Friction Fire Fellowship

[TwinBlade]

It is likely that I am gonna "tick off" some folks... But that is not my intention.



I would invite anyone to look at the last 20-30 posts in this thread.


The info being passed is great!


Part of it deals with a particular part of the country.



Only thing that I am bummed about is... No new folks posting anything..
??


Some folks have said they will post up something.. But they are busy.
Some folks think( and "say".)... "Been there, Done that.".. Why waste the time...
Some folks, like me, just haven't felt like doing this stuff again, till I feel like it.



But... No "new" folks showing their stuff...



I appreciate everything I read here, in this topic, & in this forum...



It'd sure be "Right Nice", to see some folks posting up their attempts for FF. Be it a fail or a success...



Friction Fire has been getting done for thousands of years, in a lot of places, with a lot of different methods & means....


It'd be nice to see some other folks show what they are doin & what they use.



Ya'll don't mind me sayin',what I am thinkin',  do ya?

I reckon I'll get around to figuring it out one of these days.....

[MnSportsman]

I'll be watchin & waitin..

[TwinBlade]

Ok bro, you have asked a lot about this that and the other thing, but what I want to address is all this cordage. I don't care if you are Mykel Hawke using a shoelace or some Southern Rebel () that needs to use a yucca plant to make cordage out of, lets get back on track, that friction is a world wide method, and this topic has swayed from it's original content, that being "friction"

Now, as a noob, never having produced a fire from friction, start to finish, I am losing some information in the "FFF" here.

Seems to me, the focus needs to be on the mechanics of friction as opposed to the cordage indigenous to the area you are in. That is what I see lately, cordage talk to dominate the discussion. After all, friction fire CAN be made, for example, with hand drills. fire plough, etc without cordage, right?....

And for what it is worth, is not friction also steel against flint? Velocity in this instance, will produce a spark, correct?I could shear a small segment of that rock at a slower pace, and produce nothing close to a spark.

Just saying, friction had many avenues, and it seems this thread has gotten localized on an area of discussion as opposed to a skill.

[PetrifiedWood]

Flint and steel produces sparks by pyrophoricity. The flint cuts tiny pieces off the steel that are small enough to ignite by reacting with oxygen in the air.

[TwinBlade]

Flint and steel produces sparks by pyrophoricity. The flint cuts tiny pieces off the steel that are small enough to ignite by reacting with oxygen in the air.

I'll buy that. I guess as a northerner, I am losing a lot of aspects to this thread because the focus seems to be in a couple areas of the USA. NOT saying that is a bad thing, I am just going to have to dive a lot further back to find what is useful to my neck of the woods.

I don't really know how to convey what I am saying in actual words, but it seems the conversation in here is between two people. That isn't the case but as a guy who has no clue how to do this, and who is having an open mind to the while thread to learn, it sounds like a couple of people talking in a subway station amongst themselves if that makes a lick of sense.

I will dive in further and try to extrapolate what I can.

[MnSportsman]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pyrophoricity


 If ya like, you can click on the link, but there are two meanings for "pyrophoricity". One is spontaneous ignition & the other is by friction. There are 2 sets of definitions on that page & both collaborate each other & use the striking or scraping to make sparks as part of the definitions provided


The colliding & friction between the stone & the steel creates the hot spark(s). That collision is "friction", regardless of how long it lasts. There is no "spontaneous" ignition with the F&S.
 
I won't go into the definitions of "friction", or " spontaneous", but they are there to look at also, if someone desired to seek them out, to verify their meanings.


Just wanted to clear that up a bit... or maybe try to do so.. not sure if I helped.. LOL
 


Anyway, anyone gonna show us some more fire by friction?


I may have to go get those set-ups I saved back out, since my hand is getting better. Do this all over again, maybe.. Might show a few other methods, like the double hole, or the split stick. Unless someone else wants to do it. I am all for letting someone else with a better camera/vidcam fire something up, pun intended. Mine are POS.
 








 

[PetrifiedWood]

If that definition is incorrect in saying the ignition is spontaneous, then the rest of the definition can't be trusted to be correct either.

I like to go with Webster dictionary definition. I've been using a Webster dictionary since before the internet.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pyrophoric

1
: igniting spontaneously
2
: emitting sparks when scratched or struck especially with steel

No mention of spontaneous there. Or friction, for that matter.

[knifeguy]

I'm working on this FF thing. When I can. I'm using an ironwood spindle, an oak socket (looks like red oak) and tried various hearth board woods in varying conditions of decay and moisture saturation.

So far I've gotten better results out of tulip poplar as a hearth. I've found that a blunt point on my ,roughly 0.70" diameter, spindle works better. Hope that helps someone.

knifeguy
Expert Hilljack

[MnSportsman]

If that definition is incorrect in saying the ignition is spontaneous, then the rest of the definition can't be trusted to be correct either.

I like to go with Webster dictionary definition. I've been using a Webster dictionary since before the internet.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pyrophoric

1
: igniting spontaneously
2
: emitting sparks when scratched or struck especially with steel

No mention of spontaneous there. Or friction, for that matter.

Scratched or struck is friction, as far as I am concerned. The way I understood both the links' definitions of the word; they are using a Chemical (spontaneous), & the General Physics (scratching/striking) means of defining the word.


No need to go further with this type of discussion, P.W., as far as I am concerned. We have different points of view it seems on defining "pyrophoric" & "friction". I am all for sticking to the way you started this topic & going in that direction, rather than getting stuck in any semantics. ( < I think that is the correct word), or sidetracks...
 
-------------------------------------------------


Knife guy,




Great to hear that ya are having a go at it!
 

[Old Philosopher]

Agreed that we are getting caught up in semantics here, and straying from the point.
Connotations can differ slightly from definitions.
In my mind, when you rub two things together you get friction. The molecules are excited and heat is generated. When the heat of the friction reaches the kindling temperature of one of the two objects being rubbed together, it ignites.
You have friction when you rub flint against steel (e.g., the spark wheel on a cigarette lighter). But neither the flint, nor the steel wheel ignite. It's the tiny bits of material that flake off which ignite, as PW described.
The connotation of "friction fire" has always been rubbing two pieces of wood together until enough heat is generated to ignite the wood. It would probably better serve the discussion to go with this generally accepted concept, than pull out the dictionaries.....

[PetrifiedWood]

I agree, OP.

I don't think anyone really puts flint and steel into a friction fire category. Apples and oranges, IMO.

[LetsRock]

Yeah, my take is friction fire typically has something to do with rubbing two sticks together in some way.

We're all kinda stuck with working with materials found in our local environments. Store bought Cedar tends to be the most recommended way to learn the bow drill because it can be found in a nearby home improvement store no matter what part of the continent you live in. A 1" by 8' piece of Cedar is like $4 (USD) at Home Depot or Lowes. Excellent wood to learn with and get a good understanding of the fundamentals of friction fire-making. That is, unless you've got someone proficient teaching you directly or mails you a proven set that's ideal for beginners. Once you've got a few successes under your belt then go out and experiment with the different woods commonly found in your area.

The best advice is be willing to try. Expect to fail. Each failure becomes experience and leads to better understanding. Practice when no one's looking so you won't feel embarrassed. There's a ton of YouTube videos and tutorials out there to reference if you're having trouble (or ask questions here).

Video tape yourself, watch then delete. I use an old basic point & shoot camera (Canon). Watch the footage to see what you're doing wrong (or not doing) from a 3rd person point-of-view and compare it to some YouTube videos. Delete and repeat until you get success and you're proud to show people your video. I just use Windows Live Movie Maker (free) for basic video-editing and upload it to YouTube.

[RBM]

Only thing that I am bummed about is... No new folks posting anything..
??


Some folks have said they will post up something.. But they are busy.
Some folks think( and "say".)... "Been there, Done that.".. Why waste the time...
Some folks, like me, just haven't felt like doing this stuff again, till I feel like it.

That's great. I am all for it. Why don't we start with you? What have you done lately?

[PetrifiedWood]

Ive got a couple of failure vids i might be able to scrounge up. I was out poking around a few weeks back at a campsite and collected some more seasoned juniper and made a bowdrill set. But my leather cord snapped twice while burning in so i didnt get to go for an ember.

[TwinBlade]

Only thing that I am bummed about is... No new folks posting anything..
??


Some folks have said they will post up something.. But they are busy.
Some folks think( and "say".)... "Been there, Done that.".. Why waste the time...
Some folks, like me, just haven't felt like doing this stuff again, till I feel like it.

That's great. I am all for it. Why don't we start with you? What have you done lately?

Besides take 3 hours of his life last night to educate me on trees, woods, why certain grains work better, principles, different ways and styles,  design etc over the phone you mean?

[upthecreek]

I'll grease the wheel....



You really need to watch this one to understand the fellowship.



Creek

[MnSportsman]

Only thing that I am bummed about is... No new folks posting anything..
??


Some folks have said they will post up something.. But they are busy.
Some folks think( and "say".)... "Been there, Done that.".. Why waste the time...
Some folks, like me, just haven't felt like doing this stuff again, till I feel like it.

That's great. I am all for it. Why don't we start with you? What have you done lately?

What I have always done....
Just what I feel like.


Up until lately, I was minding my own business.. I should likely return to that too.

[LetsRock]

Good effort, upthecreek! I've had many of those ill-fated moments too. Although, those moments can help you get good with recovery experience. We understand this aspect of fellowship, that's for sure. 

[upthecreek]

I just knew I had it......

[SwampHanger]

Thanks for the vid upthecreek!

[TwinBlade]

So I have a 3 day weekend coming up. I think I will go over to hone depot for some cedar and try this. Yeah it's skimping but so what I have plenty of time to do this too. Sunday I gotta get the 75 gallon full set up aquarium I bought off my buddy but that's it.

More to come...

[Red]

I share your frustration creek.. the past 3 nights ive not been able to even get an ember with a proven set. the humidity is killing it before it starts

[TwinBlade]

Ok, if I could keep the bow string from slipping on the spindle, I would be in good shape. I think I need to make a few revolutions around the spindle and just hold the loose end instead of relying on knots at both ends to not stretch slightly with only one wrap around the spindle.

[Old Philosopher]

Ok, if I could keep the bow string from slipping on the spindle, I would be in good shape. I think I need to make a few revolutions around the spindle and just hold the loose end instead of relying on knots at both ends to not stretch slightly with only one wrap around the spindle.

I believe what you're describing is pretty close to an Egyptian bow drill, but the string is still tied to both ends of the bow.

[TwinBlade]

Ok, if I could keep the bow string from slipping on the spindle, I would be in good shape. I think I need to make a few revolutions around the spindle and just hold the loose end instead of relying on knots at both ends to not stretch slightly with only one wrap around the spindle.

I believe what you're describing is pretty close to an Egyptian bow drill, but the string is still tied to both ends of the bow.

Well I am thinking paracord is a bad idea anyways. I may have to find something else with a little more bite.

Wonder how a leather deer lace would work....

[LetsRock]

I recommend using paracord. It's the most ideal as a bow drill bowstring. Using paracord, you shouldn't need to wrap it around the spindle more than once (You can if you want, though). It should have enough bite with one wrap. I recommend tying it to both ends of the bow. Paracord is plenty strong enough. It won't break (at least after many attempts).

The bowstring slippage is probably due to the bow not being sturdy or stout enough. If it's flimsy then you'll get slippage (the bow flexes too much). If you have a lot of friction under the bearing-block (hand-hold), that can also contribute to bowstring slippage (Use barsoap as a lubricant in the bearing-block divot).

Good Luck!

[TwinBlade]

I recommend using paracord. It's the most ideal as a bow drill bowstring. Using paracord, you shouldn't need to wrap it around the spindle more than once (You can if you want, though). It should have enough bite with one wrap. I recommend tying it to both ends of the bow. Paracord is plenty strong enough. It won't break (at least after many attempts).

The bowstring slippage is probably due to the bow not being sturdy or stout enough. If it's flimsy then you'll get slippage (the bow flexes too much). If you have a lot of friction under the bearing-block (hand-hold), that can also contribute to bowstring slippage (Use barsoap as a lubricant in the bearing-block divot).

Good Luck!

Its stout enough and I used a block of nylon from work for my bearing bloc. The divot is perfect thanks to a 2 flute 3/8" ball nose endmill. Not too bushcrafty but oh well

That bow is like 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" in diameter.I can put enough pressure to get it to smoke, but any more and the paracord slips. Maybe my knots are slipping a bit. I know it is hell trying to get that spindle wrapped once in it so it is tight at the start....

Yeah the spindle is upside down too. I wasn't paying attention to technical details LOL!!

[LetsRock]

Everything you have looks do-able. My first guess is, did you do a "burn-in" before cutting the notch in the fireboard? You wanna make sure you've got good smooth bowing action before cutting the notch (Mate the spindle to the fireboard). If you cut the notch before the burn-in that can cause the spindle to bind, which in-turn can cause the bowstring slippage or spindle flip-outs.

If the bowstring knots are coming loose, it should be noticeable enough to see. Resecure and try again. If you're getting good smooth bowing action and still getting slippage then ease up on the downward pressure or pinch the bowstring with your thumb and fingers (bowing hand) to apply more tension on the bowstring. Or, try wrapping the bowstring a few times around the spindle (Egyptian method) to get better grip. Single or multiple wraps should work either way with paracord.

[RBM]

Cutting facets in the middle of the spindle so it is unround help the cord to grip better. Tight cord grip.

The Egyptian method uses either the cord through a hole in the spindle or a knot midway on the spindle and this prevents cord slippage. Slippage can still occur with multiple wraps of the cord (if cord is not tight) without the cord at a fixed point on the spindle. Tightness of the cord is not as much of a concern with the Egyptian method as the tension method because of the fixed point of the cord on the spindle. The cord does not wear as badly when at a fixed point on the spindle either. Multiple wraps is still the Egyptian method even without the fixed point on the spindle but the reason for the fixed point is preventing slippage on the spindle and reducing cord wear.

http://www.primitiveways.com/e-fire.html

[PetrifiedWood]

One thing you can try if you have a serrated knife is to drag the serrations along the side of the spindle to scrape longitudinal grooves in it. I had some slipping when using the traditional method and this made the spindle grippy enough. I also used poly core cotton clothes line as a cord. You could also try moistening the sides of the spindle making sure not to get any on the ends. Depending on the wood this might make it grip better similar to moistening your fingers before turning a page.

[04man]

A month ago I stumbled across this site and wondered if I too can start a friction fire. Sunday I sharpened my axe and got busy. I didn't want to buy materials, just things around the yard.

[04man]

So I chunked off a slice and cleaned up the sides.

[04man]

I was really surprised how much finish work I could do with a sharp axe. I smoothed out my hearth quite well.

[04man]

Chose the straightest stick I could find.
Cleaned up nicely.

[04man]

I whittled on my spindle for hours trying to straighten it and I started to wonder if my wood was too hard. I cut down two Japanese Maples and had no idea if this wood would be suitable.

Oh, and that's Spaz in the background. One of three Weim's I have.

[04man]

Got my divot started...
Got my spindle as straight as I could...

[04man]

Got my initial burn...
Getting smoke but still having a hard time keeping it all together.

[04man]

This is a little video.
Having a hard time posting it.

[04man]

Oh no.
Can anyone tutor me on posting a video from photobucket?
It's going to be hard for me to continue without the aid of video.
I'm using an iPhone.

[04man]

I was so jazzed only to be let down by this.

I have an early wake up for work so this will have to wait. Tomarrow is another day.

I look forward to posting my video and possibly being welcomed to The Fellowship.

'Night all.

[Old Philosopher]

Oh no.
Can anyone tutor me on posting a video from photobucket?
It's going to be hard for me to continue without the aid of video.
I'm using an iPhone.

On my Photobucket videos, when I hover over a video icon, the drop down menu includes "IMG code". Clicking on that copies the URL into your buffer. Just get back here to your post and "paste" what was copied from PB.

[Old Philosopher]

....
I'm using an iPhone.

Now I understand why all your pix were in individual posts, instead of grouped under one post.

[04man]

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s376/82toydude1/9726B720-E288-4E93-AB8F-8D4EF9A4D5D0-2922-000005D7E1EA6EA3.mp4

 .... Didn't work?

[Old Philosopher]

 .... Didn't work?

Sorry... I know how PB works, but I don't have a clue how to troubleshoot the iPhone compatibility here.

[PetrifiedWood]

I took the liberty of editing your post, 04man.

You used IMG tags with a video url so it wasn't showing up. I changed the tags to URL tags and now it should appear as a link. The easiest way to embed video is to host it on youtube, and use the youtube tags in your post editor window.

If you want to hos the videos on photobucket, folks can just follow the link, but you will probably get more views if you host it on youtube. I'll go check out the video and if it is a successful friction fire I'll add you to the group.

EDIT:

Ok, watched the video, lots of smoke, no flames yet. Keep it up and good luck!

[RBM]

I whittled on my spindle for hours trying to straighten it and I started to wonder if my wood was too hard. I cut down two Japanese Maples and had no idea if this wood would be suitable.

It wasn't stated but the first photo where the board was cut looks to be Oak wood and that is a hardwood. Don't have any idea about Japanese Maple for a spindle. I see black dust and that is a good thing. Really can't see what is going on at the working end or the notch from the photos. The video won't run at my end. Don't stop spinning until either there is smoke from the dust pile separate from the spindle or the spindle bottoms out. If you are having a hard time getting a coal find some solid dry and sap free wood that will etch with your fingernail. Good luck. Keep on keeping on.

[kanukkarhu]

Okay, that does it. I'm all motivated up now to try this again!!

KK

[PetrifiedWood]

Okay, that does it. I'm all motivated up now to try this again!!

KK

Nice to see you get the motivation again. You will get it this time. Just take a look back through the threads, both this one and yours to refresh your memory on all the tips and tricks and give it another go.

[04man]

Petrifiedwood, thanks for making that happen for me. I'm of the age where the electronic stuff is still magic. Working off my iPhone only makes it more difficult. So, do I have to have a YouTube account? And, could you work that magic one more time for me?

RBM, my hearth and spindle are made of Japanese Maple. The bow is of apricot branch and 550 cord.

I had read that it was a good idea to use the same wood for hearth and spindle and that the wood should be soft enough to make an indentation with a finger nail. My finger nails won't make a mark on a booger let alone a piece of wood. Once I learned to keep my bowstring close to the work and to stay focused on that alone smoke came much easier that I anticipated. I cut my notch and got ember second try.

I would like to post the ember video, with a little help from Petrifiedwood./img]

[04man]