Author Topic: Gas prices  (Read 797 times)

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Offline boomer

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Gas prices
« on: May 20, 2022, 01:17:32 PM »
In another thread today the price of gas and diesel was mentioned. Don't want to hijack that discussion so ..

After looking into it a bit and feeling the pinch at the pump it appears

1. The cost of crude has not gone up by much and has been going down (understand it's not an overnight process)
 
2. Refining costs have not increased

3. No new taxes have been levied

So, what's the deal?

Just curious about what thoughts folks have.

Offline Mad-max

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2022, 05:08:50 AM »
My response would very much be conspiracy plot centered.  So I just won't ⁹go any further
huh?

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2022, 08:52:26 AM »
 Well off the top of my head I remember about a couple of years ago we were energy independent, not only did we have enough crude for ourselves, we exported oil to other parts of the world, now under the rule of a new administration who has openly declared war on the manufacturing and use of fossil fuel in this country, we are now dependent on our enemies such as Russia, Iran, and others who can squeeze us at their hearts content for their oil.
 Also, this administration has taken our tax money and handed it over to China to subsidize their Green Energy research and manufacturing, and also paid to give away free (at US taxpayer expense) Solar installations, along with drunken sailor giveaways on Covid payments, this has caused a backlash on the economy and driven inflation through the roof.
 I could continue pointing out the damage that these rabid political fools have done to this once grand country, and don't get me started on their open border and soft on crime policies.

 I hope this helps to answer your question Tony and Boomer ?
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Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2022, 12:33:25 PM »
curse your biden voting friends, neighbors, relatives and co workers.   The nose dive of the  energy sector in America was not serendipitous.   
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 02:35:54 PM by Mannlicher »

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2022, 01:32:35 PM »
It's true we were independent in terms of petro until the last year of Obama presidency when export restrictions were lifted.


Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2022, 02:29:34 AM »
Pure greed.  But don't worry, the oil companies recorded all-time records profits this year!  So it's all worthwhile.

 

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2022, 02:30:10 AM »

Offline crashdive123

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2022, 04:20:35 AM »
You can continue to believe that it is pure greed if you choose.  You would be wrong, but you can continue to believe it.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2022, 08:38:29 AM »
Not sure how pure the greed is but it's certainly a very big factor. It is a complex issue and maybe it's juset easier and in some ways satisfying to blame a politician folks dislike - even if it's just habit.


There a number of industries posting record profits. It seems a mixture of Covid restrictions lifting, decades of consolidation in ownership and old school avarice. In terms of gas prices I don't know what the deal is.

The Covid relief funds were essential to keeping businesses afloat and helped a lot of children and lower income folks. I don't know of any who sent the checks back. Covid, whichever way things go, will have long lasting social effects long after the medical part plays out.

All the National Forests and Parks are closed in my area. Some are burning and some are waiting to burn. Closures extend to County Levels for open spaces (of which there is a lot). So whatever way gas prices go we're still going to have to deal with climate issues.

At least few if any are denying petro is expensive. Maybe that's progress?


Offline hayshaker

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2022, 11:22:47 AM »
greed has absolutely nothing to do with this,  this is a planned destruction of the united states
and please don't get me started on the destruction of our nations food supply,
of which is by design not accident. buy more food grow a garden,  and god help america

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2022, 07:35:26 AM »
That's an interesting take on things hayshaker.

I'm not sure who, how what you say is happening could be orchestrated.  The shadowy "they" lurking in the background, the secret cabal always blamed or something or someone unnamed? I don't know. Petro is traded on a global market as are food supplies so it's hard to draw general conclusions from local conditions except those of the "Fevers don't cause disease" variety.

Old time greed certainly plays a part as do decades of industry consolidation and failed ecological assumptions.

There is one thread woven through our complex problems and that is Climate Change. Some still resist the evidence of human contribution but no rational person can ignore the consequences. Those undeniable consequences will force us to do things differently. The fact we've  waited this long means we have rapidly decreasing periods of time to make changes. That fact alone can create chaos.

The time of petro based energy is ending. We'll still have many uses for petro but we'll use it differently. The time of current agricultural practices is also ending. People will still eat but our food will be grown differently. We really no choice in these and related areas, other than suicide, of course.

The unavoidable changes forced upon us (by ourselves) will spread through our social arrangements and possibly even to concepts of private property and other foundational social concepts.

It's understandable people are afraid of the changes we have no choice but to make. Certainly those whose wealth and status are bound up in the current arrangements are resisting but that is to be expected. In the end it doesn't matter. We have no choice. Except total collapse.

We're going to have some rough times for sure. I don't know how things will play out or who the winners and losers will be. It's doubtful I'll be around to see it.

But make no mistake we're already in it and there's no turning back.

Our duty is to leave a better world for those who follow.

Offline Moe M.

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2022, 11:15:41 PM »

  Spoken like a true card carrying "New Worlder", we already had a great world, now we are on the decline, mostly due to the those who believe in Collectivism and those who believe that they are smarter than the average citizen and that they alone have an obligation to rule the masses.
  Climate Change is not a cure, it's a vehicle by which the elitist who believe they will lead the more orderly New World into a brave new future, Green Energy may very well be the future in years to come but it's certainly not in the near future, Solar and Wind is not sustainable without the use of Petro fuels to manufacture hardware, coal and nuclear energy still produce the energy to charge the batteries that that power electric vehicles, Petro fueled heavy machines are used to mine the raw materials to produce batteries, and when all those green energy batteries die, they can't be recycled, they become planetary waste that pollute the environment that they sit on or in.
 Lets consider Ethanol, it is one of the first new Green energy idea to come out of the Climate Change 'henny pennies', it was such a good idea that they got a law passed mandating the manufacture of millions of gallons pe year in the US and that it be mixed with auto fuel, it turns out that it takes about a bushel of corn (that's what ethanol is made from), they said it was a "cheap" way to extend Petro and "clean the air", but in reality, not only do engines not 
like ethanol, the use of corn for fuel has caused food shortages across the globe, has driven the price of food corn up which in turn affects the cost of just about everything that people use everyday, from fuel to groceries, to home goods, to clothing, and recreational goods.
 Was it a good idea after all, especially when Ethanol actually costs more to produce than auto fuel, do you know that a wind turbine used to make electricity costs millions of dollars, does not produce enough electricity through out it's life time to pay for itself, and when they breakdown they are not worth fixing, they are scrapped and replaced with another new unit that can't pay for itself, not exactly sustainable in my book.
 Solar, from what I understand is far more efficient than wind, but it's also expensive to build and install, that's why it's almost totally subsidized by the government, but it's not produced here, we pay for it through taxes and the national debt, giving billions of dollars to Communist China, again, thanks to the democrats.
 I agree that the cost of fuel at the pumps and the increases in food at the grocer, or building supplies at the lumber yard is because the democrat run machine has decimated the US production of coal, gas, and oil in an ongoing agenda of ending it, and in doing so ending our energy independence, making us dependent on our enemies who can raise their prices and create shortages at will.
 
 Collectivist tell us we have to suffer high energy cost, food shortages, and higher overall costs of most necessities of life, we also need to accept the loss of some of our rights and liberties, suffer higher taxes and inflation, and yes, even property ownership in America as we have known it, we need to accept these sacrifices for the good of all and of our planet, we need to just be happy to exist, for me just existing is not living, and it certainly isn't freedom.     

 As for Climate Change, I believe it's happening, that it's just Mother Nature doing what she's done since the beginning of time, and those who have the belief that mankind and farting Cows is the cause of Climate Change or that man can alter nature by changing their lifestyle or throwing wads of cash at it, don't flatter yourself, you ain't that important.
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Offline Moe M.

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2022, 11:26:03 PM »


  What going down ?

 Here in my area it's $5.49.9 a gallon, I hear on the news that it's over $10.00 a gallon in CA.,  greed, BS, what's different today than it was in the previous administration when I was paying $2.49 a gallon ?
 We both know the answer to that question, only I'm not ashamed to say it. 
In youth we learn,   with age we understand.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2022, 01:12:59 PM »
Mor you make some good points. Some if the ways you arrive st them though don't bear much scrutiny

It would certainly be simpler if we could correctly say this or that political party caused our current climate problems or outsourced or manufacturing base or any of the rest. Simpler but far from accurate.

This started with gas prices at the pump so in that area what can we accurately say?

The amount of vehicle fuel has not declined.
No additional federal taxes have been levied.
The Covid pandemic slashed fuel profits
Every manufacturer of vehicle fuels reported record profits.
Prices keep rising as do profits.

Corporations are gouging the consumer, that's all. Why? Because they can.
Some folks may say "Hey, that's the way it goes." Others may ask why a very heavily subsidized (with our tax money) business sector gets to hose the citizens at the pump.

Ethanol may or not be worthwhile as fuel so it is worth investigating. Not as efficient as petro but recall Diesel designed his engines partly to avoid a total reliance on petro at a time when farmers were already being squeezed. But if we're talking corn how about High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS)? We subsidize that like crazy and have for a long time even though we know it is generally bad for human health and among the leading causes of obesity. We even put it on food labels and it still flies off the shelves.

I don't know of any technology that is free from problems. Solar is already more cost effective than other means of power generation on a KWH basis without oven considering massive petro subsidies we provide. Of course people who own our electrical grids (a co op in my area but in name only)or own petro based corporations don't want things to change. Neither did buggy whip makers back in their day.

I have nothing against Capitalism per se but unregulated Capitalism quickly results in piracy. Like gas prices at the pump today or insulin or ... well, the recent failed coup plot.

We form societies to assure liberties and security not to become slaves to the most rapacious among us.




Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2022, 04:23:56 PM »
It's funny how the left insists we have to make sweeping changes or face extinction, while also saying that in order to save the world, we need a massive population reduction.

Every bit of heat and energy on this planet comes from the sun.  There were periods in earth's history when it was much warmer than it is now, and there were no automobiles or coal fired power plants to blame.

I think that as a nation, we should put the economic prosperity of Americans first, instead of crippling ourselves with environmental restrictions while developing countries pollute orders of magnitude worse than we do, and profit from it to our disadvantage.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2022, 08:01:44 PM »
Hey PW. How you doing? Trust things are going well for you and yours.

With the whole gas prices thing we're all likely feeling the bite. I know I am.
But I don't look at things as "left" or "right". I just try to look at the facts, try to understand them and then look for outcomes. That's all. But that's just me. Someone has good ideas that results in good outcomes that's success.

The facts of the climate problems we're experiencing these days is centered on human technological processes and contributions to disrupting a highly complex, incompletely understood system. 99.9% of all the people who study the problem and the consensus in all valid peer reviewed published literature goes in one direction. If someone wants to disagree with that consensus that's fine but personally I would like to see the data. I've never believed scientists are infallible but there has to be some representation of the work before a claim is accepted.

The issue of population is also very complex and the discussions remain more theoretical at this juncture. Carry capacity, which is the question, has a broad range of assumptions. Some hold the preferred population at 2 billion humans while others basing their work on differing assumpts prefer 7 or 10 billion. I don't know.

Regardless change is on the horizon. In 10 years or less the sale of new personal vehicles in a lot of Europe and parts of the US will be prohibited. That's on the books now  I live in the sticks and there are frequent sightings of EV cars and some trucks already. Our major manufacturers are looking to roll out more and different EV very soon. So it goes.

I certainly agree we should look to our own prosperity at home. We used to lead the world in terms of industrial design in a number of areas. We used to manufacture important things people everywhere wanted. We had a strong middle class and our kids could expect that by applying themselves and working they could build a good and likely better life. I'd like to see us create that and more again. I don't want to go back to 1950 though. Been there, tinny transistors and bullet bras although a pan head would be nice. Rather look towards 2050 though I'll not likely see it. It willbtake all of us to get there. I do know that.

To do it though we're going to have to deal with facts and outcomes.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 11:04:20 PM by boomer »

Offline PetrifiedWood

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2022, 06:56:45 PM »

Offline PetrifiedWood

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Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2022, 07:47:33 AM »
Thank you for the links PW

Took a look and read through them. There are, of course, many opinion pieces on the interweb devoted to every imaginable subject and while reasonable points may be raised they are still opinions. I can't begin to know  them all. There are also innumerable examples of screeds pushing partisan agendas of every description, some subtly some otherwise.

Personally, I'm more inclined to rely on a scientific approach and developing consensus on issues. Granted as a lay reader it takes a while to understand the arguments and data but is likely more reliable overall. That doesn't mean conclusions I draw represent anything other than my own. I'm neither scientist or researcher.

I really don't care about Left or Right or any other political views. I want to make my own decisions. Humanity is far from perfect, I prove that myself often enough, but we have to work with what we have. And like it or not what we have right now is a looming crises that should rationally be impossible to ignore.

Folks may choose to believe or not, accept or not, deny or not but it really makes no difference. It is happening regardless. If acknowledging the human contributions to Climate problems and ameliorating them to the extent we can produces better outcomes that's where I'll place my bet.

Others may choose differently.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 07:54:10 AM by boomer »

Offline crashdive123

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2022, 09:44:26 AM »

Personally, I'm more inclined to rely on a scientific approach and developing consensus on issues.

I find it interesting that you chose this phrase.  As I'm sure you would agree, the scientific approach or method does not involve consensus but rather involves observation, formulation of a question, developing a hypothesis, predicting an outcome, testing the hypothesis and then use the test results to confirm the hypothesis or develop a new one that can be tested.

Consensus never enters the picture in science based studies.  If it did and were to rule the day, the earth would be flat.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2022, 10:12:35 AM »
Perhaps the phrasing could have been more clear.

" Consensus reached among intradisciplinary researchers evaluating results of valid research and subsequent findings after peer review along with interdisciplinary and public review .." just seemed cumbersome.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2022, 12:48:20 PM »
Better get Facebook and Twitter to censor the inconvenient facts instead of dealing with them.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/06/13/biden-senior-climate-and-energy-policy-advisor-demands-social-media-companies-immediately-block-content-identifying-biden-policy-as-source-of-energy-inflation/

Thank you PW, Had to research that one some more.

It seem a classic disinformation. A few words out of a much longer bit, stripped if context and meaning then twisted into something very different.

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2022, 06:20:35 AM »
to paraphrase what Justice Potter Stewart said about porn, I may know know what it is, but I know it when I see it.  Same applies to the drastic and inescapable rise in gas prices.   It's real, and it all took place after biden stole the election.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2022, 06:28:35 AM »
" .., biden stole the election" is not the kind of thing that suggests objectivity.

Just saying

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2022, 07:18:25 AM »
* Federal fuel taxes have not increased

* Refining capacity has not decreased

* Supply has not decreased

* Corporate profits have sky rocketed increased

Granted petro is based on global markets conditions in part and the Ukraine situation in terms of useage demands and supply is a factor. As we have also seen in the past playing politics with petro is nothing new.
And petro, like every sector of the economy, took a big hit during Covid lockdowns.

The reasons we're  paying so much at the pump might be argued. The only thing that seems clear at this point is that we're paying so much more at the pump.

Pushing $4.60 in my area. That hurts


Offline hayshaker

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2022, 12:13:16 PM »
MOE what you said earlier truer words never spoken wow,
if we are to look at the whole picture it all ammounts to planetary de population

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2022, 03:26:49 PM »
I made no pretense about being objective,  just stating that gas is over 100% higher then it was a year and a half ago. 

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2022, 04:12:46 PM »
Fair enough Mannlicher.

Anybody can prove gas prices are higher.  Nobody could prove Biden stole the election.

Just pointing that out in the interests of reality.

Not likely going to change anything. Certainly not gas prices.

Offline Mannlicher

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2022, 06:27:48 AM »
it must be comforting, Boomer, to live in an alternate reality.

Offline boomer

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Re: Gas prices
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2022, 10:50:38 AM »
We agree gas prices are higher.

Seems we don't agree Biden won the election.

If you have any evidence the election was stolen please let it be known. There are folks in DC who'd like to hear it as would responsible citizens everywhere.

If there was any credible evidence at all we'd likely have heard about it by now. But if folks are just frustrated the coup attempt failed that's something else.

Regardless trust you'll stay safe in the heat.