FlaMike's Glades Skiff

[FlaMike]

I was leaning towards leaving it "as is." But I fell the other way!
Couldn't help but give it one more try and here's the result:



Before I do the stich & glue thing, I will round off the bottom of the stem to better meet the bottom. At the keel, if it had one, which it doesn't. (Not real sure how to describe it!)

And another look at it on the horses:



The afternoon rain should be along any minute now. I'll have to move it back inside, so that's about it for the day. Next week, the bow will be closed, the bottom panels joined, and the sides will be going on.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

I wonder how its gonna track? It will be interesting to get the both side by side.

[FlaMike]

When the skiff is being poled, tracking shouldn't be much of an issue. Last time I did pole a boat, I learned to use the pole as a rudder at the end of each push. Kind of like a J stroke with a paddle.

Now for paddling, I kind of suspect the tracking won't be so hot! The high bow and lack of a sharp, submerged stem, it will likely be all over the map,  unless you are really paying attention and have your J stroke down pat! I also think that the lighter the load, the more the tracking will suffer. Put some weight in it, things should improve to a degree.

Kind of like the swamp pirogue and the marsh pirogue. The swamp version has a lot of rocker, won't track very well at all, but it is extremely maneuverable. Its the one you want to navigate through tight spaces. The marsh pirogue tracks fairly well. Good for longer distances when the water's more open, and no really tight turns will be needed.

But, as you say, we'll see!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

Sounds good as long as your not in any current. I found on our trips on the Oklawaha that I had to sit in the boat and paddle Canadian style useing the edge as a keel. If polling is your main use of movement it may limit where you can go. It is so dependent of rainfall everywhere and what activity I'm doing as to which way I power the boat.

[FlaMike]

SwampHanger,

You've hit on an interesting point. The one thing I've become concerned about is people from different areas that think they might want to build a Glades Skiff. I'm not sure they understand that this is a very specialized design, meant for use under specific conditions.

This boat was designed and build to be used in the River of Grass. It was made to move through waters that are very shallow and that have little to no current. It is what you need when the water is full of submerged and emergent vegetation. It is also a design that is meant to be poled more than paddled.

In short, it is very specific to the Everglades.

I will be taking it there. I'm lucky in that there are some local lakes that are shallow enough and current-free to get some use of the skiff, so it won't just sit and collect dust waiting for me to make another trip down South.

I wouldn't build this design without the intent of putting it to use where it was designed to be. That is why this build will be followed by a swamp pirogue. And more than likely, the pirogue will get a lot more use than the Glades Skiff will. It is true that there are some saltwater marshes that the skiff will probably work in, but the pirogue will do that too.

For use in Florida's swampy areas, I'd advise anyone who wants to build, to go with a pirogue. I'm building the Glades Skiff primarily because of my historical interest. As for the next pirogue, that same historical bent is why I'll be building a design by Keith Felder of Denham Springs, LA. For those who are more interested in the general pirogue type, and good, easy build would be a design from Uncle John's. One plan and you can build from 12' up to about 15'6". Most decide on the 14' version. Good design and great instructions. He leaves lots of options to the builder.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[PetrifiedWood]

Got to have a pirouge so you can set it on a couple of sawhorses and fill it with boiled crawfish! 

Thanks for clarifying that this is a very specific design that might not be well suited to other areas.

Still enjoying following the build. i hope you will document the pirogue when you build it as well. I remember a guy in my high school wood shop class built one but I didn't pay enough attention to remember much about it. it would be nice to see another one take shape.

[SwampHanger]

That's great your gonna take it to the glades! I'm planning on a trip down when my youngest is a little more self sufficient. Mine paddles pretty well and move through weeds like a breeze. I've been looking at the Canun crafts for a while. But I have to make room in my garage  for any more boats.

[FlaMike]

The first casualty of war is the plan of battle. It is usually felled by the first shot.

Didn't get done near what I'd planed on doing. (See opening line.) But, I did get stuff done, so here it is, a long with what I learned doing it.

Lesson Learned, IF you decide to make a correction, make it. Once done, move on! Keep messing with it, you'll eventually screw it up.

Had the bow closed up, held in place with a wooden clamp. I decided to increase the radius of the turn between the stem and the boat's bottom. Not a bad idea, seemed to work. But, I also decided to adjust the rake by cutting it back. Well, that worked too, but I lost a little of that radius in the process. Then came the "back and forth" adjustments. In themselves, they weren't bad, but every time I "adjusted" something, I had to loosen the bolt on the wood clamp, then re-tighten it. Eventually, that bolt broke.

Off to the store, burning daylight and time, I got another one. Other lesson learned, If you only need ONE, get TWO. You'll either break one, or loose it. Also, the instructions called for a clamp made out of angle iron. Should have payed attention to that one. The wood clamp worked well enough, but it was a little too wide and it didn't leave much room to work with the wire stitching. Also, the angle iron would have been easier to work with, now that I fully understand the job it was to do.

What I *think* is different about the way the stitching was done by the original builder did it, was that the stitches didn't close the bow up, that was done by the clamp. The stitches tied the bow together and held it that way, as they were not removed after the glue has cured, as it is done with modern stitch & glue construction.

Since I never quite figured out exactly how the original builder used the copper wire for stitching, based on his description of the process, I decided to add some elements of the modern technique to make certain the joint would be secure, but use the heavy wire and leave it in place, to at least look like the original method. (Or close to it, anyway.)

Here is what I did: First, I removed the clamp (again!) and let the wood spring apart. Epoxy was then spread on the contacting surfaces. After it kicked-off, I applied a second coat and put the clamp back on and tightened it up.

NOTE, when doing this, make certain that the bottom edges are perfectly even when you start closing the bow. One side will always try to ride up over the other one. Tighten and check, adjust if needed, then tighten some more. When it is completely closed, the two top edges of the sides should be even. If not, loosen it back up, and pay more attention to the bottom edges as you tighten it up again. Failure to do so will result in a bow that is asymmetrical. (A bad thing.)



The hole was drilled side-to-side and the copper wire pushed through it. The wire was then pulled forward and the two ends crossed across the stem, pulled tight, then bent back towards the hole.



The ends of the wire are then bent down toward the hull, so the ends can be driven into the ply. Basically, you are making a large, copper staple. Then do just that, drive it in.



I'll see about tightening this up, as I put in the rest of them.

Is that how it was done? I have NO idea. But when it's done, I think it will look right. And I hope to get the definitive word on the actual method in the near future. Too late for this build, but I could easily decide to build another if I gain enough information to make it worthwhile.

So, now for the more conventional approach, which does kind of turn the copper wire more-or-less into "decoration."

Here, epoxy has been mixed with wood flour and poured into the the seam at the bow, after standing the section up.
 


Some tape and a shop rag made a dam to keep the mix from running out over the end. Once that had kicked, The boat half was turned back right side up and put back on the saw horses. Time to address the split down the middle from the bow:



Same process, epoxy & wood flour mixed to where it's still just a little runny, to be self-leveling, and tape on the other side of the seam to keep it IN the hull.

I'll shoot for getting a more substantial amount done tomorrow, it is a little more straight forward, scarfing the two hull bottoms together. And then I should be able to start fitting the cypress plank sides to the bottom.

Should make for an interesting day. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Got the two pieces of ply scarfed together today. I'd liked to have gotten more that that done, but I was able to move enough stuff around while the epoxy was curing to be able to move the full length skiff into the garage for the night. Plus, I extracted my table saw from the garage so I can use it tomorrow. (That was a major accomplishment.)

In the past, I used an epoxy and fiberglass butt joint to make a long piece of plywood out of two shorter ones. It's a good joint, easy to do, and doesn't look bad at all. To me, it's better looking than using a butt block, sometimes called a "hog-piece. But that does the job, too. I have made scarf joints, but with solid wood, not ply. I've scarfed rub rails together, a pair of paddles to make a double-ended paddle, and some chair rails when re-doing the bedroom.

So, a scarf joint for plywood. It is do-able, even for a complete novice, but you really should take some scrap ply and practice. It doesn't take long to "get the touch" so you can do it right, but definitely get some practice FIRST. You'll see why, in a moment.

Normally, a scarf joint would be an 8:1 joint. If the ply is 1/4" then the joint should be 2" long. I point that out because this design calls for a "short" scarf, 4:1, or a 1" joint. The 8:1, or even 12:1 was done before epoxy came along and the theory is that the much stronger glue should let you use a lesser ration, like the 4:1. However, I don't think anyone has really tested this theory. Why Mr. Simmons decided to go with the 4:1, I don't know. But apparently it worked for him and I am building as close to his method as I can.

Here is how it goes:

You first decide on which sides are to be up, usually the best side, and which side you want down, (on the bottom. For the 4:1 joint, in 1/4" ply, mark off one inch on each piece. For this demo, I used a pair of scrap cut-offs:

   

The above left pic, the "T" means the top side, the line is one inch from the end, the part to be planed, or sanded, tapering from the line to the bottom at the end.

The above right pic shows both pieces from the side, with the wood to be removed blacked out.

 

You will be removing wood from BOTH pieces at the same time. And doing it this way, an unevenness on will, will be reflected in the other, and will sort of cancel each other out. (More-or-less, anyway.) In the above left pic, you "swing" the one piece down, as if the two were hinged together. Then, as seen on the above pic on the right, the swing is completed, one piece on top of the other.



Above, you see where the top piece has been slid back, so that the end of it is even with the 1" line on the bottom of the lower piece. Sand or plane the black parts away as shown above, reverse that swing you did, and you should get a nice fit, ready for gluing.

So much for theory, now for the reality:



Can't see in that pic, but the wood is sitting on a pair of planks, the ends even with the end of the lower ply sheet. C clamps have been placed to keep them lined up, you'll notice some scraps pieces being used with the clamps to protect the ply. The belt sander (80 grit to remove wood quickly may be a bit too much,) shows the angle to be sanded.



As you sand (or plane,) you'll be exposing the different layers in the ply, they will each show a different color. What you are looking for is to see these different layers showing as ribbons or bands, each the same width and with straight edges. That tells you the angle is correct. Really pay attention to that!



This is what it looks like when you aren't paying close enough attention, maybe because it is extremely HOT outside, you are sweating all over your work, and you're in a hurry because you're just this side of a heat stroke. (Or any other excuse you can think of.)

Truthfully, it should look a LOT better than this. I shouldn't have started this during the hottest part of the day. I should know better. And some practice before hand is something I should have done, but didn't. Here is where some thickened epoxy will save the day, once again. (Hopefully.)



I did spend a little time cleaning those edges up. Totally unnecessary if you do it right the first time. Then I move the lower piece in position, and slid a large piece of scrap ply underneath the joint area. A sheet of clear plastic was placed underneath the joint, wide enough to keep any epoxy from gluing the ply to the wood below. I then mixed up some epoxy without any thickener, to both pieces to be joined. While that was starting to kick off. I positioned the forward sheet and drove a couple of small nails through it into the wood below, to hold it in place. Then I mixed up some more epoxy, this time with wood flour (much finer that sawdust,) to a consistency like a runny baby food. (?)

This mixture was then applied to both pieces. Positioning the two pieces is awkward, on a good day. Even more so when working alone. But you do have a little time, so use it, don't rush things. Once the parts are together as close as you can get, and you've looked at the whole thing from both ends, to make sure it looks good and straight, another set of nails should be driven through the other sheet into the wood below, to prevent it from sliding away from the joint.

A second sheet of plastic is placed across the joint, so it wont stick to the wide, flat piece of wood that goes on next. And on top of that, goes some weights. Do NOT get carried away with the weights! Just enough to press that top piece of wood down on the joint. Too much weight will squeeze out the epoxy, resulting in a glue-starved joint that will fail. I used three jugs that I filled with water for this.

Now, nothing to do until the glue has fully cured. Once that happens, you have one long sheet of ply. When properly done, if it breaks, it will break anywhere other than that scarf joint.

If you've never done a scarf joint and never intend to, I'm sure this  post will bore you to tears! I apologize for that. But I went into detail, as I was asked about how it was done.

That's it for me. I'll be back at it in the AM, starting on figuring out how to shape and attach the cypress plank sides.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

Well, I was the one who asked, Mike, but I never expected that much good solid information AND with pictures, to boot!  THANK YOU!

I was thinking, while watching your build, that an extra set of hands would certainly have come in handy, but I know how that goes, too .   

I have only done a couple of scarf joints in my life.....one on a paddle and a couple more on a gunwale repair job, so I'm only very limited in technique or practice.  Your tutorial will be of great value to me (and others, I'm sure) in the future!   Thanks for going to the trouble of taking the photos and warning us of the pitfalls involved in the process!

[FlaMike]

Thanks, wolfy!

That makes it all worth it, to me.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Been thinking how I'm not too pleased with that first attempt at a plywood scarf joint. Failing to get some practice on some scrap material, I realize I could have built a simple scarfing jig and done with with a circular saw, much better than I did. So, I decided to add a an epoxy & fg strip, 6" wide, over both sides of the joint. Just as if I'd made a epoxy/glass butt joint in the first  place. Got the top part of that done, today.

Just done today, as the game was called on account of rain, about 3PM! The rain started coming down within 5 minutes after I moved it all in and closed the garage door.

But, I did get some stuff done. First, I needed to rip the side planks down to 10" wide. Wife had to go somewhere, but I figured out how to do it, myself. What made it work was the two, old chairs I'd already loaded into the truck to get rid of.



Didn't want the table saw to tilt over, so I put the three cypress planks that are being dried out across the bottom of the table saw stand. That anchored it to the ground, nicely. No extra hands available to steady the ends of the plank being ripped, that's where those two chairs came in handy. The pic above shows a plank ready to be ripped.



Above is shown a plank just finished it's trip across the table saw. About 3/4 the way thru the cut, I steadied the plank, turned the saw off, and when the blade stopped, I move the two chairs to the other end of the plank. Now the plank has been ripped, leaving me with one 10" wide piece for the skiff sides and a 3 1/2" wide piece for the next build.

Here, I've started shaping the side plank to fit the hull. Now I'll get some use out of the little hand plane I picked up the other day. I'm not ready to trust a power tool for this job!



Same from the other side:



I'd just moved this plank to the ground and set it up for planing when I thought I'd start on that "belt & suspenders" addition to the bottom panel scarf. I could be planing away while the epoxy cured, stop and apply the next coat of epoxy, then plane some more. (Once the first plank is fitted, it will used as a pattern for the other side.) Got the cloth cut and wetted out, then the thunder started. Glad I used the fast hardener for once! Had to move the boat off the sawhorses and onto the concrete pad so I could move the sawhorses and all the planks into the garage, the the wife was available to help move the boat. By now, the epoxy had kicked off enough that we were able to move it inside with no damage. Got it all in and the rains came and came hard.

I'd hoped to have both planks done and ready to be glued and nailed to the bottom today, so next week I could fit the transom and then start varnishing. So, I'm still one step behind where I should have been, but still going steady at it.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[zammer]

Good stuff Mike, I'm enjoying following your build...appreciate the narrative and pics, I know the effort it takes to put that stuff together.

[wolfy]

Me, too!

[FlaMike]

While answering the question about how the sides are joined to the bottom, I think I left out the phrase that really explains this sort of building where you are building from a concept, rather than a well laid out set of plans. Kieth and Seedtick on Southern Paddler (as well as some other forums,) build pirogues and other Southern Louisiana watercraft in a very traditional manner.

They would say that it was built "By hand and by eye."

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

No pics today. Saw the rain coming and got it all packed back inside and the door closed just as the first line came across and the rains came down.

As soon as I drag it all back out in the morning, I will take some pics before I get going again.

This is going to be the slow part. Both sides and the transom have been give a rough shape and now I'm working mostly with a hand plane to get things to fit. I have to decide if I'm going to have to pull the forward ends of the side planks in to fit the ply where it curves up forming the bow, or try to eek out a little more flair to the ply to bring it out to meet the side planks.

Most likely, it will be a combination of the two. This is where that "by hand and by eye" thing comes into play. I have to take another look at what information is in the book, the pics I've been able to find and download, then look at the boat until I can see what has to be done to make it work. And I will get some pics posted so you can see what I do to make it right. (Or what I did to screw it up.) Right now, I'm still confident that this will work out like it should.

Hot, tired and done for the day.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Pics of yesterday's efforts, taken this AM, before going at it some more.



Everything laid out, ready for today's work. I'd temporarily set up the sides so I could put them on the bottom to see how the fit was going.



Same as above, from the side. I'd like to point out that normally, you don't see the bottom of a boat sitting above the sides. I still have a conceptual problem with that!



The above is for those (few?) who haven't seen an epoxy and fiberglass cloth butt splice before. In this case, it is being used as a "back-up" for a less than ideally made 4:1 scarf joint. A clear finish over the plywood and that band of epoxy will pretty much disappear. Only the joint line will still be visible. And another one, just like it, will be on the other side of the plywood.

And now for what got done, today:



This is where my problem solving began. Kind of hard to see, but I ran some string from the forward points where the side planks should meet the bow, back to the stern points where the side planks meet the back corners of the bottom. Seeing this, with the side planks sitting in place, shows just how much "correction" is needed, and where. As I thought, it's going to be a combination of bending, planing, and some judicious trimming. But, no where near as much as I was thinking, yesterday.



Pic on the left, above, shows the start of making the two sides, match. One of the sides got most of the shaping done today, and the other side got clamped to it. Then I was able to make the other side a "mirror image" of it. The pic above on the right, shows it from the side, with the book for ready reference, sitting in the background.



It would seem, and rightfully so, that I cannot work without supervision. And the supervisor, Spike, shown above, informed me that I really should look up once in a while. He was right, as usual.



Time to pack it up again! Earlier than I'd liked, but undeniably TRUE.



But before I put it away, I took this last pic. I'd just finished making the transom and attached it to the side planks, along with some temporary frame molds that were as close to the proper size and spacing as I could figure. I put the sides upside down on the sawhorses and then put the bottom on top with some concrete weights to bend the ply down as if I was going to nail it together. (Which I'm not quite ready to do yet.)

Got a little more planing to do on the front of the side planks tomorrow and unless the rain starts even earlier than it did today, I hope to nail and glue the bottom and sides together. When that's done, the skiff will be about 90% complete. I think its time to order my varnish from Raka.

Oh, and I did actually start my "pack it away" maneuver just a little too late! The rain started just as I got the boat off the sawhorses so I could put them in the garage, first. It was raining lightly as I moved the 3 planks the boat sits on, and harder still, when I moved the boat and the last tool, the table saw, inside. I got soaked. The boat got pretty wet, too. But it will dry out in a couple of hours, no problem.

Me, I've always been a "drip dry" kind of guy, anyway.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

While reading and posting on Southern Paddler, I had gotten frustrated with how this build was going and wondered how come things just didn't seem to be going anywhere nearly as smoothly as I'd thought it would. Then I had something of an epiphany. For the benefit of those who have not done much boat building, I figured I'd explain the thought process I went through. 

When you are working outside of your comfort zone, you sometimes wonder if its really worth it. But when a problem gets solved, you know it is.

While getting to sleep last night, I realized I'd gotten way out in the deep weeds on this one. Then it occurred to me that I'd been given some good advice that I'd overlooked. When in doubt, go with what you know.

I was still having a hard time seeing exactly how the side planks were going to meet up with the curved plywood in the bow. I mean, I understood the basic process, but I couldn't relate that to what I was seeing. And that was the real problem, I wasn't able to actually see it. Every  time I set the bottom panels and the side planks up on the sawhorse, they were sitting on top three solid planks I was using as a work table. I could see what was happening with the outside of the hull, but the only way I could see what was going on with the inside surface was to turn the whole thing over. I needed to be able to see inside and out, at the same time.

So the answer turns out to be to do just what I've seen so many others do, and what I'd actually done myself. Add a couple of temporary mold frames that would hold the side planks in the desired shape which I'd gotten from the shape of the transom and then remove the "table top" from the sawhorses,  then place the side plank structure directly on the sawhorses, upside down. This makes it easy to see that the bevel on the bottom of the sides is correct and level. Then put the bottom ply upside down on top of that. Now I can see just how that fits from the outside, and ducking down under the boat, see how things line up on the inside, as well.

I figure not doing this early on probably cost me about two days of building time while I was wandering around, wrapped up inside my own thoughts, just muddling through. I guess there's a reason they call it "tried and true."

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[greyhound352]

Enjoying the progress pics and build along notes.

[FlaMike]

greyhound352,

Glad you find it interesting! One thing I have to do is show not only what's working, but what happens when it doesn't. I figure if someone can learn from my mistakes, then they'll be able to make some new mistakes of their own. (Or, something like that.)

And now, back to your regularly scheduled update:

Did I get everything done I'd hoped to? No, not at all. But what I did get done I can say I'm quite pleased with. I started out this morning doing exactly what I'd planned on, setting up some mold frames (or jigs) and truing up the sides.



This is my movable, expanding jig. It adjust to the flare, or helps set it, and can be moved anywhere in the boat its needed. What isn't seen, is the jack from my truck that I did use to see if the cypress planks would take the bend I decided I needed. Going slowly, a little at a time, the plank came around to where I wanted it. (It didn't break.)



As I've seen seedtick do so often in his build threads, I made sure the bottom ply will lay flat. I used the level because it was the best straight edge I had that was long enough to reach across. Sliding it from one end to the other, I was able to plane any high spots down. Although when I did this, the bow end was pulled in to where it should be. You'll notice those orange nylon straps in several pics. I get a LOT of mileage out of those.



I'd hoped this pic would have shown the rather acute angle that's needed at the bow end of the side plank. But it really doesn't show it very well.



Guess I should have put that bevel gauge in the above pic against the plank in the previous picture, that probably would have shown the angle of the bevel a lot better. And for the record, I usually do remember to lay the plane on its side when not in use.  :oops:



This is the part I was fighting with. The side planks are upside down on the sawhorses and I positioned the bottom panels on top. After today's work, the fit is pretty good, I think. There is just one section, about a foot long where I'm going to have about 1/2" of plywood hanging out past the plank to trim off. Earlier, I was afraid there'd be a lot more than that. The other "problem" I found that despite my clamping the two side together to make one a mirror of the other, the ends were not aligning with the bow piece quite the same.

I took some measurements after deciding the boat didn't have a twist or warp in it that I could see, and found that one plank was 1/4" longer than the other. 1/4" over 15 and a half feet? My little plane took care of that.

Since I had the boat upside down all day, I did add the other side of the epoxy and fg cloth butt splice to re-enforce that shaky scarf joint. Since it didn't rain, for once, the boat is still outside while that epoxy is curing. In fact, I'll be going out to put it back inside, right after I post this.

I also learned something today. I now now just exactly how my table saw adjust the blade up and down. This experience was NOT part of my plan for the day, but it did eat up about 2 hours while I figured out why the blade suddenly dropped out of sight. Now I know just what part to order so I can fix it. Some kind of clip that keeps the arm that moves the motor and blade housing in place. No idea where it got off to. . .

Well, that was my day. And of course, my "work week" starts tomorrow so I won't be messing with it until Tuesday. (Working 7P-7A, Fri, Sat, & Sun. Monday is when I re-set my sleep schedule to a daytime mode.)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

Getting everything to come into place correctly sounds a bit maddening, Mike, but his thing's going to be beautiful when it's all varnished and she hits the water.  That cypress has some beautiful grain in it....can't wait to see it with the finish on it!

[PetrifiedWood]

I agree, the details you posted will definitely help someone folowing along and building their own. I wonder if there is some sort of jig that could be built to hold your sander in the correct orientation to make a perfect bevel on the edge of the ply. I think if it were me I would have gone for the 8:1 ratio anyway amd let the boat be a little shorter than spec, just to be safe on the joint. But like you say, if it worked for the designer it will work for you.

And I think the staples plus the epoxy at the bow are just an added layer of strength. Cant go wrong with a little extra strength there.

[FlaMike]

I looked into it once, and there are indeed a number of DIY scarf jigs posted on the 'Net. And I really should have used one. I recall at least one that was very easy to build, too. A simple search on Google for "scarf jig," or "scarf jig plans" will turn up a lot of hits.

Before I have to do another one, I WILL make one. There are plans for scarf jigs that use a circular saw, a table saw, routers, belt saws and planes. The circular saw plans will be the one I'm looking for, I think.

If I find the one I'm thinking about, I'll post a like to it.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

Mike it looks great. You can tell your building the boat builders version. Mind is rum drinking redneck get it done and painted version. Can't wait to paddle with ya.

[FlaMike]

Well Ol' Buddy,

The way things have gone the last couple of days, I've NO idea when that might happen. Been off for three days now and its rained all day long, all three of them. The frustration level is REALLY up there.

 Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

I can feel your pain.

[FlaMike]

The idea of not getting anything done until next week does NOT sit well with me. But, since I put myself in the position of not having enough room to work inside, I am at the mercy of the weather.

On the Southern Paddler Forum, someone (an accomplished builder,) posted:

"I went back and looked at the other pictures and belive I see how the floor and sides meet. At the bow end where the sides start to curve up the floor is not in the same plane as the side? It will be nailed to the edge of the board, that has been planed to the same angle? The plywood will lay flat on the edge of the board? The board will be sitting on top of the plywood (not edge to edge), even in the up turned bow area?"

My reply:

I think you described it pretty well. That part was what I had some trouble understanding at first, and once I was sure about it, making it happen was pretty straight forward, but a bit of a challenge for me, as I've not done anything quite like it.

I hesitate to jinx myself, but even though it was raining when I woke up this morning, it looks like I may have some good working weather for at least a good chunk of the middle of the day. However much it is, I will make the most of it that I can.

I need to set it up on the sawhorses, right side up, so I can "true up" the sides and transom again. All the moving in and out wasn't good for it. That won't take but a few minutes. I'll have to remove the transom and plane the faces of it, as it was cut from a rough-cut plank. Then I can glue and nail it in place. Once done, the boat comes off the sawhorses, the "work bench" planks come off and the sides and transom go back on the sawhorses upside down and then I'll double check the bottom by putting it in place, make some alignment marks, and take it back off. Then I can finally lay on the glue and nail the bottom in place.

I can tell you right now, the next build will NOT be subject to that moving in and out. I prefer working outside, so I guess I'll set it up so the whole thing can be rolled in and out as a single unit.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Well, for once I was right about the rain! 

The rain started while I was having my morning coffee. But looking at the weather radar, it looked like a single band of rain, with nothing following behind it. And sure enough, around 11, I was able to get the boat outside and started working. I was able to keep going until just about dark.

First off, I did do some tweaking of the side panels, still trying to get them to somehow match the shape of the severely bent plywood at the bow.



That's my "fine tuning tool." Stop laughing! The darned thing works! 

The plan was to get it all lined up as closely as possible, then put on a layer of thin epoxy (slow hardener,) on the bottom of the plank sides, and another strip painted on the outer edges of the plywood. When the epoxy had kicked off and reached the seriously tacky stage, which it did, I then mixed up the thickened epoxy and applied it to the plank sides. I was lucky enough to have my wife help with this part. Once the epoxy has been mixed, you're pretty much committed to taking the next step! And once the clock starts ticking, it just runs faster and faster.

Then she was to help me place the plywood on top of the sides, so I could do the final positioning and start nailing it down. I still wasn't sure just how things would fit together at the bow, so I placed a couple of plastic-wrapped spacers near the "problem area" to make adjustments there easier.



Well, it sounded like a good plan to me. . . If you notice in the first picture in this post, those spindley-looking jigs (or mold frames) that I was using? Not particularly substantial, mostly held in place by a single, small finishing nail. Do  you think something BAD is about to happen?   

YES! Another "learning moment!" As we set the bottom in place on top of the sides, the very first movement to align the ply caused the whole thing to simply collapse, like a cheap card table in a high wind at a company picnic. My wife thought I just might explode, so she was getting ready to haul, uh. . . booty out of their, thinking that she didn't want to be within 50 meters of ground zero when I detonated. (She's nobody's dummy!)

But I figured I'd have time to have a hissy fit later. All I could think of was all that epoxy giving serious though to turning rock-hard solid. I reached under the mess and removed all the excess and now useless remains of my jigs, and lifted one side of the bottom up so we could stand a side plank on edge under it and then I lined up the back corner with the mark on the end of the plank and drove in a ring nail. I moved down the length of  that side, lining up the edges and putting in nails as fast as I could for about four feet. Then we lifted the other side of the ply and positioned the other plank under it, again matching the marks at the back corner, then lining up the edges again, pounding in nails as I went.

In a very short period of time, I had the sides nailed from the stern, all the way up to where the planks started their curve to meet the ply at the bow. I just kept working my way forward, nailing as fast as possible, spacing the nails twice as far apart as I would have under other circumstances, knowing that I'd be back "filling in the blanks" once I had the thing stable. As I moved into the problem area, I was surprised to find that it wasn't too hard to get the planks pushed in to meet the edge of the ply as it bent from being the bottom, to forming the bow.

The last foot got harder to do, but using one of those orange nylon straps you've seen in earlier pics, I was able to keep pulling the planks in to meet the ply. Last week, I was certain that I'd end up having to remove a couple of inches from the outside edges of the ply in order for the planks to fit at the bow. However, now all I'll have to do is a little trim here and there, just like fitting the bottom onto a pirogue.

How'd it turn out?



MUCH better than I thought it would.  This pic was taken right after I was ready to move it inside for the night. The transom is sticking up a little high, but that's because I cut it a little high so I could plane it down nice and even with the sides. Below, is a view looking towards the bow, of the inside. You can see where I ran the epoxy down much further than needed, thinking that side plank just might not end up where it was supposed to.



Below, two more pics of what I thought was going to be the "problem area," but I am quite pleased with how it came out:





Over all, I had a pretty good day.

On my next build, I WILL take the time to construct proper mold frames. I know how to do it, I've seen pics of seedtick's and other's on both Southern Paddler and JEM WaterCraft Forums. It ain't rocket science. And it's well worth the effort. I've got no excuse for not having done that.  On Southern Paddler, instead of "rocket science," it's known as "Boat Science," or just "B.S." for short.

Next week, (still have to work the weekend,) the seat and poling platform goes on, the rub rails, then the varnishing starts. Unless it rains the entire week, the boat will teaching me how to use it, the following week.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

Once again, I offer a hearty 'THANK YOU' for taking the time to photograph and chronicle the building of this skiff.  I've never seen the melding of plywood and natural wood done like this before and it shows your dedication to the thought process in dealing with the problems encountered along the way!  You da' MAN!

The next part of the build SHOULD be more enjoyable and less nerve-wracking, I suspect

[FlaMike]

Thanks, Wolfy!

I'm looking forward to the work that's left on this one. It is all pretty much simple and straight forward. No need to re-invent the wheel with any of it. And what's left goes a long way towards giving a boat it's "finished look."  The use of ply for the rub rails is unusual, but it is also one of the things that will give the skiff its signature look. The only part of what's left that is new territory to me is the all varnish approach. I'm more used to fiberglass cloth that's either painted or varnished, or when using marine ply, just a good paint job. But just varnish?

It looks to me like that is the way Glen Simmons finished his Glades Skiffs, so  that's what I'm going with. I do know one modern designer/builder that uses varnish to finish the inside of his boats and he really seems to like it. So, I do have reason to think it will work out just fine. The fact that the boat will be stored inside will make a big difference, too.

Every time I type "Glen Simmons," I have to stop myself from typing "Gene Simmons," instead. 

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

  Gene Simmons.....

[FlaMike]

More progress today, but not as much as I would have liked. This seems to be a re-occurring theme with me. But, what got done, turned out well. 

Spent quite a bit of time getting the transom in place. I suppose I should fess up and say "transoms." Seems this piece has only two sides that are parallel, the top and bottom, but they are both cut at an angle to make the transom lean out at the top. Both sides of the transom taper in towards the bottom, producing the flare of the sides. And both sides also are angled to match the sides of the boat that tapers in towards the stern.

I'm thinking that there were just too many angles for my brain to cope with.

To make a long story short, (why do we always say that after it's already too long?", I ended up making three transoms before I got one right.   

Once I had a "keeper," it got buttered up with epoxy and nailed into place. Then I took another look at the book, then at all the pictures I've collected of Glades Skiffs, and decided where the forward seat will go. This time, I'm happy to report, I measured it several times, and got it cut right the first time.  I haven't nailed it in place yet, I want to do that after it's been varnished. That way I can get good coverage on it, all the way around.

Then I spent some time sanding and planing the edges where the bottom and side planks come together. This is one job that the power plane got a work out. Lately, I'd been using a good, old-fashioned hand-powered block plane. That's one job I enjoy doing by hand.

Also completed today, was finishing wiring the stem together. I'd originally only wired it in four places and then epoxied the stem together. And it is that epoxy that will be keeping it together, the copper wire is actually there just so it will look right. Well, look right to me, anyway. As I've said, this is to be a "visual replica," and the copper wire was used by the builder who's instructions I'm following. Since I'm using fiberglass tape instead of mat, I'll have to do some sculpting with some "peanut butter thick" epoxy between the wires to get the glass tape to lay properly without any voids between the wires. (I know that will have to be done because I tried it without the filler today and had to remove the tape.) So that's one more job for tomorrow.

Not really much to show at the end of the day. But here's a look at the boat on it's side, first showing the inside:



And the other side:



The epoxy and fiberglass that cover the scarf joint in the bottom should more-or-less disappear when the boat is varnished. At least, that's what usually happens. . .

Couple of jobs lined up for tomorrow. One, there's a little bit of a gap on the inside in places, where the planks meet the bottom ply. Probably because I was off a little in planing the planks for the flare of the sides. Some thickened epoxy will take care of that. Also, I'll deal with that glass tape on the stem.

The other "big" item is cutting and fitting the gunnels. Remember, this design calls for them to be make out of plywood, rather than cypress stock. That's one thing that has me puzzled. Why plywood? There is a chance I'll be meeting up with a guy who might be able to solve that mystery for me, in a couple of weeks.

After that is done, then all that's left is applying a lot of varnish. While waiting for the coats to dry, I'll be able to get the poling platform done, and finish making the pole/stand-up paddle. That was intended for use on another pirogue, but I'll use it with the skiff until I can locate the right little cypress tree, and make a much more traditional pole out of it.

Still, I'm still looking at getting it completely finished this week, so I can get it out on the water for a try-out, next week. Been studying up on making and posting video's, so you can see for yourselves how my attempt at stand-up poling this narrow little boat works out!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

Looking good mike. Brave man videoing the poleing operation first time.

[wolfy]

Looking good mike. Brave man videoing the poleing operation first time.

That's what I thought, too!   I'm glad no one was around with a VHS recorder when I hopped into my old Grumman with my length of closet pole for the first, and QUITE a few successive, attempts

[FlaMike]

Sorry I missed doing an update yesterday. But at the end of the day, I just crashed! And stayed that way for a while.   

A post was made on the SouthernPaddler Forum that from looking at the two pics of the boat laying on it's side that it should be able to carry a lot of weight. And that carrying some weight up front should make standing in it a lot easier. Here is my reply to that, followed by the update:

From what all  I've read, you are right about it being something of a cargo hauler. I have nothing to go on as far as the actual carrying capacity, but I'll be finding out. And for certain, I'll be having some ballast up forward when I venture onto the poling platform! In all the pics of the boat available, no one has been using the platform.  The man with the pole us usually standing just aft of the mid-point. Well, one exception. Glen Simmons is depicted standing on the poling platform, pole in hand. But the boat is sitting in a field, a "photo-op," I guess. Narry a drop of water in sight.

Now, the update:

I don't know who said it, or why, but I have heard that, "Every day, you should do something that scares the h3// out of yourself!" (If you turn that "3" around and straighten up the two front-slashes, you'll have broken the secret code!) Well, today, that's exactly what I did. And this is what I mean:



I imagine most everyone on southernpaddler KNOWS what this is about. But for those who don't know, I wanted to do an "end-pour" of thickened epoxy, pretty much making a solid stem, which the boat doesn't actually have. I'm sure it would work without one, but for me, this is a safety item. I'll be off by myself, too many miles from anywhere, and I want to know that the bow will hold together. Besides, I might want to ram something!

So, with some help from my wife, who says her name is NOT Dementia, we stood it up on it's nose and filled that V with wood flour thickened epoxy. I'd done this once before, before the two bottom panels had been joined, but that pour was kind of anemic. So I tripled its size with this pour.

Once that epoxy set up, I was in a hurry to lay the boat back down. The wind was picking up and I was getting nervous! Once down, I used the same method to fill in a little gap on the inside, where the side planks met the bottom. (My bevel wasn't quite right.) Most of the time, this job is done with much thicker epoxy and is usually "piped in" using a plastic bag with a small hole in one corner, like a pastry bag. But I thought I'd try the "pour" technique. Worked out pretty good. Results below:



The pour is that brown line where the bottom and sides meet. Did this for both sides, and the bottom in the bow, where the hull has a sharp V shape. (That ties in with the first pour.) While this was curing, I went down the road to get some disk for the random orbital sander, and some chip brushes for the epoxy work. Figured I try a local hardware store to avoid a longer drive and more gas, going to the bigbox store. I'll tell you what I told the clerk when he asked if I found everything I needed. "Nope. I found what you had that I could make do with." Next time, its the bigbox store for me. Paid too much for what I got, and it was not what I really wanted.

Here's where it stands now:



Not where I thought I'd end the week! The gunnel on one side and across the transom is glued and nailed into place. The gunnel on the other side is clamped into place so I can place my marks, and the piece at the bow on the near side with the C-clamps holding it on is a piece of scrap I'm using to sort out just how I'm going to shape and attach that piece. Looks like I'm going to go a little off the reservation on this part. More along the lines of some conventional stitch and glue.

And, the other end:



I did get the glass tape on the bow, just need to sand it a bit and do another coat of epoxy:



One thing that makes it much easier to move the boat around is this:



Yes, I did get around to removing the old rope-ends, those originally tied to some more of those orange nylon straps, turns out the straps really weren't needed.

Looks like I was a week off on my "prediction" of having it finished and varnished this week, and in the water next week. I think I won't make any more predictions. Apparently, I'm no good at it! Besides, I'd much rather get it right, than get it done on an arbitrary schedule.

Thanks for tuning in! Friday starts my "work week" and I've got to put my time in so I can buy more food for this guy, and his whole fam damnly!



He was up for the supervisor rotation, today.   

Mike S.  <----- who has a tendency towards being a little wordy and post too many pictures.
Spring Hill, FL

[PetrifiedWood]

Wow, this build is moving right along!

I am glad to hear that your mishap ended up in a good save. I have never build a boat, but I have worked with epoxy a time or two, and I know that panicky feeling you get as it starts to stiffen up and you know the clock is running out on getting everything positioned right. I used to build model airplanes and there were a few times the epoxy was faster than I was and I had to cut things apart and start over.

Looks great so far!

[FlaMike]

PW,

Funny how different my perspective is. To me, it seems this build is taking forever. At least now I can see the end of it.

Funny also is that you mentioned building model airplanes. I used to build and fly R/C electric planes, including the outrunner electric motors. As peppy as any gas models their same size. The Frog was my favorite profile model, and a J3 Cub was my best "semi-scale" effort.

I got to thinking about just how to finish the forward gunnel on the skiff, having problems with the fitting over the plank end and the ply section, and I realized I still had some of the blue fan-fold foam. So, when I got home from work yesterday morning, I used a piece of it to make and shape a template that will get the job done.

That will get the finish of this boat build off to a good start Tuesday. (Monday I have to mow the yard.)

Learning how to work with one material in one hobby turned out to be useful in a completely different situation. Knowledge is always worth acquiring, it is seldom wasted.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Had a pretty good day, today. I used the templates I made from the fan-fold foam to cut out the last two pieces for the coaming:



Not wanting to find some copper nails and roves and learn how to clinch nail, I took the "easy" way out. Dry wall screws! These went through the two layers of ply and into a temporary backer block. Once the epoxy has cured, the screws and the blocks will be removed, and the holes filled with epoxy, thickened to peanut butter consistency. (That is how I fastened the sides to the stem when I built my Uncle John's Pirogue.) So, right now, it looks like this:



Now the gunnel has been fastened all the way around. While waiting for epoxy to set up, I put the "optional" poling platform together. It will have a little more work done on it in the morning, I'll be gluing some ply strips in between the cross-braces, on the underside of the platform, to help stiffen up the 1/4" plywood. (Stood on it, it NEEDS it.) Here it is, in place.



The seat is also sitting in place. Since it is acting as a thwart, spreading the sides a bit, it will get glued and nailed down. But not until the boat has been in the water, as I may want to adjust its position. The poling platform will not be nailed in place. I want to be able to remove it, or possibly shorten it, after I've tried it out.

Just two more pics, then I'll end this update. The "nearly done" skiff from the side, shot thru a light coating of sawdust on the lens:



And another view:



Tomorrow morning, I'll add some corner braces at the transom and do some fairing with epoxy/wood-flour where needed. After that, the final sanding begins, getting ready for varnishing. While waiting for coats of varnish to dry, I'll be finishing up the push pole/paddle. If I have time, I'd like to make my first cypress paddle. If I don't have time, I'll make the time first, then the paddle!

Getting there! 

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

This has turned out to be a LOT more involved than I thought it would! .   I admire your ability to solve problems as they arise! 

[FlaMike]

To tell the truth, it was a lot more "involved" than I thought it would be. But, I made it that way. If I wanted to build a boat that was like a Glades Skiff, it could have been done much faster and easier. But I chose to build one that would be a "visual replica" of the boats built by possibly  the last of the Glades Skiff builders, Glen Simmons.

It really doesn't have to be that way, but it is what I wanted to do.

For someone who wants to build a reasonably authentic "folk' boat, I can highly recommend the pirogue plans sold by Uncle John's. It is an easy build, inexpensive (unless you choose otherwise,) and does capture the look, feel, and function of a Louisiana pirogue. Another option would be a canoe or kayak, built from the free plans on the JEMWatercraft web site. Build either of those and you would be ready for any one of Matt's other designs that he sells on his web site. He usually advises that people build one of the two free plans before buying any of his plans, if the would-be builder has no prior boat building experience.

As I stated elsewhere, I've built an Uncle John's pirogue, now this Glades Skiff, and I still have three more boat building projects to go. And each will be different, in both design and building method. So each in it's own way will be something of a challenge. Otherwise, I doubt I'd be building them.

I do thank you for you interest in this project, by the way.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Talking about finding solutions to problems as they come up, Helen Van Wyk, whom I studied to learn how to oil paint, said that a painting was a record of a series of corrections to mistakes that were made. Sometimes, that is also true when building a boat.

As near as I can tell, today was the last day of actual building on this one. Seemed at times that I would never get this far. Just so you know, the last parts to be made and placed were the pair of braces at the top of the transom. Probably not even needed, but they are there, now. I won't even be thinking about any sort of motor, so I doubt the extra strength is really needed.  But they were mentioned in the book, so I put them in. Here they are, waiting for the epoxy to cure:



Today's "scary" part was removing the screws that temporarily held those sections of the gunnel that went on last, up at the bow end. They were under a lot of tension after being bent into place! Once I got them on, I let them sit overnight to get a good cure on the epoxy. My nightmare was removing those screws and seeing both pieces springing back straight again.

Of course, it didn't happen. Once the screws were out, I did a little sanding on the hull, then mixed up some thick epoxy and filled the screw holes, along with a few other "little gaps"  here and there.

I also put some plywood "backer plates" on the underside of the poling platform. I'm thinking they will help keep the platform from being too much like a trampoline. . . After all, it is just 1/4" plywood. I was running short of left-over ply to make the platform, so there is a seam running down the middle of it. The plates I installed cover that seam on the underside, so that part of the platform is now 1/2" thick. I used some tools to weigh the plates down during the gluing and then a potential problem cropped up:



If the little guy can't get up after the epoxy cures, I guess my boat will have a feline hood ornament on the poling platform!

That little cat doesn't mind being around power tools running for the most part, hammering and nailing doesn't bother him either. But when I started using the random orbital sander on the bottom of the boat, the boat hull kind of acts like a giant speaker. That did wake him up and he looked around, got up, and walked off. So I guess I don't have a permanent crew member, after all. Just as well, he would have been stuck to the wrong side of the platform to act as a lookout or hood ornament, anyway.

NOT predicting, but "just sayin'," tomorrow I should be spending a little time in the morning sanding, inside and out. The rest of the day should be dedicated to laying on varnish. Most of the shaping of the push pole got done today, so should be able to finish it in between coats of varnish.

The next pictures I post will be of the boat done and at least a couple of coats of varnish on it. After that, I should be posting pics of the boat in the water, along with a video of me trying out the poling platform. (Or a video of me swimming along side the boat.)   

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[Moe M.]

  You may have posted it somewhere but I didn't see it,  what are the dimensions of your skiff ?

[wolfy]

I wan'na see the design of the 'foot' on your push pole, please. .  Mine looks a little like a pole attached to the western border of Idaho.

[FlaMike]

Moe,

The length is right at 15'6". The beam at it's widest is only about 28" and that is up near the bow. The transom is only about 22". The depth of the hull is on average, 11 1/4", including the gunnel that stands up a little higher than the sides. Some time tomorrow, I'll try to get a weight on it.

Wolfy,

The push pole I'm talking about in this thread is one that was originally intended for use in a pirogue. And it is a combination, stand-up paddle and push pole. I'll get a pic to post, tomorrow. The pole I will be getting later on is exactly what the old skiffers used, a young cypress, cut off just below where the tree spreads out into it's characteristic flared trunk.

Here is a picture of Glen Simmons holding the end of a cypress push pole:



As you can see, the wide end that was the trunk has been planed down from a cone shape, into a flatted out sort of blade. And it looks to have had a V notched into the end. Some of the pictures on the web show those poles in use and they seem to run from 14 to 16 feet long. In the Everglades proper, there's no overhead branches to worry about. In the swamps, the poles are usually shorter, 10 to 12 feet being more common.

I will be looking to harvest my own pole at the earliest opportunity. SwampHanger says he knows where some should be available. Meanwhile, I'll be keeping my eyes open.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

Thanks, Mike!  Looks like the tail of a fish

[FlaMike]

Sorry! I forgot to take a pic of that push pole. I will take one and get it posted, soon. 

As far as I'm concerned, the Glades Skiff, is built.    Nothing left but the finish, and that's how I spent my day.

Sanding and varnishing. Just got the first coat on today, and as usual, the rest will have to wait until my next set of days off. When I get this part done, I'll post a pic of the finished skiff.

In the mean time, I did finally "get my kit together."   

By that, I mean a mess kit. All DIY. I just posted some pics of it in the DIY Gear section.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[FlaMike]

Wolfy,

You asked and I promised, so here it is:



With a shorter "blade," it would be a push pole. But leaving it longer its also a stand-up paddle. Shot inside the bowels of my deep, dark garage, this afternoon.

Oh, I also was able to weigh the Skiff! And I'm quite surprised, I thought it would be much heavier.
With the seat in place and the poling platform, it weighs only 70 lbs. 

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[wolfy]

Heck, that's LIGHT.....I never would have guessed it to be that light!    Just guessin' from 1200 miles away, I'd have thought 90-100# would be more like it......COOL

I like you pole foot/blade, too......that'd work in the mud/sand bottoms I pole through, I'll bet.

[FlaMike]

The apparent lightness of the boat got to bothering me. The bathroom scales gave my weight as being lower than it should have been, so I double checked it by weighing myself at work on some very accurate scales. And the weight I got a home was way off. I also realized that the home scales had acted a little erratically, probably due to a dying battery. So, I replaced the battery and got about the same weight on myself that I got at work.

Re-weighed the boat and it now looks more like 85 pounds. Not as much as I'd feared, but still not bad at all.

Unfortunately, I still have to figure out how to tell my wife about how her scales have been lying to her!  Might just keep that little secret to myself. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

[SwampHanger]

You'll be living in your hammock sooner than later and trying out your mess kit if you do! Lol