Author Topic: "Twilight Zone" paranormal - supernatural - unexplained thread *special rules*  (Read 119535 times)

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Offline Moe M.

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   Reminds me of the old saw,   "We",  do you have a mouse in your pocket" ?   :lol:

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..on my ignore list...
lol

   Said I was ignoring you,  didn't say I was running on mute.    :taunt:
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Offline weedeater64

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   Reminds me of the old saw,   "We",  do you have a mouse in your pocket" ?   :lol:

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..on my ignore list...
lol

   Said I was ignoring you,  didn't say I was running on mute.    :taunt:

I'm curious. How does one respond to something they've ignored.
It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Offline Old Philosopher

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would you ask me to go get the name of the film manufacturer

Yes, again because you are the one bringing it to the table here.

Is that a joke?

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I don't feel the need to try to persuade you of anything

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That is exactly what you are doing by perpetuating these hoaxes here.

Not true. Presenting a topic that may be controversial is quite different from trying to convince people to believe the voracity of that topic.



One thing I've noticed in discussions like these.  One side presents an article from Wikipedia in support of their view. The opposing view dismisses the Wiki article, saying it's public domain, and anyone can edit the article to include all sorts of deluded fantasies.  There is a teacher in our local high school who will not allow students to use Wikipedia as a research tool, because that's what he believes.
But when they find an article that is bias in their favor they are the first ones to rely upon Wikipedia as an 'authority'. I never did get that....
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Offline weedeater64

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would you ask me to go get the name of the film manufacturer

Yes, again because you are the one bringing it to the table here.

Is that a joke?

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I don't feel the need to try to persuade you of anything

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That is exactly what you are doing by perpetuating these hoaxes here.

Not true. Presenting a topic that may be controversial is quite different from trying to convince people to believe the voracity of that topic.

There is an awful lot of stuff that is out there that is being kept from the Gen. Public. Including Giant skeletons and elongated skull manlike creatures that lived long ago..

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One thing I've noticed in discussions like these.  One side presents an article from Wikipedia in support of their view. The opposing view dismisses the Wiki article, saying it's public domain, and anyone can edit the article to include all sorts of deluded fantasies.  There is a teacher in our local high school who will not allow students to use Wikipedia as a research tool, because that's what he believes.
But when they find an article that is bias in their favor they are the first ones to rely upon Wikipedia as an 'authority'. I never did get that....

Anyone can edit Wikipedia, true. Bogus edits tend to get changed back, in general. Wikipedia is a decent enough starting point, but it is a good idea to follow the sources, as I did above, or seek confirmation elsewhere.
It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Offline Old Philosopher

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Anyone can edit Wikipedia, true. Bogus edits tend to get changed back, in general. Wikipedia is a decent enough starting point, but it is a good idea to follow the sources, as I did above, or seek confirmation elsewhere.
I wish everyone used it that way.
The 'net is a very powerful tool for research. But it's both paradoxical, and frustrating.
Just about any topic you can imagine has a plethora of both pro and con proponents. For every article, blog, journal you find that says, "This is so." there will be another 'authority' who says, "No, it's not!"
That's where discernment and an open mind comes into play.  Too many people these days don't question what they hear, or read, pro or con. And it seems that most 'authorities' are simply touting their own agendas.
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Online zammer

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We had mulled that possibility over but the bird would have been the size of a Eagle or bigger to be seen that far away.
"big fish like to live in bad places, that's how they get to be big fish"

Offline Old Philosopher

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We had mulled that possibility over but the bird would have been the size of a Eagle or bigger to be seen that far away.
I did once see a flight of snow geese at an insane altitude over southern Idaho. A few years later there was a photo of UFOs in the sky, and a very large number of folks were yelling, "Yes! Yes!". I looked at the picture and laughed. Been there, done that.

Large bird, huh? Well, at that distance maybe it was a Thunderbird. Now that opens a whole new can o' worms.

http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa100801a.htm

Keep watching for the second video.

http://www.history.com/videos/monsterquest-giant-bird-footage#thunderbird-explained
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Online zammer

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Large bird, huh? Well, at that distance maybe it was a Thunderbird. Now that opens a whole new can o' worms.

Well, I'm just trying to say the bird would be much bigger than a finch like bird....perhaps it was the thought to be extinct giant yellow Condor  :shrug:
"big fish like to live in bad places, that's how they get to be big fish"

Offline weedeater64

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We had mulled that possibility over but the bird would have been the size of a Eagle or bigger to be seen that far away.

And you determined the distance, how exactly.
It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Offline Professor

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My friend, Art, is a locally recognised master of the ghost story. Here awhile back he spun this one:

Art and his brothers grew up in a house along a long lane that ended at the town cemetery.  Just where the lane joins the main highway through town is a big, old crumbling mansion of a house that was once the home of the wealthiest man in town.

Wealth does strange things to people, and soon Abner Lamis was keeping company with the new woman in town, who was the age of his daughters.  Within a month, they left town together!

His wife of thirty years was crushed, but maintained the hope that her husband would come back.

He didn't; and the wife died within the year of a broken heart.

On nights with a full moon, Art and his brothers would walk by the house and see her sitting in a rocking chair by the that big upstairs window, wearing a white gown, watching the highway for Abner to return.  Other times, they would see just the rocking chair still moving to and fro, as if she had just left it moments before.
...and I'll see you soon!

Offline Professor

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When I was a kid, there was a series of short spots on WCAZ called "Strangest of All."  I hadn't thought of it in years, and when I read your posts about UFOs and birds I was reminded of the program and its narrator, Frank Edwards.

Do any of you remember this program or any of the stories?

I found this just now:

ter" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Edwards_(writer_and_broadcas ter)
...and I'll see you soon!

Offline MnSportsman

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My friend, Art, is a locally recognised master of the ghost story. Here awhile back he spun this one:

Art and his brothers grew up in a house along a long lane that ended at the town cemetery.  Just where the lane joins the main highway through town is a big, old crumbling mansion of a house that was once the home of the wealthiest man in town.

Wealth does strange things to people, and soon Abner Lamis was keeping company with the new woman in town, who was the age of his daughters.  Within a month, they left town together!

His wife of thirty years was crushed, but maintained the hope that her husband would come back.

He didn't; and the wife died within the year of a broken heart.

On nights with a full moon, Art and his brothers would walk by the house and see her sitting in a rocking chair by the that big upstairs window, wearing a white gown, watching the highway for Abner to return.  Other times, they would see just the rocking chair still moving to and fro, as if she had just left it moments before.


  Nice story Professor!
 :thumbsup:


  I am a bit concerned for you though....


      I hope no one decides that you need to back it up with documentation as follows.... a list of sources (who is Art?), proof that there is a rocking chair(untouched photo) & an actual house that existed( tax rolls), that the man who left with the young lady was wealthy( verified, notarized bank statements), and actually existed himself( birth certificate), that the woman whom the man Abner left town with, was in fact young( birth certificate), That they actually left town ( notarized eyewitness accounts), that the wealthy man & the woman who was left alone were really married( marriage certificate),  and that the woman truly died of a broken heart ( death certificate)..


    And after you verify all of those probably hoaxed items, perhaps we can actually believe you & the story you just told. Without them, you are just telling another made up ghost story & who wants to hear them anyway? And of course, it is up to YOU & not Art, from whom you heard the story, to  have that info. Your ghost story is a sham if you decide not to provide it. A person should ask YOU to provide that documentation , not the one who actually told the story to you, and you should know that before you posted the story. Otherwise you are perpetrating a hoax, a sham & a tall-tale... & shame on you for doing so, since you know there are rules according to some folks , that you have to provide such information upon request to anyone who reads or listens to your story... Other wise it is just some bunk... & you are creating an issue of monstrous proportions to all of mankind for doing that very thing..Oh, the tragedy of it all...
 ;D


   Professor,
     I hope you understand I am joshing with ya,  as I am making fun of some folks who think everything has to have a crap load of information provided to them, just to make something true or believable for their benefit.




 Once again, Great story, & thanks for providing it!
 :D
I love being out in the woods!   I like this quote from Mors Kochanski - "The more you know, the less you carry". I believe in the same creed, & think  "Knowledge & honed skills" are the best things to carry with ya when you're out in the wilds. They're the ultimate "ultralight" gear! ;)

Online zammer

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We had mulled that possibility over but the bird would have been the size of a Eagle or bigger to be seen that far away.
And you determined the distance, how exactly.

Unfortunately there is no exact determination of anything....its all guess-timates based on my knowledge ( and that of others ) who are familiar with the area and with photography.



"big fish like to live in bad places, that's how they get to be big fish"

Offline Professor

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Well, Mn, there are always those who want documentation, so here's the rest of the story:

A while back, Art's brother Carl and his wife Wanda were in town visiting.  Art and Carl were talking about this story and even mentioned that Life magazine had published an article about it back in the '50s.

The next week, Carl and Wanda were in an antique store and she found a whole stack of Life magazines.  She asked Carl what the date of the issue describing the "rocking chair ghost" was.

Carl just laughed and told her that Art had just made the entire story up!  There was a rocking chair in view in an upstairs window of an old house; there the truth ended and Art's imagination and story telling began!

Next, I'll tell you about the Ghostly Lanterns in the Cemetery at the End of the Road...
...and I'll see you soon!

Offline Moe M.

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   Reminds me of the old saw,   "We",  do you have a mouse in your pocket" ?   :lol:

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..on my ignore list...
lol

   Said I was ignoring you,  didn't say I was running on mute.    :taunt:

I'm curious. How does one respond to something they've ignored.

   LOL,  It's not that difficult,  really. 

   Just be selective in what one chooses to ignor,  type a few words and punch the post button.      :shrug:
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline Old Philosopher

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   LOL,  It's not that difficult,  really. 

   Just be selective in what one chooses to ignor,  type a few words and punch the post button.      :shrug:
Etymologically speaking, it's interesting to note that "ignore" and "ignorance" are rooted in the same Latin word.


...
Carl just laughed and told her that Art had just made the entire story up!  There was a rocking chair in view in an upstairs window of an old house; there the truth ended and Art's imagination and story telling began!

Next, I'll tell you about the Ghostly Lanterns in the Cemetery at the End of the Road...
"Ghost stories" are fun around any campfire, but I'd like to hear first hand accounts of someone's personal "encounters".
 :fire1:
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline crashdive123

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   LOL,  It's not that difficult,  really. 

   Just be selective in what one chooses to ignor,  type a few words and punch the post button.      :shrug:
Etymologically speaking, it's interesting to note that "ignore" and "ignorance" are rooted in the same Latin word.


...
Carl just laughed and told her that Art had just made the entire story up!  There was a rocking chair in view in an upstairs window of an old house; there the truth ended and Art's imagination and story telling began!

Next, I'll tell you about the Ghostly Lanterns in the Cemetery at the End of the Road...
"Ghost stories" are fun around any campfire, but I'd like to hear first hand accounts of someone's personal "encounters".
 :fire1:

I believe in "the other side" (any John Edward fans out there?).  I believe that our loved ones that have passed on are waiting for us.

Here's a recent experience that just enforces my belief.  This past summer we moved my MIL in with us.  She had terminal cancer.  After testing by Mayo Clinic confirmed what we already suspected we started home hospice care for her.

In the volumes of information that the home hospice folks provided (they were fantastic btw) there was a passage that read something like....near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate, claiming to see relatives that have passed.

OK

Toward the end, my MIL recounted that earlier in the day she had a visit from her Mom and that they talked for quite a while.  I understand that there is no scientific explanation, and why the information provided called it hallucinating.

There is no doubt in my mind that she had a visit from the other side.  Call it belief, faith, or something that can't be explained.  I am comfortable with my belief of what it was.

Offline Old Philosopher

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Thanks, CD. I'd like to comment when I have more time. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline weedeater64

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I believe in "the other side" (any John Edward fans out there?).  I believe that our loved ones that have passed on are waiting for us.

In the volumes of information that the home hospice folks provided (they were fantastic btw) there was a passage that read something like....near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate, claiming to see relatives that have passed.

Toward the end, my MIL recounted that earlier in the day she had a visit from her Mom and that they talked for quite a while.  I understand that there is no scientific explanation, and why the information provided called it hallucinating.

There is no doubt in my mind that she had a visit from the other side.  Call it belief, faith, or something that can't be explained.  I am comfortable with my belief of what it was.

Except that it can be explained, you just said so your self. It was explained to you by the literature they gave you, ie.. "near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate"

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Neuroscientist's are thoroughly convinced that near death experiences are things that happen when normal brain function is disrupted and the brain is shutting down.... dementia..

She was basically drunk/high as a kite. Nothing more, nothing less.

Given the way bogus ancient superstitions have stunted scientific advancement/understanding for so much of human history, yet science has overcome, and explained so much of what was previously attributed to magic an other assorted nonsense (including various causes hallucinations), to say that such things can not be explained is at best ignorant.

You may not be aware of just how much science has been advancing in recent years. They are getting a pretty decent handle on the brain, they can now see neurons firing.



It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Online zammer

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I believe in "the other side" (any John Edward fans out there?).  I believe that our loved ones that have passed on are waiting for us.

In the volumes of information that the home hospice folks provided (they were fantastic btw) there was a passage that read something like....near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate, claiming to see relatives that have passed.

Toward the end, my MIL recounted that earlier in the day she had a visit from her Mom and that they talked for quite a while.  I understand that there is no scientific explanation, and why the information provided called it hallucinating.

There is no doubt in my mind that she had a visit from the other side.  Call it belief, faith, or something that can't be explained.  I am comfortable with my belief of what it was.

Except that it can be explained, you just said so your self. It was explained to you by the literature they gave you, ie.. "near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate"

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Neuroscientist's are thoroughly convinced that near death experiences are things that happen when normal brain function is disrupted and the brain is shutting down.... dementia..

She was basically drunk/high as a kite. Nothing more, nothing less.


Its apparent that you believe "Science" has the answer for everything weedeater, and yet "Science" hasn't quite figured out how to help
people like you show a little TACT when replying to someone who has just shared a very personal story.... :shrug:
"big fish like to live in bad places, that's how they get to be big fish"

Offline weedeater64

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Its apparent that you believe "Science" has the answer for everything

Not at all. It has however, and continues to, consistently explain what superstition/myth/fear/religion/irrationality/naivet?/magical-thinking/hokum/... et al.. never did. Ever.

There will likely always be things unexplained, and that is OK. IMHO though, it is not OK to attribute them to magic or other silliness without reason.


 
It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Online wolfy

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Why not? :shrug:
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Offline woodsrunner

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yeah!...why not? :shrug:
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Offline woodsrunner

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seems to me science is real good at showing the how...but comes up short on the why... ;)
'At play in the fields of the Lord'
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Offline weedeater64

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Why not? :shrug:

Crusades, spanish inquisitions, human sacrifice, faith healing (ie.. murder), failure to advance humanity, failure to advance medicine, failure to advance anything,...
It is time to refuse to tiptoe around people who claim respect, consideration, special treatment, on the grounds that they have a religious faith, as if having faith were a privilege endowing virtue, as if it were noble to believe in unsupported claims and ancient superstitions. - A.C. Grayling

Offline woodsrunner

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Why not? :shrug:

Crusades, spanish inquisitions, human sacrifice, faith healing (ie.. murder), failure to advance humanity, failure to advance medicine, failure to advance anything,...
yup!...yer gonna have a few of them unfortunate happenings in a fallen world...crimes perpetuated by men against other men who, relying on thier own understanding of who God is and how things should be according to thier own limited experience...woods 
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Save a Logger...Eat a Tree Hugger!

Offline woodsrunner

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oh crap!...,i used the G word.....sorry mods 8)...woods
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Offline kanukkarhu

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Why not? :shrug:

Crusades, spanish inquisitions, human sacrifice, faith healing (ie.. murder), failure to advance humanity, failure to advance medicine, failure to advance anything,...
Feel free not to answer this question (but I know you won't pass the opportunity up), and rest assured I mean no offence, but posts like this - and you have a lot of them - are very hard for some folks not to take personally.  I'd like to know if you try to sound antagonistic and offensive, or do you just enjoy tearing other people down? You seem to me, to be far more zealous in tearing down things many people have a legitimate right to believe in than they are in a) tearing down you, and/or b) pushing their beliefs on you. By acting this way, you don't allow others the freedom to speak without you being rude about it. In other words, you are acting more than decidedly troll-ish, and I think you should stop and cut us all some slack from this, regardless of why you're so hurtful about people having some kind of supernatural belief.

Hey, believe what you like, but not at the expense of others.
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline kanukkarhu

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Ooops.
What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline Moe M.

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  To some people the thought that there may be things in this life that haven't been explained or that maybe can't be explained,  such as a Supreme Being,  an after life,  intelligent design,  creatures that inhabit our world in the oceans or in the most remote places in the wilderness,  is very frightening.
  Science has made great strides in medicine, energy, communications technology, and in the trappings that we all pretty much take for granted,  science has cured Polio, eradicated many illnesses that at one time were unknown and fatal,  it's taken us to the great depths of the oceans and to the moon and back.
  But science is not infallible,  some of the "cures" that it has given us have also caused us more serious problems,  Thalidomide is a good example,  how many babies were still born or deformed beyond repair, science also gave us weapons of mass destruction that most of us still can't fathom the depth of there power to do evil.
  Science has also been corrupted at times,  it has invented problems to solve just to keep grant money flowing into it's coffers,  it has made claims it knows are not true,  and it has at times covered up it's mistakes by outright lies,  we need to look no further than the Global Warming lies that science has tried to pull in recent years claiming that it was man made,  and that it can be controlled,  which it isn't and that it can't,  yet there are some fools who are willing invest trillions of dollars and change their lives drastically with the belief that they can in fact beat Mother Nature and control the environment and the weather.
  We must not forget that science is not some great intellectual power that opporates on a higher plane than humman,  it has the same flaws and frailties as mere humans,  for after all men of science are  only human,  they bring with them their own bias, their own agendas,  their own drives to achieve at all cost, they are not altruistic.
  Yet,  some people would rather put all of their trust in the words and power of science because they are too intimidated and fearful at the thought that they may be vulnerable to forces that can't be explained or physically guarded against.
  Too entertain the belief that there is a God one has to accept that there is a Devil,  Heaven and Hell becomes a problem,  it means that one really doesn't have complete power over his/her life,  it means that if the rules are not followed,  there will be an accounting that one has no defense against,  because that power knows your deepest secrets.
  To think that there may be creatures such as Bigfoot,  such as spirits of the dead,  shape changers, werewolves and the like,  while quite unlikely is just too much for some to accept, just too scary,  so those most affected by the fear feel obligated to lash out at the mention of these things and to attack those who discuss them as being naive, ignorant, stupid,  or just plain nuts.
  What I find most comical in these discussions about skeptics that are so outspoken against the possibilities is that there is no way to prove a negative,  who can prove there is no God,  who can prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist,  who can prove that Ghosts are not real,  no one can, there is no physical evidence to prove that they don't exist.
  But there is a lot of evidence that the wonders of nature could not have all been caused by accident or evolution without Intelligent design,  we have written accounts that God exist in the bible and other Holy Books and Scrolls,  we have eye witness accounts from people who have seen  Creatures that have not yet been found and identified,  we have heard stories about the paranormal from folks who have experienced it first hand.
  Sure, we can say we don't believe these things,  but we can't prove they don't exist,  and until a skeptic can show physical proof that these things don't exist they are just espousing their personal opinions and no more or less than that.

 
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Offline kanukkarhu

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:lol: A joke, people!



What if you woke up today, with only the things you thanked God for yesterday?

Offline Old Philosopher

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  To some people the thought that there may be things in this life that haven't been explained or that maybe can't be explained,  such as a Supreme Being,  an after life,  intelligent design,  creatures that inhabit our world in the oceans or in the most remote places in the wilderness,  is very frightening.
  Science has made great strides in medicine, energy, communications technology, and in the trappings that we all pretty much take for granted,  science has cured Polio, eradicated many illnesses that at one time were unknown and fatal,  it's taken us to the great depths of the oceans and to the moon and back.
  But science is not infallible,  some of the "cures" that it has given us have also caused us more serious problems,  Thalidomide is a good example,  how many babies were still born or deformed beyond repair, science also gave us weapons of mass destruction that most of us still can't fathom the depth of there power to do evil.
  Science has also been corrupted at times,  it has invented problems to solve just to keep grant money flowing into it's coffers,  it has made claims it knows are not true,  and it has at times covered up it's mistakes by outright lies,  we need to look no further than the Global Warming lies that science has tried to pull in recent years claiming that it was man made,  and that it can be controlled,  which it isn't and that it can't,  yet there are some fools who are willing invest trillions of dollars and change their lives drastically with the belief that they can in fact beat Mother Nature and control the environment and the weather.
  We must not forget that science is not some great intellectual power that opporates on a higher plane than humman,  it has the same flaws and frailties as mere humans,  for after all men of science are  only human,  they bring with them their own bias, their own agendas,  their own drives to achieve at all cost, they are not altruistic.
  Yet,  some people would rather put all of their trust in the words and power of science because they are too intimidated and fearful at the thought that they may be vulnerable to forces that can't be explained or physically guarded against.
  Too entertain the belief that there is a God one has to accept that there is a Devil,  Heaven and Hell becomes a problem,  it means that one really doesn't have complete power over his/her life,  it means that if the rules are not followed,  there will be an accounting that one has no defense against,  because that power knows your deepest secrets.
  To think that there may be creatures such as Bigfoot,  such as spirits of the dead,  shape changers, werewolves and the like,  while quite unlikely is just too much for some to accept, just too scary,  so those most affected by the fear feel obligated to lash out at the mention of these things and to attack those who discuss them as being naive, ignorant, stupid,  or just plain nuts.
  What I find most comical in these discussions about skeptics that are so outspoken against the possibilities is that there is no way to prove a negative,  who can prove there is no God,  who can prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist,  who can prove that Ghosts are not real,  no one can, there is no physical evidence to prove that they don't exist.
  But there is a lot of evidence that the wonders of nature could not have all been caused by accident or evolution without Intelligent design,  we have written accounts that God exist in the bible and other Holy Books and Scrolls,  we have eye witness accounts from people who have seen  Creatures that have not yet been found and identified,  we have heard stories about the paranormal from folks who have experienced it first hand.
  Sure, we can say we don't believe these things,  but we can't prove they don't exist,  and until a skeptic can show physical proof that these things don't exist they are just espousing their personal opinions and no more or less than that.

 
QFT! Excellent post, Moe.

This first paragraph sums it up, IMO.

Quote
  To some people the thought that there may be things in this life that haven't been explained or that maybe can't be explained,  such as a Supreme Being,  an after life,  intelligent design,  creatures that inhabit our world in the oceans or in the most remote places in the wilderness,  is very frightening.
Like scared little rabbits, hiding in a mental box, protected by gizmos and gadgets and assurance by "scientists" that their fears are baseless.

Doesn't matter if it's an alien presence, cryptids, or spirits. It reminds me of the character in "Rose Red" who, when faced with an apparition would close his eyes and repeat, "Not there! Not there!" to dispel his fears.

I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.

Offline Moe M.

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  To some people the thought that there may be things in this life that haven't been explained or that maybe can't be explained,  such as a Supreme Being,  an after life,  intelligent design,  creatures that inhabit our world in the oceans or in the most remote places in the wilderness,  is very frightening.
  Science has made great strides in medicine, energy, communications technology, and in the trappings that we all pretty much take for granted,  science has cured Polio, eradicated many illnesses that at one time were unknown and fatal,  it's taken us to the great depths of the oceans and to the moon and back.
  But science is not infallible,  some of the "cures" that it has given us have also caused us more serious problems,  Thalidomide is a good example,  how many babies were still born or deformed beyond repair, science also gave us weapons of mass destruction that most of us still can't fathom the depth of there power to do evil.
  Science has also been corrupted at times,  it has invented problems to solve just to keep grant money flowing into it's coffers,  it has made claims it knows are not true,  and it has at times covered up it's mistakes by outright lies,  we need to look no further than the Global Warming lies that science has tried to pull in recent years claiming that it was man made,  and that it can be controlled,  which it isn't and that it can't,  yet there are some fools who are willing invest trillions of dollars and change their lives drastically with the belief that they can in fact beat Mother Nature and control the environment and the weather.
  We must not forget that science is not some great intellectual power that opporates on a higher plane than humman,  it has the same flaws and frailties as mere humans,  for after all men of science are  only human,  they bring with them their own bias, their own agendas,  their own drives to achieve at all cost, they are not altruistic.
  Yet,  some people would rather put all of their trust in the words and power of science because they are too intimidated and fearful at the thought that they may be vulnerable to forces that can't be explained or physically guarded against.
  Too entertain the belief that there is a God one has to accept that there is a Devil,  Heaven and Hell becomes a problem,  it means that one really doesn't have complete power over his/her life,  it means that if the rules are not followed,  there will be an accounting that one has no defense against,  because that power knows your deepest secrets.
  To think that there may be creatures such as Bigfoot,  such as spirits of the dead,  shape changers, werewolves and the like,  while quite unlikely is just too much for some to accept, just too scary,  so those most affected by the fear feel obligated to lash out at the mention of these things and to attack those who discuss them as being naive, ignorant, stupid,  or just plain nuts.
  What I find most comical in these discussions about skeptics that are so outspoken against the possibilities is that there is no way to prove a negative,  who can prove there is no God,  who can prove that Bigfoot doesn't exist,  who can prove that Ghosts are not real,  no one can, there is no physical evidence to prove that they don't exist.
  But there is a lot of evidence that the wonders of nature could not have all been caused by accident or evolution without Intelligent design,  we have written accounts that God exist in the bible and other Holy Books and Scrolls,  we have eye witness accounts from people who have seen  Creatures that have not yet been found and identified,  we have heard stories about the paranormal from folks who have experienced it first hand.
  Sure, we can say we don't believe these things,  but we can't prove they don't exist,  and until a skeptic can show physical proof that these things don't exist they are just espousing their personal opinions and no more or less than that.

 
QFT! Excellent post, Moe.

This first paragraph sums it up, IMO.

Quote
  To some people the thought that there may be things in this life that haven't been explained or that maybe can't be explained,  such as a Supreme Being,  an after life,  intelligent design,  creatures that inhabit our world in the oceans or in the most remote places in the wilderness,  is very frightening.
Like scared little rabbits, hiding in a mental box, protected by gizmos and gadgets and assurance by "scientists" that their fears are baseless.

Doesn't matter if it's an alien presence, cryptids, or spirits. It reminds me of the character in "Rose Red" who, when faced with an apparition would close his eyes and repeat, "Not there! Not there!" to dispel his fears.

  'Zactly,  Man usually fears and reacts most passionately and violently against that which he does not know but feels threatened by than he does against a threat that he can identify,  ask any man who is spending his first night alone in the big woods,  everything beyond his fire is a threat,  his biggest enemy is his imagination,  every little sound is either a giant bear,  or maybe something much worse......... :tent:
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Its apparent that you believe "Science" has the answer for everything

Not at all. It has however, and continues to, consistently explain what superstition/myth/fear/religion/irrationality/naivet?/magical-thinking/hokum/... et al.. never did. Ever.

There will likely always be things unexplained, and that is OK. IMHO though, it is not OK to attribute them to magic or other silliness without reason.

I could care less about your beliefs or lack there of Weedeater, so how bout answering the actual question, why can't you show a little tact? ......not enough hugs as a child?
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Offline Moe M.

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  Lets all try to remember who we are here at B&B,  It's all too easy to get drawn into arguments that cause us to unintentionally lower ourselves to the level of our antagonist,  we're usually above that kind of thing,  we can defend our positions without personal insults.
  One thing to remember is that in these types of discussions you don't have to prove you're right,  you are in the vast majority of those that believe as you do world wide,  they have to prove you're wrong,  and they can't prove a negitive,  he/they have already lost their argument.
                                                                                                              :shrug:
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Offline crashdive123

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I believe in "the other side" (any John Edward fans out there?).  I believe that our loved ones that have passed on are waiting for us.

In the volumes of information that the home hospice folks provided (they were fantastic btw) there was a passage that read something like....near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate, claiming to see relatives that have passed.

Toward the end, my MIL recounted that earlier in the day she had a visit from her Mom and that they talked for quite a while.  I understand that there is no scientific explanation, and why the information provided called it hallucinating.

There is no doubt in my mind that she had a visit from the other side.  Call it belief, faith, or something that can't be explained.  I am comfortable with my belief of what it was.

Except that it can be explained, you just said so your self. It was explained to you by the literature they gave you, ie.. "near the end it is not uncommon for patients to hallucinate"

Quote
Neuroscientist's are thoroughly convinced that near death experiences are things that happen when normal brain function is disrupted and the brain is shutting down.... dementia..

She was basically drunk/high as a kite. Nothing more, nothing less.

Given the way bogus ancient superstitions have stunted scientific advancement/understanding for so much of human history, yet science has overcome, and explained so much of what was previously attributed to magic an other assorted nonsense (including various causes hallucinations), to say that such things can not be explained is at best ignorant.

You may not be aware of just how much science has been advancing in recent years. They are getting a pretty decent handle on the brain, they can now see neurons firing.



Your are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.  My Mother In Law was not on any pain medication whatsoever.  Maybe you should have asked if you were actually interested in a discussion.

Discussions are great, but troll like behavior - not so much.

Offline Old Philosopher

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Is it just me, or this this sort of strange?
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2014, 07:13:16 PM »
I put this in here because it could quickly veer into the ozone if enough theories are voiced.

Since i got the Science Channel on my cable, I've been watching a lot of it. A couple statistics got thrown around, so I started contemplating these facts...again.

Human adaptation/'evolution' is pretty darn unique. And it's timeline is pretty mysterious, IMO.

Consider if you will:

Science tells us that we spent several million years grunting and throwing sticks at each other.
Then one day someone decided to tie a rock to a stick, and we entered the Stone Age.
Where we stayed for approximately 3.4 Million years.

Somehow we got fire and rocks together in the right combination, and entered the Bronze Age
Where we stayed for approximately 2,500 years.

We got to mixing minerals up in our fires, and interred the Iron Age.
Where we stayed for over 500 years.

The Industrial Revolution, a couple hundred years ago, officially lasted 80 years.
The Information Revolution we've been stuck in for a mere 20.

150 years ago during the Civil War, an arm or leg wound meant amputation.  Starting about 1950 (100 years later) we're sewing limbs back on, and transplanting organs.  Today, we're keeping our hearts beating with electronic devices sewn into our bodies.

The first telegram via Morse code was transmitted in 1838. Today, we have more data processing power in our cell phones than was used to put a man on the moon, and instead of telegraph, we communicate without wires via watch-sized video screens (ala Dick Tracy comics).

Speaking of the moon, here's where it really start to boggle my mind. The Wright Brothers flew 200 feet at an elevation of 10 feet in 1903. SIXTY THREE years later, Man walked on the moon!  It took us from the time of Icarus until 1903 to "grow wings", and then BOOM, we're walking in space.  What's up with THAT?

The progress of human technology, from discovering fire to WiFi is pretty anomalous. It's beyond what might be called "exponential growth".  It's a mystery, to me.

Any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 07:23:08 PM by Old Philosopher »
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Offline imnukensc

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It is mind boggling, isn't it?

I think a couple of factors that come into play are the ability to transfer information quickly and a larger population.  A larger population means there's a lot more smart people out there that can use that information (what ever it might be) and expand on it creating even more new information.  As far as transferring info quickly, it wasn't that long ago that information from one continent to the next got there by sailing ship.  Now its transferred in milliseconds.

I'm sure there must be other factors, also, but those are the two that jump out at me.
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Offline Malcolm

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The progress of human technology, from discovering fire to WiFi is pretty anomalous. It's beyond what might be called "exponential growth".  It's a mystery, to me.

Thank you for that post and I have wondered what the next 10 years alone will provide and demonstrate.

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Nice to see the thread turning around to matters that be.  And not responding to trolls.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Thank you for that post and I have wondered what the next 10 years alone will provide and demonstrate.

Graphene, it's applications and inference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene

Or, to put it in the words of one rather excitable individual:

Quote
GRAPHENE


Technology helps the world advance. As humans it's in our nature to investigate, innovate and solve problems. This curiosity means we make things, create things and develop new technologies. You can look back thousands of years for basic examples of technology pushing civilization forward.

Most people don't understand the rapid change technology has on their life...or the speed at which change occurs.
 
The computer industry calls this trend ' Moore 's Law'. It dictates that computer processing power doubles every 18 months.
 
200 times stronger than steel...150,000 times thinner than a human hair...more
flexible than a sheet of paper.
     
You may have heard about Graphene.

If you haven't, it's a newly discovered, very special refined form of graphite.
 
It's a one-atom-thick sheet of densely packed carbon atoms arranged in a honeycomb lattice.
 
Take a look:
 
Put simply, it's a sheet of carbon atoms 150,000 times thinner than a human hair.
 
Under a powerful microscope, it looks like chicken wire.
 
But what's so special about it?
 
Everything!

For starters, it's 200 times stronger than structural steel...
 
It's so strong you could suspend an elephant from a single strand of Graphene...and the strand would not break.

It's extremely lightweight too...
 
Soon, everything from bicycles and boats to airplanes and cars could be made out of Graphene composites.
 
 And when they are, their energy efficiency and durability could skyrocket.

But that's just the beginning of what this new 'smart material' can do...
 
Not only is it the strongest material researchers have ever tested ? it's also one of the best conductors man has ever found.
 
IBM has already created a graphene-based processor capable of executing 100 billion cycles per second.
 
Researchers believe that in the future, a graphene credit card could store as much information as today's computers.
 
Be clear...
 
This one material alone could prove morerevolutionary than ? and soon REPLACE ? plastic, Kevlar and the silicon chip     
   
 
  Kiss goodbye to shattered screens         
   
In fact, it's such a breakthrough that the first two scientists to successfully produce single-atom-thick crystals of graphene were awarded the 2010 Nobel Prize in Physics.
 
And for good reason...
 
In just two years, over 200 companies from a wide array of industries have researched the magical potential of graphene...
 
Scientists in the US and China are already using tiny graphene-based probes to target and identify tumours in live mice. They hope similar graphene-based particles could shuttle cancer drugs to tumours...or even kill tumour cells directly!
Engineers at Northwest University ,  Seattle , found that specially crafted graphene electrodes could allow a lithium-ion battery ? like those found in your smartphone or Toyota Prius ? to charge 10 times faster and hold 10 times more power.
And in 2011, chemists at Rice University, Houston, created graphene-based thin films ? unlocking the secret to incredibly flexible, super-durable touch screens and solar cells that can wrap around just about anything...
 
 The Smallest Revolution in History...
   
Down at the molecular level there's a lot of friction. Particles can stick together really easily. This means new and complicated structures can be formed.
 
Today scientists are experimenting with different conditions to see what sorts of new molecular structures they can create.
 
The results are astonishing. Some look like thin wires...
 
     
Some look like pancakes...
 
 Others look like flowers...
       
All these different molecular structures have different properties.
 
And soon they'll change the way we live...
 
From solar panels you can spray onto your roof...to computers and batteries so small they are invisible. From mobile phones that you can stretch, twist and even imbed into your clothing...they'll make stronger houses...tougher cars...and even make us healthier!
 
Medical researchers are already looking at using nano-particles to deliver drugs or hunt down cancerous tumors.
 
 Just imagine 'nano medicines' patrolling your body, hunting down diseases and zapping problems as soon as they arise...
 
 
Samsung have already said its flexible displays should enter full-scale production later this year ? and it expects to have a dozen more graphene-based products on the market within the next five.
 
IBM, Nokia and Apple are hot on their heels too.
 
 Touch screens...processor chips...casings...a nd batteries in everything from PCs and HD TVs to tablets, mobile phones and hybrids could be all made with graphene.

It could change entire industries...econom ies...and our lives.
 
Imagine...
 
HD TVs as thin as wallpaper...
 
Smart phones so skinny and flexible you can roll them up and put them behind your ear...and so durable you can beat them with a hammer!

It's mind-blowing.
 
Imagine how our world ? and your life ? would change if the batteries that run your iPhone...your Kindle...and your laptop held 10 TIMES more power and charged 10 TIMES faster than they do now...
 
If you could eliminate breast cancer or prostate tumours with a simple injection...or by swallowing a graphene-charged pill...
 
If your house were strong enough to withstand a bush fire ? and your windows processed enough solar energy to heat your home in winter and cool it in the summer...
 
If the car you drove were six times lighter and 20 times stronger...

 
The effects would be staggering!

 
Fuel-efficiency would shoot through the roof.
 
People would live longer, healthier lives.
 
Cars and airplanes would be lighter, faster and safer than ever before.
 
And electronics of every type would be launched into an era of unprecedented growth and evolution.
 
This is just a taste of the cutting-edge innovations coming in the Molecular Age...
 
....innovations that will reshape the future in the months and years ahead...and it's starting now.

 
You're looking at a simultaneous eruption of new-age technologies that will alter our lives on a scale not seen for 100 years

 
All this technological change and innovation will transform the world...
'Nano batteries' will charge your mobile in seconds...and even power whole cities...
'Smartphones' will carry the computing power of IBM's Watson Supercomputer...
A new era of computing mobility ? none of the solid rectangular things we carry now but flexible, wearable devices...
Handheld 'breathalyses' will diagnose disease in seconds...
Bionic limbs with human fluidity and dexterity, but the strength of Superman!
Spacecraft with the capacity to take us beyond our solar system into places and worlds never explored...


Science Fiction?  Who knows....?

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Offline Old Philosopher

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Nice to see the thread turning around to matters that be.  And not responding to trolls.
Aye, Sir Knight! Trolls are of no matter. Look not upon their countenance, nor be mindful of their vulgarity, and they disappear into the mists. Onward! Our quest awaits!
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Offline Trkbusa06

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Large bird, huh? Well, at that distance maybe it was a Thunderbird. Now that opens a whole new can o' worms.

Well, I'm just trying to say the bird would be much bigger than a finch like bird....perhaps it was the thought to be extinct giant yellow Condor  :shrug:

Peregrine falcons are MUCH bigger than finches lol. Also, they have been documented at reaching speeds of over 200mph in a dive.

Offline crashdive123

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Re: Is it just me, or this this sort of strange?
« Reply #143 on: March 09, 2014, 06:18:37 AM »
I put this in here because it could quickly veer into the ozone if enough theories are voiced.

Since i got the Science Channel on my cable, I've been watching a lot of it. A couple statistics got thrown around, so I started contemplating these facts...again.

Human adaptation/'evolution' is pretty darn unique. And it's timeline is pretty mysterious, IMO.

Consider if you will:

Science tells us that we spent several million years grunting and throwing sticks at each other.
Then one day someone decided to tie a rock to a stick, and we entered the Stone Age.
Where we stayed for approximately 3.4 Million years.

Somehow we got fire and rocks together in the right combination, and entered the Bronze Age
Where we stayed for approximately 2,500 years.

We got to mixing minerals up in our fires, and interred the Iron Age.
Where we stayed for over 500 years.

The Industrial Revolution, a couple hundred years ago, officially lasted 80 years.
The Information Revolution we've been stuck in for a mere 20.

150 years ago during the Civil War, an arm or leg wound meant amputation.  Starting about 1950 (100 years later) we're sewing limbs back on, and transplanting organs.  Today, we're keeping our hearts beating with electronic devices sewn into our bodies.

The first telegram via Morse code was transmitted in 1838. Today, we have more data processing power in our cell phones than was used to put a man on the moon, and instead of telegraph, we communicate without wires via watch-sized video screens (ala Dick Tracy comics).

Speaking of the moon, here's where it really start to boggle my mind. The Wright Brothers flew 200 feet at an elevation of 10 feet in 1903. SIXTY THREE years later, Man walked on the moon!  It took us from the time of Icarus until 1903 to "grow wings", and then BOOM, we're walking in space.  What's up with THAT?

The progress of human technology, from discovering fire to WiFi is pretty anomalous. It's beyond what might be called "exponential growth".  It's a mystery, to me.

Any thoughts on this?

I think that this has a lot to do with man's quest to explore the unexplored and a great thirst for knowledge.  Each and every technological advance throughout history has meant that these things could be achieve easier.  Of course many of those advances also meant that man's conquest over other men could also be achieved easier, but I digress.....

Just in our lifetimes the advances (as you have pointed out) have been incredible.  Yes, some would say the stuff that science fiction was made of.  Heck - I was soooooooo happy when they did away with "party lines" (you younger guys and gals might have to look that one up) ;)

With each advance comes a new understanding and a new opportunity to achieve even more and for it to occur quicker.

Offline Old Philosopher

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Regardless of what accounts for the quantum leaps in technology after eons of stagnation, there is one thing that is even spookier.

I find it hard to chalk it up to mere 'imagination" when I look at people like Jules Vern and his atomic submarine, Roddenberry and Star Trek technology, and even Chester Gould (e.g. Dick Tracy's wrist radio/TV communicator).  I can't remember the guy's name, but years before the Titanic sailed, he wrote a fictional story about an 'unsinkable' ship called "Titan" that met a similar fate as the Titanic.
I won't even bring up Leonardo da Vinci.

Are these guys tapping into something we don't really understand, to have such foresight?
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Offline PetrifiedWood

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It is mind boggling, isn't it?

I think a couple of factors that come into play are the ability to transfer information quickly and a larger population.  A larger population means there's a lot more smart people out there that can use that information (what ever it might be) and expand on it creating even more new information.  As far as transferring info quickly, it wasn't that long ago that information from one continent to the next got there by sailing ship.  Now its transferred in milliseconds.

I'm sure there must be other factors, also, but those are the two that jump out at me.

Yep. Rapid advancements follow new modes of rapid information dissemination. Cave drawings, written language, printing press, telegraph, radio, internet, etc. each one would not have been developed if it were not for the sharing of information allowed by it's predecessors.

Offline wsdstan

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Regardless of what accounts for the quantum leaps in technology after eons of stagnation, there is one thing that is even spookier.

I find it hard to chalk it up to mere 'imagination" when I look at people like Jules Vern and his atomic submarine, Roddenberry and Star Trek technology, and even Chester Gould (e.g. Dick Tracy's wrist radio/TV communicator).  I can't remember the guy's name, but years before the Titanic sailed, he wrote a fictional story about an 'unsinkable' ship called "Titan" that met a similar fate as the Titanic.
I won't even bring up Leonardo da Vinci.

Are these guys tapping into something we don't really understand, to have such foresight?

I don't think its as much tapped into something we don't understand as it is their thought process is such that they think of things we don't.  I have often thought there are people who think differently than most of the population.  Some of them are good at math at a level we don't comprehend.  Some are good at looking at a device and seeing ways to make it faster, smaller, and lighter.  Some are good at imagining new devices by examining old devices.  It might be something in their DNA.  Look at Bill Gates.  He developed an idea about computers and software applications that IBM's managers didn't see coming and turned it into a fortune.  IBM had the foundation technology but didn't see the business opportunity or have the vision for that opportunity that Gates had. 

Much earlier Jonathon Browning had the ability to visualize how a mechanical device worked and turned it into ability to design sophisticated firearms that others didn't imagine.  His designs are still used today and while some have been modified none work any better than the original.

The Wright Brothers, although they were not the first to fly heavier than air craft, understood air flow and design to start.  They didn't understand much else as they crashed.  Others took their idea and went from there.
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Offline Old Philosopher

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Yeah, no discounting the imagination aspect of seeing the potential in existing technology (i.e., Gates), but what about the guy who "sees" nuclear powered submarines before knowledge of the atom even exists?
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Offline wsdstan

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Yeah, no discounting the imagination aspect of seeing the potential in existing technology (i.e., Gates), but what about the guy who "sees" nuclear powered submarines before knowledge of the atom even exists?

Same thing.  He visualized a situation where mankind developed a power source.  While this doesn't address your thought of how did they do it, it does address a critical element.  None of the futurists got it exactly right.  There is no way to prove that they are or are not gifted with some sense the rest of us don't have but if you read what Verne studied regarding submarines it explains what he had for a foundation to write his fiction.
http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=741
 
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Offline Old Philosopher

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....While this doesn't address your thought of how did they do it, it does address a critical element.  None of the futurists got it exactly right.  ...
Some came awfully close, though.
One thing about these "insights", or "predictions".  Skeptic immediately point out these discrepancies as proof that nothing special is going on. But now, with scientific acceptance of The String Theory, it's easy to explain why.
Edgar Cayce predicted catastrophic earth changes. His medical diagnosis and treatment ability is well documented, so why would he be off in left field with other things that "came to him"?  He saw no time-line for this, though. Another infamous prophet is Michael Scallion. He predicted very similar earth changes to occur around 1998. The Toyas (man and wife) came up with something similar about the same time (1980's).  When relaying his account of what he "saw", Scallion pointed out that it was a "probability, if something doesn't change the outcome". 
If you go with the new view of the String Theory, there is an infinite number of "futures" available at any given instant. Even minute external influences can alter which "future" unfolds.
So if a futurist happens to "tap into" a particular time-line in his "vision", that's not to say some minor event (or events) won't alter that time-line, either slightly, or greatly.
Something to ponder, anyway....
I only do what the voices in my wife's head tell her to tell me to do.