Friction Fire Fellowship

[04man]

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s376/82toydude1/F6C03A69-DB91-41DF-9898-A70847DF7D47-2922-000006888F920A1A.mp4

Anyone have a suggestion as to why I couldn't get a flame? I've had less ember while camping and have achieved fire. Maybe too much dog hair mixed with wood shavings? Lol.

[Old Philosopher]

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s376/82toydude1/F6C03A69-DB91-41DF-9898-A70847DF7D47-2922-000006888F920A1A.mp4

Anyone have a suggestion as to why I couldn't get a flame? I've had less ember while camping and have achieved fire. Maybe too much dog hair mixed with wood shavings? Lol.

Just a guess, but lift the ember on and into the tinder bundle?

[Moe M.]

  Yup,  what he said.

[upthecreek]

Our friend BigHat needs to be added to our fellowship.  He did this one on a meet up last summer.



Look forward to his safe return from duty.

Creek

[MATT CHAOS]

Way to go BigHat! 

+1 on the safe return!
 

[RBM]

Here is my first posted video on youtube showing yucca on seasoned pine with the firebow.



Thanks for all the help, Jeff (LetsRock).

[PetrifiedWood]

Wow that's about five times as long as I could imagine keeping up the sawing! Great technique. Thanks for sharing the video.

[rogumpogum]

I need to get in on this...

[RBM]

Wow that's about five times as long as I could imagine keeping up the sawing! Great technique. Thanks for sharing the video.

Slow and steady. Long bow strokes. I don't go fast and wear myself out. The coal will come. As long as the spindle keeps moving, heat and friction build up. I go longer a lot of times than may be necessary and that is because I am watching the dust pile and don't stop until I see smoke coming from it separate from the spindle or until the spindle bottoms out. This way I get very few "false" coals as they are called. Thinking there is a coal and there isn't. I don't like to stop too soon as I have done in the past and then I do end up with false coals. But stopping or not depends on energy reserves also. Seems like I am much less tired by going slow anyway. Sometimes the coal comes sooner or later. Sometimes it takes more than one burn hole on the board.

[LetsRock]

Nicely demonstrated, RBM!

I think you figured things out better on your own than with my help (video-editing challenges), ha ha. I still couldn't get a good file conversion with the things I was trying. Looks like you found the better way.

Nicely done using all natural materials and a shoestring for the bowstring (mentioned in the YouTube description). Especially with a single wrap on the spindle. There's definitely a difference using a shoestring as opposed to paracord for a bowstring. Excellent technique as well. Betcha there was hardly any wear & tear on the shoestring.

It might seem like a long effort, but he's got the right idea for here in humid Florida. Especially lately. I've been practicing and comparing the weather with my efforts and it seems any time the atmospheric pressure is down and the humidity is up it makes it that much more difficult to get an ember. Going longer tends to increase the success rate (steams away humidity/ moisture). Perhaps, the change of seasons might be a factor. The cold front hasn't made its way down to us yet.

In a way, I was glad to see someone else in Florida use Yucca for friction fire-making. It seems everyone (other worldwide YouTubers) rave about how wonderful it is. Yet, the Yucca I've used (found in various parts of Florida) has been more difficult to use than I'm led to believe. It works, but not as quick and effortless as others have suggested (like when someone makes a coal in just a few seconds).

[SwampHanger]

I reread this thread and maybe I missed it but isn't sycamore good wood?

[RBM]

Nicely demonstrated, RBM!

I think you figured things out better on your own than with my help (video-editing challenges), ha ha. I still couldn't get a good file conversion with the things I was trying. Looks like you found the better way.

Nicely done using all natural materials and a shoestring for the bowstring (mentioned in the YouTube description). Especially with a single wrap on the spindle. There's definitely a difference using a shoestring as opposed to paracord for a bowstring. Excellent technique as well. Betcha there was hardly any wear & tear on the shoestring.

It might seem like a long effort, but he's got the right idea for here in humid Florida. Especially lately. I've been practicing and comparing the weather with my efforts and it seems any time the atmospheric pressure is down and the humidity is up it makes it that much more difficult to get an ember. Going longer tends to increase the success rate (steams away humidity/ moisture). Perhaps, the change of seasons might be a factor. The cold front hasn't made its way down to us yet.

In a way, I was glad to see someone else in Florida use Yucca for friction fire-making. It seems everyone (other worldwide YouTubers) rave about how wonderful it is. Yet, the Yucca I've used (found in various parts of Florida) has been more difficult to use than I'm led to believe. It works, but not as quick and effortless as others have suggested (like when someone makes a coal in just a few seconds).

Not much wear and tear on the shoestring. Now if I was using a natural plant fiber cord......its an entirely different matter. Yes with all the humidity and rain here it for sure makes it more difficult and takes longer due to residual dampness in the wood even though it may be as dry as it can be under the wind and sun. Yucca is one of the "quicker to get coal" friction woods since it does have one of the lowest temperature ignition points as opposed to many other friction woods like willow or maple. But factor in the humidity and dampness from rain and that temperature ignition point goes up substantially making it harder than under dry conditions and we have had plenty of humidity and rain lately. Not to mention the seasoned pine. That video was shot on Friday 10-5-2012. I will start to sound like a broken record but the best friction wood I have ever used so far is that of the Mallow family, namely the native wild Heartleaf Sida. That is "the" quickest to get coal friction wood I have used so far. Very few revolutions on the firebow. Must have an even lower ignition temperature than yucca. Not even Horseweed on Grapevine root or Dog Fennel on Grapevine root can beat it and those combos aren't bad if the Grapevine root is hard enough.

[RBM]

I reread this thread and maybe I missed it but isn't sycamore good wood?

Sycamore has shown up on a lot of friction wood lists and I hear about it all the time. Don't have any here that I know of but give it a shot if you got it.

[PetrifiedWood]

Wow that's about five times as long as I could imagine keeping up the sawing! Great technique. Thanks for sharing the video.

Slow and steady. Long bow strokes. I don't go fast and wear myself out. The coal will come. As long as the spindle keeps moving, heat and friction build up. I go longer a lot of times than may be necessary and that is because I am watching the dust pile and don't stop until I see smoke coming from it separate from the spindle or until the spindle bottoms out. This way I get very few "false" coals as they are called. Thinking there is a coal and there isn't. I don't like to stop too soon as I have done in the past and then I do end up with false coals. But stopping or not depends on energy reserves also. Seems like I am much less tired by going slow anyway. Sometimes the coal comes sooner or later. Sometimes it takes more than one burn hole on the board.

Well it obviously pays off. I think the slower speed has to make the spindle more controllable.

[RBM]

Wow that's about five times as long as I could imagine keeping up the sawing! Great technique. Thanks for sharing the video.

Slow and steady. Long bow strokes. I don't go fast and wear myself out. The coal will come. As long as the spindle keeps moving, heat and friction build up. I go longer a lot of times than may be necessary and that is because I am watching the dust pile and don't stop until I see smoke coming from it separate from the spindle or until the spindle bottoms out. This way I get very few "false" coals as they are called. Thinking there is a coal and there isn't. I don't like to stop too soon as I have done in the past and then I do end up with false coals. But stopping or not depends on energy reserves also. Seems like I am much less tired by going slow anyway. Sometimes the coal comes sooner or later. Sometimes it takes more than one burn hole on the board.

Well it obviously pays off. I think the slower speed has to make the spindle more controllable.

Hmmmm. That's a tough one, I have to think on that a while. Spindle control to me is more dependent on how good of a socket I have, how well its lubed, and how tight its locked against my leg. Also how straight the spindle is. Control of the spindle begins when the spindle seats or marries itself to the burn hole. But speed........Slowin g the bow speed down and using the full run of the cord is less tiring while heat and friction slowly build up.

I guess it could be looked on as making the spindle more controllable. When actions are slower, they are more deliberate and less prone to error simply because motor skills are not rushed. That's a fancy way of saying you can correct things as you go if you move slower.

[PetrifiedWood]

When actions are slower, they are more deliberate and less prone to error simply because motor skills are not rushed. That's a fancy way of saying you can correct things as you go if you move slower.

That's exactly where I was going with it. More often than not when I have a spindle spring free it's when I'm drilling faster trying to get a coal in a hurry. I have had them spring out when going slower while burning in but that is probably because the divots in the fireboard and bearing block haven't been well formed yet. Like you say, the deliberate slow movements make it easier to correct bad form before it causes the spindle to fling away.

[RBM]

When actions are slower, they are more deliberate and less prone to error simply because motor skills are not rushed. That's a fancy way of saying you can correct things as you go if you move slower.

That's exactly where I was going with it. More often than not when I have a spindle spring free it's when I'm drilling faster trying to get a coal in a hurry. I have had them spring out when going slower while burning in but that is probably because the divots in the fireboard and bearing block haven't been well formed yet. Like you say, the deliberate slow movements make it easier to correct bad form before it causes the spindle to fling away.

I agree. When it comes to fire, rushing things (parts , technique, and the process) is a sure recipe for failure. The odds are already stacked against success but rushing will make it worse.

[RBM]

Here is a new one that shows Cattail spindle on Yucca board with a Yucca leaf cord. Egyptian method was used. Pine needle tinder bundle.

[PetrifiedWood]

Nicely done. Looks like the cord held up pretty good!

[RBM]

Nicely done. Looks like the cord held up pretty good!

Thanks. I would not even attempt to use the tension method on a spindle as fragile as a Cattail stalk even after it has dried hard. Yep the single 2-ply Yucca cord held up good.

[PetrifiedWood]

We have some cattails around here in places. I might have to give one a try. How would you say their relative strength or fragility compares to a mullein stalk of the same length?

[RBM]

We have some cattails around here in places. I might have to give one a try. How would you say their relative strength or fragility compares to a mullein stalk of the same length?

Since we don't have mullein here that I know of I can't say but I am sure that cattail is the "most" fragile of stalks that I have used. Use it when its dried hard and then baby it (Don't use much pressure if any to the spindle on the board. Let the spinning do the job. Don't force the spindle either.). Another note of importance when using cattail stalk. Results will be much better if the tip or working end outer layer is shaved thin about the first inch or two that will be used on the board. The outer layer tends to be a bit harder that can cause problems on a Yucca board. Different wear areas on the board that you don't want or it may drill down and bottom out before enough friction builds up. Hope this helps when you get ready to use it. Might save some frustration.

[PetrifiedWood]

Thanks. I'll need to find a local replacement for yucca for a fireboard.  

[RBM]

No Yucca in Utah? Sotol, Spiny Yucca, etc.?

USDA says you got it.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=YUCCA

http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Utah&statefips=49&symbol=YUCCA

[PetrifiedWood]

No Yucca in Utah? Sotol, Spiny Yucca, etc.?

USDA says you got it.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=YUCCA

http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Utah&statefips=49&symbol=YUCCA

We've got it, just not in my part of the state. I have seen some in the Moab area. I live at about 6500 feet in a pinyon juniper woodland.

We do get some small opuntia cacti though and I have thought of drying a couple of pads out to see how they might work as fire boards.

[RBM]

No Yucca in Utah? Sotol, Spiny Yucca, etc.?

USDA says you got it.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=YUCCA

http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Utah&statefips=49&symbol=YUCCA

We've got it, just not in my part of the state. I have seen some in the Moab area. I live at about 6500 feet in a pinyon juniper woodland.

We do get some small opuntia cacti though and I have thought of drying a couple of pads out to see how they might work as fire boards.

Yeah, give the dried cactus pads a try. Let us know how that works for you. That's a good idea. If that works for you I may dry out some prickly pear cactus pads here and give that try. After I burn or scrape off the spines that is.

[LetsRock]

Wow RBM, Cattail seems kinda delicate for bow drill. You must have been extra careful to make it work. Not sure I coulda pulled it off for bow drill. I was however able to make a hand drill fire using Cattail on Yellow Pine.

I also wanted to start noting weather conditions when going for coals to see how it affects friction fire success (trend analysis). Overall, I think this was a pretty good day (easy day) to make a friction fire. Although, the hand drill set was stored indoors (protected from the elements).

Current weather for this day (Sat 13 Oct 2012) in the Tampa Bay area, Florida (as per Accuweather.com):
Around 2:15pm: EDT
Temperature: 83F (28C)
Humidity: 54%
Dew Point: 65F (18C)
Atmospheric Pressure: 30.16" (1021 mb)
Winds: 14mph (22kmh)

[RBM]

Wow RBM, Cattail seems kinda delicate for bow drill. You must have been extra careful to make it work. Not sure I coulda pulled it off for bow drill.

Sure you can. Its not so bad. I have seen some mini firebow sets so small that have to be seen to believe. Good one on the hand drill.

Just did this one yesterday. The coal came a lot faster. Sorry for the noise of the roofers and for the way youtube messed with the video.

[LetsRock]

I guess I'll have to give Cattail a try as a bow drill. Just seems so fragile in comparison to other weed stalks I use. Nevertheless, between the two of us we're showing that Cattail's a great friction fire option.

Another excellent vid, RBM. I haven't tried Horseweed or Grapevine as friction fire materials yet. I see Grapevine all over so I'll have to give it a try next chance I get.

[RBM]

I guess I'll have to give Cattail a try as a bow drill. Just seems so fragile in comparison to other weed stalks I use. Nevertheless, between the two of us we're showing that Cattail's a great friction fire option.

Another excellent vid, RBM. I haven't tried Horseweed or Grapevine as friction fire materials yet. I see Grapevine all over so I'll have to give it a try next chance I get.

If you do use Grapevine, you will want the Grapevine to be dried hard. If its soft then you will have major problems with keeping a spindle on it. I suspect a lot of different spindles could be used on Grapevine. Nice aroma too. Unlike stinky Horseweed.

This last one I just put up shows Willow on Willow.

[Old Philosopher]

Anyone ever use anything as off-the-wall as Grape Poppy for a spindle? I just cut some down, and noticed it's straight as an arrow shaft, and harder than either cattail, or mullien.

[RBM]

Anyone ever use anything as off-the-wall as Grape Poppy for a spindle? I just cut some down, and noticed it's straight as an arrow shaft, and harder than either cattail, or mullien.

Nope. But put it on a softwood board and let us know how it works for you.

[upthecreek]

I have to get to making fire again.

[kanukkarhu]

I have to get to making fire again.

Tell me about it, Creek!  I can't even read this thread anymore for guilt of not getting it done... 

My kit is crying out for me...

You know, gonna go try it RIGHT NOW! 

Thanks for the motivation!


KK

[LetsRock]

Perhaps you need a little Rocky motivation. Gonna Fly Now!

[LetsRock]

Friction fire bow drill using freshly found Pignut Hickory.
Man-made items used: A Swiss Army Knife & paracord

Fireboard: Pignut Hickory
Spindle: Pignut Hickory
Bearing-block: Half of a Hickory nut
Bearing-block Lubricant: Grapevine leaves
Bow: Laurel Oak
Bowstring: Paracord (550 cord)
Coal Catcher/ Ember Pan: An Oak leaf
Tinder Bundle: Palmetto Hair (ie. Monkey Fur)

Current weather conditions:
Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida
Date: Sun 14 Oct 2012, 3:30pm EDT
Temperature: 88F (31C)
Humidity: 54%
Dew Point: 68F (20C)
Atmospheric Pressure: 30.00" (1016 mb)
Elevation: 60ft Above Sea Level (not far from the beach)
Wind: 0mph (0kph)

[RBM]

Wow. Pignut Hickory. We have Scrub Hickory as you may recall seeing it (I pointed it out) when you were over here. "Any" hickory would be unthinkable to me its so hard. A harder hardwood than oak probably. I bet you "had" to use para cord for that. Maybe the hickory was degraded so that the density was turning softer and making it more usable?

BTW, beginners should stay away from hickory or any hardwood as a friction wood. Same goes for resinous or sappy pine. It would just cause sheer frustration.

[upthecreek]

wow is right.

[RBM]

Hey Jeff, instead of using that hickory for a friction set, make an archery bow out of it.

[LetsRock]

Well, those branches broke off the Hickory tree real easy. A little girl could have broken those branches off with ease, ha ha (as you can see in the vid). I guess the idea here is to not automatically discount seemingly difficult options without verifying for yourself first, ha ha. State of decay! State of decay....

In this case, an archery bow is not so likely, but I'd at least have several weeks to figure something out, after I get tired of insects and vegetation, ha ha.

[kanukkarhu]

Well, that was an hour and a half of my life I won't get back...

Twice I had the black dust smoking, and twice it went out.  And those two times represent a lot of other failed attempts... 

Frustrating!

Oh well... Live to fight another day I guess.

KK

[RBM]

Well, that was an hour and a half of my life I won't get back...

Twice I had the black dust smoking, and twice it went out.  And those two times represent a lot of other failed attempts... 

Frustrating!

Oh well... Live to fight another day I guess.

KK

KK, did you fan the smoking dust a little to expand the coal to the surrounding dust? The coal might get bigger if you do feed a little air to it. Once the coal is a little bigger it can then be transferred to the tinder. Keep at it. You will get it.

BTW, I agree with Les on this that if I was in a situation where I really need fire and I was doing this (not practicing), I would get rid of the coal catch. I would put my board directly on the tinder so the coal is already in the tinder eliminating the need to transfer. The transfer step can be a liability. Knock the coal, drop it, wind blows it away, and so on.

[kanukkarhu]

Well, that was an hour and a half of my life I won't get back...

Twice I had the black dust smoking, and twice it went out.  And those two times represent a lot of other failed attempts... 

Frustrating!

Oh well... Live to fight another day I guess.

KK

KK, did you fan the smoking dust a little to expand the coal to the surrounding dust? The coal might get bigger if you do feed a little air to it. Once the coal is a little bigger it can then be transferred to the tinder. Keep at it. You will get it.

BTW, I agree with Les on this that if I was in a situation where I really need fire and I was doing this (not practicing), I would get rid of the coal catch. I would put my board directly on the tinder so the coal is already in the tinder eliminating the need to transfer. The transfer step can be a liability. Knock the coal, drop it, wind blows it away, and so on.

No glowing ember. Just a pile of smoking black dust. I don't think I quite went long enough. Eventually, I just got pooped and ticked off and called it an evening.

I'll get it. I'm just sneaking up on it...

[LetsRock]

Friction fire bow drill using all natural materials (found on-the-spot).

The video's a bit long, but includes overcoming problems. I could have easily edited it to make it look like I did it perfectly in 2 minutes or so, ha ha, but opted to show pretty much how it happened instead.

I originally thought to use only Yellow Pine for everything, but it didn't work out that way. Ended up using Sabal Palm for the spindle. Which is OK, it's about as abundant as the Pine in this wooded area I was in; Was just trying to keep it simple.

I used Yellow Pine for the fireboard, bearing-block, bow, and even the punk wood. Pine bark was the platform to catch the coal/ ember. The spindle was Sabal Palm (aka Cabbage Palm). The natural cordage bowstring and tinder bundle fibers (Palmetto Hair/ Monkey Fur) are from Saw Palmetto.

Overall, it took me about 2.5 hours from foraging to flame (at a leisure pace).

Weather conditions were:
Tampa Bay area, Florida
Sun 21 Oct 2012 between about 1:40pm to 4:10pm
Temp: 79F (26C)
Humidity: 40%
Pressure: 30.03in (101.69kPa or 1016.93mb)
Dew Point: 52F (11C)
Wind: 7mph (11kph)

[04man]

For approval here is my first video of two.

Wish it was as nice as all of yours but I'm limited to a phone and my friend called which automatically stops the recording.http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s376/82toydude1/4BBE1D65-414A-4ABD-ABC4-C35A91D80C4C-4825-00000A0DB5294192.mp4

[04man]

I'm glad that worked out!

Here's the second part after the call.http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s376/82toydude1/E023F6AF-40E7-4F9F-82D8-F9DD41656EF7-4825-00000A0DE3C9F200.mp4

[04man]

I really thought the coal was going to smolder out the bottom.

I threw down the challenge to some friends and so far only one ( the guy that called and screwed up my video) almost made fire. I think that this method is impressive as hell and my challenge to myself is to try natural vegetation though I live in a very arid area. The cattail spindle I think I'll give a try.

[PetrifiedWood]

Well done! Is that a weimaraner in the background?

I'll get you added to the FFF shortly.

[PetrifiedWood]

Nice video LetsRock. There is certainly a good bit to take away from the problem solving. You guys are tenacious!

[04man]

Woohoo! Yeah!
I'm gonna have a beer to celebrate.

Yes, I have three Weim's.  Usually they move about with such energy it's hard to pick them apart. The two in the background I successfully tired out( and they're getting older). It's part of my weight loss strategy.

WooHoo! Where's that beer?