yucca if possible. Maple is alright but it tends to be a little on the hard side of medium. Stay away from very resinous or sappy wood like Pine for now until later when you can pick out or distinguish "seasoned" wood that is dry and sap free (even then its hit or miss with Pine). That is the best advice I can give right now. Stay with it and you will get it.

[LetsRock]

Yesterday it rained most of the day. Today I figured I'd see how possible a friction fire would be (for the experience). I tried both bow drill & hand drill using only freshly found all natural materials. No success with the bow drill (using Palmetto bowstring). The wood was too damp no matter what I tried (various attempts with Sabal Palm & Pine). Surprisingly, I was successful with the hand drill. Kind of a shock really. Anyway, here's the vid:

[RBM]

Great job, Pat and Jeff.

Spun up a coal today using the Heartleaf Sida on itself. The same stalk I cut Thursday and took to the county office. I painted the ends of the stalk with some fingernail polish (although pine resin/sap would also work) I use for fly tying to keep it from checking. It does have a tendency to split pretty bad as it dries. It dries out pretty quick. Maybe during one full day. Two at the most.

[RBM]

Tried to spin up a coal yesterday using dead grapevine (root) board and dog fennel spindle. I have done this in the past. But it is a royal pain. The grapevine is really soft and the spindle end tends to want to wander really bad kind of like if your board is a little on the punky side. The wood being really soft is weak. So the burn hole will expand in the direction of spindle angle to one side of the board causing the spindle to pop out usually on the weak side where the notch is. Anyway it will work if everything goes right. A wide grapevine and as freshly dead and dry as possible is the best bet so it will be stronger on the notch side. It is really critical that the spindle be kept straight also. Since the wood is so soft not much pressure need be applied.

I managed to get a slight cut on the left forefinger as I got angry with the spindle continuously breaking the board and popping out of the board I was using. I usually don't loose my cool but this particular combo can be a big time pain. I am very careful with my knife but anger makes me more determined but also causes me to be less mindful. If you get upset, stop and cool down (both anger and body) before going back at it.

[madmax]

WOW Jeff.  Great work.  RBM, never even thought of trying grapevine root.  Very interesting.  I'm so impressed with you guys grinding coals here in FL right now in between thundershowers. 

[LetsRock]

Excellent efforts, RBM. I haven't had any luck with one of the Heartleaf Sida samples you found for me as a hand drill. When I was pulling off the stems I accidentally ripped off parts of the stalk so there's gouges on the sides of the spindle. Brutal on the hands. I'll have to convert it to a bow drill spindle and try again. I haven't tried the other samples yet. I've been on a 'on-the-spot' kick lately. I'll have to keep my eye out for some dead grapevine to try.

Oh yes. Friction fire-making is a true test of patience for sure, ha ha.



Thanks madmax, Guess what? It's raining, again. 50% chance every day lately and expected to be for the next week or so as well. Gotta take advantage of this potential dirt-time, ha ha.

[RBM]

Guess what? It's raining, again. 50% chance every day lately and expected to be for the next week or so as well.

Same here. I did collect some Horseweed during meal-time today. I was surprised that I found a dry woody stalk. Most of them are still green. So I got a firebow spindle and a small hand drill spindle (thinking about a thumb cord for it) from the one stalk. The Horseweed works on a lot of different softwoods. Horseweed smoke doesn't smell very good though.

Yeah, I'm just burning up way to much energy on the Horseweed hand drill even with the thumb cord assist. Every time I attempt the hand drill it has a way of quickly reminding me that the efficiency of the firebow is better at conserving energy.

[LetsRock]

The bow drill (firebow) can be better at conserving energy because of its mechanical advantage. It also has more room for error (more flexible). Meaning, one can get success with a wider variety of materials, poor set preparation, poor technique, and in more possible attempts. With the hand drill, one can learn the nuances of friction fire-making because it has less room for error. Meaning, it needs more ideal materials (less variety), good set prep, good technique, and in fewer possible attempts (blisters on the hands). This can make one a better and more efficient friction fire-maker using either method.

[SwampHanger]

Thanks for sharing your experiences guys! I'm gonna get this but I must say I thought it would be easy.

[RBM]

I'm gonna get this but I must say I thought it would be easy.

It may get better but it is never easy. A lot of folks think its easy.......until they do it. There are those that also do it once and get lucky then say its easy but they don't practice it so they are consistent with it so when it comes to crunch time and they need it, they may be in for a rude awakening. Even being consistent through practice still does not make it a sure thing but it sure does help make it better by increasing the odds for success through experience.

[MnSportsman]

It is likely that I am gonna "tick off" some folks... But that is not my intention.



I would invite anyone to look at the last 20-30 posts in this thread.


The info being passed is great!


Part of it deals with a particular part of the country.



Only thing that I am bummed about is... No new folks posting anything..
??


Some folks have said they will post up something.. But they are busy.
Some folks think( and "say".)... "Been there, Done that.".. Why waste the time...
Some folks, like me, just haven't felt like doing this stuff again, till I feel like it.



But... No "new" folks showing their stuff...



I appreciate everything I read here, in this topic, & in this forum...



It'd sure be "Right Nice", to see some folks posting up their attempts for FF. Be it a fail or a success...



Friction Fire has been getting done for thousands of years, in a lot of places, with a lot of different methods & means....


It'd be nice to see some other folks show what they are doin & what they use.



Ya'll don't mind me sayin',what I am thinkin',  do ya?